ordinary users are being locked out of any private creative endeavours

[b9k9kiwi]

As I suspected ... ... ordinary users are being locked out of any private creative endeavours.

I havealos suspect that with the advent of Trainzmesh any tools that might allow a user to examine the mesh will not be forthcoming (i notice that some recent Trainzmesh asset uploads also have the textures locked so that they cannot be edited). As if kitbashing on my own PC is somehow regarded as immoral.

Now I discover that that TRS19/TRS22 Tzarc files are now described as Tzarc 2 and are not compatible with TZarchiver (latest version).

 

[pware]

I don't quite see your point. Unless you do not believe that creators have every right to protect their work if that is what they want.

Unfortunately, there is no way of telling if someone who want to "kitbash" the work of others is totally moral and has no intention of using that work in their own distributed content. It is the same argument about why do you need to lock your doors and windows when you leave for work if everyone in your community is honest, moral and law abiding.

 

[b9k9kiwi]

I don't quite see your point. Unless you do not believe that creators have every right to protect their work if that is what they want.

Unfortunately, there is no way of telling if someone who want to "kitbash" the work of others is totally moral and has no intention of using that work in their own distributed content. It is the same argument about why do you need to lock your doors and windows when you leave for work if everyone in your community is honest, moral and law abiding.

This is just sophistry ... I'm not questioning the outcome, I am questioning the intent.

 

[afe_uy]

As I understand it, that was the reason for implementing trainzmesh ... to stop copying IM meshes. That's why right now on Discord for example one of the main topics is still how to modify very old meshes ... since they can't touch the newer ones.
Texture reskinning doesn't seem bad to me, but I don't like "kitbashing" when they try to modify other people's meshes instead of making their own. If you are able to learn how to use Blender to modify, then you can also model yourself ... oh yeah, of course that's more work.

 

[pcas1986]

....

I havealos suspect that with the advent of Trainzmesh any tools that might allow a user to examine the mesh will not be forthcoming (i notice that some recent Trainzmesh asset uploads also have the textures locked so that they cannot be edited). As if kitbashing on my own PC is somehow regarded as immoral.

...

There is a Trainzmesh viewer available by RileyZZZ on Gumroad for $US5.00 but its strictly a viewer only and no editing. Even IMEditor didn't allow editing of meshes except for attachment points, materials and textures. Its great for repairing assets.

I think IM changed to Trainzmesh due to the need to support PBR materials. I'm sure N3V said that way back when TRS19 was introduced.

I don't have a problem with kit bashing since Trainz creators have been doing it since the beginning. That's a benefit of mesh libraries, bogey assets, corona assets, etc.

Modern techniques and tools for UV mapping must make repaints/reskinning almost impossible for later models. That's a side effect and not an intent to prevent repaints.

 

[b9k9kiwi]

As I understand it, that was the reason for implementing trainzmesh ... to stop copying IM meshes. That's why right now on Discord for example one of the main topics is still how to modify very old meshes ... since they can't touch the newer ones.
Texture reskinning doesn't seem bad to me, but I don't like "kitbashing" when they try to modify other people's meshes instead of making their own. If you are able to learn how to use Blender to modify, then you can also model yourself ... oh yeah, of course that's more work.

Don't worry, I'm quite old so I'm going to die soon ... so I won't irritate you any more.

 

[ricomon35]

As I understand it, that was the reason for implementing trainzmesh ... to stop copying IM meshes. That's why right now on Discord for example one of the main topics is still how to modify very old meshes ... since they can't touch the newer ones.
Texture reskinning doesn't seem bad to me, but I don't like "kitbashing" when they try to modify other people's meshes instead of making their own. If you are able to learn how to use Blender to modify, then you can also model yourself ... oh yeah, of course that's more work.

Most Trainz kit-bashing processes do not modify a mesh, but rather add/delete separate meshes from other (usually similar) locos or traincars by using attachment maker to add/remove bells, lights, guards, flanges or whatever.
Using alpha-masks to remove unwanted mesh parts as well. For example, I have a reworked turntable of pencil42's NG36 Turntable A-frame 50 foot 7 tracks on the DLS, that uses an alpha-mask to (visually) remove the ground skirt, making it useable in constricted areas, i.e inside the Alpine Engine House I modeled for @dangavel's DSPP route.

I do agree that many of the released kitbashes are not well done at all, look awful and make too many draw calls.


Rico

 

[pcas1986]

....
Using alpha-masks to remove unwanted mesh parts as well. For example, I have a reworked turntable of pencil42's NG36 Turntable A-frame 50 foot 7 tracks on the DLS, that uses an alpha-mask to (visually) remove the ground skirt, making it useable in constricted areas, ...


Rico

Well, now I know what they mean by alpha masks in those Discord posts. Seems obvious now but I hadn't connected the dots... Thanks.

 

[ess1]

Don't worry, I'm quite old so I'm going to die soon . so I won't irritate you any more.

Imagine the fun we will have when our journey ends irritating each other!
Keep well.

 

[afe_uy]

Don't worry, I'm quite old so I'm going to die soon ... so I won't irritate you any more.

I don't worry. I'm old too although I don't have any immediate plans ... and you don't irritate me, why would you?
You have a point of view, and I have mine ...

 

[afe_uy]

I don't have a problem with kit bashing since Trainz creators have been doing it since the beginning. That's a benefit of mesh libraries, bogey assets, corona assets, etc.

Maybe the concept of "Kitbashing" is too broad ...
Of course the basis of Trainz's popularity has been the ease of using different Assets - understood as "components" - to form a whole thing.
But, for example, I have seen people trying to "take out" a smokebox from a Steamer to put another one of their own or obtained there, or trying to change a complete "cabin" for another one...
That's another thing.
I accept "Reskin" as "paint change", but not to the point of changing the appearance of the model.
And of course, besides the happy modifying artists, there are always some with not very good intentions... and that's the problem.

Modern techniques and tools for UV mapping must make repaints/reskinning almost impossible for later models. That's a side effect and not an intent to prevent repaints.

Personally I like to make UV maps to my liking and adjust them by hand, especially thinking about my own convenience to make variations later, with the same mesh and UV map.
But, for example, and I think this is what you mean, if you do the automatic Unwrap in Blender to then "bake" the texture it's a puzzle ...
I don't like that at all.
I like to keep control of what I'm doing.

 

[mick1960]

I accept "Reskin" as "paint change", but not to the point of changing the appearance of the model.

And why not, where is the problem beside your pride? There is kuid xxx and this is your creation and someone appreciates it so much that he takes it as a base to create kuid yyy. Where is your loss? Except you do payware...

And of course, besides the happy modifying artists, there are always some with not very good intentions... and that's the problem.

Yes I heard too about the loads of bucks you can make with Trainz assets. Sorry but the only thing I wouldn't tolerate is not to mention the original author!

Get used to it that we live in the age of the internet within there is nothing which can be protected in any way! So let your 'children' out in the open or keep them on your hard disk...

mick1960!

 

[afe_uy]

And why not, where is the problem beside your pride? There is kuid xxx and this is your creation and someone appreciates it so much that he takes it as a base to create kuid yyy. Where is your loss? Except you do payware...

Oh, no ...You either didn't understand me, or I didn't express myself clearly ... I try to translate as clearly as possible, but it can be difficult sometimes.
I have no problem with someone using or modifying something I've done that they're interested in ... in fact, I'm proud of it.
What I don't like is when they "forget" to mention that it's not theirs, and they happily present it on Youtube or elsewhere as their work ...
it's not nice.

Yes I heard too about the loads of bucks you can make with Trainz assets. Sorry but the only thing I wouldn't tolerate is not to mention the original author!

All my stuff is freeware, and most of it is only of interest to my compatriots (and very few of them).

 

[pcas1986]

Maybe the concept of "Kitbashing" is too broad ...
Of course the basis of Trainz's popularity has been the ease of using different Assets - understood as "components" - to form a whole thing.
But, for example, I have seen people trying to "take out" a smokebox from a Steamer to put another one of their own or obtained there, or trying to change a complete "cabin" for another one...
That's another thing.
I accept "Reskin" as "paint change", but not to the point of changing the appearance of the model.
And of course, besides the happy modifying artists, there are always some with not very good intentions... and that's the problem.

The term "kitbashing" gets used a lot in Discord and I cannot recall it being used in these forums until recently. Personally, I would rather make my own because I get more satisfaction and enjoyment that way even if it does take months or even years.

Shortly, the CRG will be releasing some repaired Andi Smith Pullman carriages that include reskins by design. I suppose we call them reskins because they literally "skin" a naked mesh. Paint is also a skin.

Personally I like to make UV maps to my liking and adjust them by hand, especially thinking about my own convenience to make variations later, with the same mesh and UV map.
But, for example, and I think this is what you mean, if you do the automatic Unwrap in Blender to then "bake" the texture it's a puzzle ...
I don't like that at all.
I like to keep control of what I'm doing.

I use whatever UV tool I think is most useful but mostly I finish it with UVPackmaster since it offers the best texel space. The result can look bizarre.
UV mapping for the purpose of reskinning in Trainz uses a different approach IMHO. i.e. you lay out the sides, front, rear, and top of a traincar to facilitate repainting.

But getting back to the original topic. I really don't think that the changes in 3D modelling we have witnessed during the Trainz years has been solely intended to thwart kit bashers or reskinners. It's merely the result of using more efficient and effective tools to produce better models.

 

[JCitron]

Don't worry, I'm quite old so I'm going to die soon ... so I won't irritate you any more.

Don't say that. . That's an awful thing to say.

 

[afe_uy]

Personally, I would rather make my own because I get more satisfaction and enjoyment that way even if it does take months or even years.

Of course ! .. I would even tell you that most of the time I am in Blender, I just go to Trainz to test and look for errors and then back to Blender. I barely work on my own Route ...

The result can look bizarre. UV mapping for the purpose of reskinning in Trainz uses a different approach IMHO. i.e. you lay out the sides, front, rear, and top of a traincar to facilitate repainting.

It can be tricky to recognize the sectors, and even more so applying a logo ... unless the mapping is intentionally planned to be repainted. And that is not always the case.
Currently, combine creating the texture with editing the UV map, starting with the rough and finishing with the small details, maximizing the map.

 

[Paulsw2]

Reskinning is an ancient and venerable art in this community and has greatly enriched our enjoyment of Trainz over the years. PBR textures are perfectly reskinnable .... unless they're locked. Which I guess is N3V's prerogative for their payware and DLC. It's a shame though as I, like many others, have got used over the years to 'improving' downloaded content for personal use.

As for 'kitbashing' I'm not sure there's ever been widespread attempts to revise meshes and then redistribute, thought I am aware it's possible to reverse engineer .im meshes. It's just that most people can't be bothered with the time and effort required.

 

[H222]

It was to allow PBR, and to prevent mesh ripping and conversion of IM files back to Blender Files.

Anything that skirted around the grey area was "sacrificed" for security's sake for those who care about how their IP is used.