Need more frames. Time for an upgrade...

[Mospaw]

It's time to upgrade my machine. The most taxing program I run is TS12, so I need to maximize performance for that without killing my wallet.

Here are my current specs:

• GIGABYTE GA-965P-DS3 LGA 775 Intel P965 Express ATX Intel Motherboard
• Intel Core 2 Duo E6600 Conroe 2.4GHz LGA 775 65W Dual-Core Processor
• Kingston HyperX 8GB (4 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) Quad Kit
• ENERMAX Noisetaker II EG495P-VE 485W ATX12V SLI Ready CrossFire Ready Power Supply
• EVGA FPB 768-P3-1360-TR GeForce GTX 460 (Fermi) 768MB 192-bit GDDR5 PCI Express 2.0 x16 HDCP Ready SLI Support Video Card

I've got a couple of 1.5TB hard drives arranged in RAID 1 on the motherboard, and the usual peripherals that don't really affect game performance. None of those will be getting upgraded if I can help it.

The system runs Windows 7 Ultimate 64 bit.

My main monitor is a Samsung 305T 30” LCD and my secondary is a Dell 2007FP turned on its side. I run Trainz at native resolution on the Samsung, which is 2560 x 1600. I run visual and quality settings maximized. Most routes are OK, but the newer routes in TS12 slow down into low teens and even single digit frame rates, which isn't acceptable.

I tried lowering the game resolution and got zero frame rate increase, even as low as 1280 x 800. I notice that my CPU usage for Trainz runs around 60%-75% at all resolutions, so although the CPU isn't completely saturated, but it's using lots of cycles.

I'm assuming it's time to upgrade my rather old CPU and motherboard (and possibly power supply).

Where is my money best spent for an upgrade? I'm pretty sure I have enough video card and memory, so it's the CPU. I can get a quad core CPU for my current motherboard or upgrade CPU and motherboard (and memory and power supply) to something newer. I'd like to spend as little as possible, but don't mind spending a few extra dollars if things will be good for a few years.

I'm also curious about going to dual video cards, but haven't seen much to indicate that will help. I'm also more of an Intel-Nvidia guy than AMD and ATI if that matters.

Thanks!

 

[fran1]

I only have 2010 but

I'm similar to you, socket 775 mobo, E8500@3.16, 8 gb ram, MSI 560gtx TI with 10000 rpm raptor drives. Win 7 64 bit.
I mainly run Dermmy's EK3, getting mid 30 fps @4000 metres no fog.
The main differences I can see between the systems are the CPU and the drives.
The drives on yours will be 5400 rpm which will slow loading time down.
The .7 ghz on the cpu will also slow you a bit.
Your GPU's more than good enough. SLI wont speed trainz up.
The easy option is a cpu, a quad core extreme just in case trainz starts to use more than 2 cores. How many FPS you will gain I dont know.

 

[JCitron]

The older processor and bus speed is big contributor to your poor performance. The old 965 P4, and so are the old iDuo2s a bit dated now for graphics through put that we expect for the latest versions of Trainz and other graphics intensive programs. Look at the newer i7s, whether Extreme or not, for better performance. The latest pin gate array is 1166 or 1,166 pins. Like any of the Intel chips, there are various flavors aimed at different parts of the wallet. For memory, you can put in 8 or 12 GB pretty inexpensively these days too. Get the fastest and most memory you can afford, if you can.

There's nothing wrong with your drives, but I would definitely go for something faster. Remember Trainz reads in a lot of little tiny bits all the time when running. Having slower drives will hamper the speed of the program. Use your older (current) drives for backup devices.

John

 

[nfotis]

A question:
Did you try overclocking the CPU and see if that makes a difference?
If yes, that would show your CPU is the limit.

At the current situation, Intel has make things confusing with multiple sockets, while AMD tries to keep the socket as stable as possible (so you can keep your motherboard for a long time)

But first, try to experiment with some CPU overclocking and tell us the results.

And you could later overclock the Nvidia card, as an experiment.
But do not overclock both subsystems at the same time, because you want to know what part contributes to different performance.

N.F.

 

[Mospaw]

Thanks for the replies!

Fran1, my boot drives are 7200 RPM drives, but they are a definite bottleneck as pretty much any hard drives are. I'd like to go SSD, but that's probably not the best choice right now for me. I suspect as JCitron pointed out, a newer i7 is the way to go.

Nfotis, that's a great idea! I tried it and my machine didn't like it one bit. Lockups and other ugliness. I don't have much of a "hack the hardware" mentality so I'm usually pretty bad at it. I did get a 5% boost to work but that was it, and I figure with my current frame rates, 5% won't be noticeable or measurable, so I'm back to stock speeds.

It's good to know I can save money by not going to SLI. Now to find a decent i7, mobo, and some memory. Any suggestions? (I like to be around $300, give or take, for the CPU and $150 or lower for the motherboard, but I'm flexible if the extra money gets lots of extra performance.)

 

[Gandalf0444]

If you want the most bang for your buck so to speak I would jump ship on Intel(at least for the time being) and go with AMD. You get more for cheaper and the AMD CPUs can now stand up to Intel's very easily.(Intel still has only a slight lead, but that is debatable with AMD's new 8 core coming soon) Unlike in the past where Intel was king.

You can get a 6 core CPU at 3.2GHz for 200 bucks at Newegg. Sounds like a bargain to me next to the Intel equivalent at more then double the price.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819103849

Just a friendly thought to save another person some money.:wave:

 

[Mospaw]

I've got no issues with AMD. For a while, out of the 8 computers in my house, only one (a laptop) was Intel-powered. The rest were various incarnations of Athlons. I even had a dual CPU Athlon MP machine for a bunch of years. I just have this perception that Intel's doing a better job right now. AMD and Intel seem to trade places on that, so maybe that perception needs reevaluation. I remember not wanting to go anywhere near a P4 when they came out. AMD's offerings ran circles around them.

I guess if I'm changing motherboards, who made the CPU doesn't really matter. Windows is going to get grumpy and need re-validation either way.

I'm not sure I need an eight core processor, but that's a different issue.

Now I've got even MORE looking to do.

 

[Gandalf0444]

I've got no issues with AMD. For a while, out of the 8 computers in my house, only one (a laptop) was Intel-powered. The rest were various incarnations of Athlons. I even had a dual CPU Athlon MP machine for a bunch of years. I just have this perception that Intel's doing a better job right now. AMD and Intel seem to trade places on that, so maybe that perception needs reevaluation. I remember not wanting to go anywhere near a P4 when they came out. AMD's offerings ran circles around them.

I guess if I'm changing motherboards, who made the CPU doesn't really matter. Windows is going to get grumpy and need re-validation either way.

I'm not sure I need an eight core processor, but that's a different issue.

Now I've got even MORE looking to do.

Nice to know someone also has a fair view on Intel and AMD and not just a fan boy.:wave:

Yea window's got mad at me for changing a DVD drive on it:hehe: So I wonder what would happen if you replaced the major parts..LOL

I don't think anyone would need an 8 core processor or a 6 core even at the moment, but I will let that be for another time because I am sure someone will come sweeping in and "over rule" me on that matter.

 

[Mospaw]

I'm sure there are valid use scenarios for lots of people where a 4, 6, or 8-core processor makes sense and even gets used.

I don't see it for me at the moment or in the foreseeable future. My Core 2 Duo actually is more than I need for everything my machine does except for Trainz. I mainly run text editors, web browsers, email, office programs, and the occasional Adobe product.

I've never been a fan boy. I just like to get the most bang for the buck. If AMD has surpassed Intel again, then I'll get AMD. And if a 6 or 8 core processor doesn't have much of a premium over a 4 core, then I'll probably get one.

I mentioned that I might be upgrading at work, where we have more than a few hardware geeks, and one pointed out the upcoming AMD Bulldozer might be the way to go...

Thanks again for pointing out good alternatives.

 

[RRSignal]

I've been looking at AMD more and more over the past year. AMD gives a lot of bang for the buck. Plus, I'm getting more and more concerned about the DRM (though they don't call it that) Intel is building into the Sandy Bridge and later chips.

 

[nfotis]

@Mospaw:
I am surprised to hear that you didn't have any luck on overclocking.
The Core 2 Duo processors are noted for their overclockability, and maybe you should read an overclocking guide for a more systematic approach?

The general feel is that AMD is focusing more on the low- and medium-budget market, with Intel being ahead in the medium- and high-end departments.

The Phenom II X4 processors are adequate (but not much better than Core 2 Quad at equivalent GHz), and the saving grace with socket AM3+ is the forward compatibility and the lower prices.
If your software uses many parallel applications/threads (that does NOT include Trainz), a 6-core Phenom is nice (but at lower GHz than the 4-core versions)

The "Sandy Bridge" unlocked Intel processors (2500K and 2600K) have very high overclocking potential, but you need a specific Intel chipset in order to unlock it.
And it's already known that the next generation processors (Ivy Bridge) will have yet another socket, so you will be forced to change motherboard if you want to upgrade.

Cheers,
N.F.

 

[Mospaw]

I figured if I couldn't get 15% over stock speeds, measuring the different wasn't going to work. Plus, it's old hardware (except for the newer video card) so I'd probably be confirming what I already suspect.

I appreciate all the feedback and advice here. I looked around at comparisons between the AMD and Intel offerings. AMD definitely offers serious bang for the buck. However, the Intel, though more money, also had higher test scores all around, so I'm gonna grab an i7.

Now to figure out which motherboard. I presume the Z68 chipset is where I need to be for an i7.

 

[Mospaw]

Got the new stuff ... good results.

I got my new CPU and motherboard put in yesterday. I booted using one of the drives from my (former) RAID1 and got things stabilized.

The jump from a Core 2 Duo E6600 (2.4ghz) to a Core i7 2600K (3.4ghz) roughly doubled my frame rates at full resolution. I haven't bumped resolution down to see what happens yet, but I suspect frame rates will jump a bit more.

My new motherboard has mSATA capabilities for Intel's SRT, but that will necessitate a fresh install to get working. I suspect things will really smoke then.

Thanks to all who helped!

 

[mrscsi]

I got my new CPU and motherboard put in yesterday. I booted using one of the drives from my (former) RAID1 and got things stabilized.

The jump from a Core 2 Duo E6600 (2.4ghz) to a Core i7 2600K (3.4ghz) roughly doubled my frame rates at full resolution. I haven't bumped resolution down to see what happens yet, but I suspect frame rates will jump a bit more.

My new motherboard has mSATA capabilities for Intel's SRT, but that will necessitate a fresh install to get working. I suspect things will really smoke then.

Thanks to all who helped!

I suspect you'll love your I7. I bought mine almost three years ago and still love it everyday:hehe:

Now of course I bought mine which was a Dell at a point in my life where I really didn't have the desire to build my own and of course the price for what I got was extremely reasonable and made up the bulk of my decision. Now over the last three years I have piece by piece discarded the Dell components that came with it and tomorrow will be putting the MSI motherboard in to complete the transformation. I actually look forward to another three years out of this machine before I have to actually look at completely rescaling.

And that will basically mean that this PC will have been the longest-running PC I've ever owned in over 30 years

 

[Mospaw]

I love it already, although I did make one mistake. I didn't realize the new mobo didn't have IDE of any kind and didn't get new SATA optical drives. That made getting drivers off the DVD difficult and painful, but using my wife's laptop and a very slow memory stick got it done. After 2 hours of sweating, swearing, and trying various things.

The new DVD burners will arrive tomorrow. Being in Las Vegas usually gets you one-day Newegg service at ground prices.

The machine it replaced was put together in October 2006, so it was due for replacement. That doesn't break my record. I had a dual Athlon system (real Athlon MPs, I might add!) that lasted me over 8 years before I retired it.

 

[mrscsi]

I love it already, although I did make one mistake. I didn't realize the new mobo didn't have IDE of any kind and didn't get new SATA optical drives. That made getting drivers off the DVD difficult and painful, but using my wife's laptop and a very slow memory stick got it done. After 2 hours of sweating, swearing, and trying various things.

The new DVD burners will arrive tomorrow. Being in Las Vegas usually gets you one-day Newegg service at ground prices.

The machine it replaced was put together in October 2006, so it was due for replacement. That doesn't break my record. I had a dual Athlon system (real Athlon MPs, I might add!) that lasted me over 8 years before I retired it.

Been there done that:hehe: albeit with a floppy.

My DVD burner is about the only thing from the original Dell that will remain. Luckily it is sata so it doesn't need to be replaced just yet.

Well I spent a good number of years living on the bleeding edge. I was replacing PCs every 6 to 8 months just to stay up on current technology because it was part of my job to do so. After I retired it was kind of nice because I bought a laptop and pretty much stuck with it for three years, then decided I wanted a little bit more power so I bought the first generation I7 and have really loved the machine ever since. When I decided I wanted more out of it I realized that the case was really designed for what was in it and no more airflow wise so I had to basically ended up rebuilding the entire thing with exception of buying processor:hehe:

So while my wife is worried that I may be going back to the dark side, I'm really looking at this rebuild as probably being one that should last me three or four more years.