Need advice: Using Trainz as a design aid for real model layout.

[Steampower4884]

Hello all,

I am a newbie just learning the ropes and finding my way around Trainz (I have The Complete Collection with TRS2004 installed).

One of the main reasons I bought Trainz is that it is a model of a model railroad and that you can create your own custom layouts in the Surveyor mode.

Well, what I would like to do is create a mock up virtual version of the REAL N-scale layout I am planning. Last night I used an existing layout and tried to do some editing via the Surveyor. One problem that I noticed right off the bat is that unlike Atlas's TRS program which uses sectional tracks, Trainz uses Bezier curves.

Is it possible to somewhat to create curves that follow a fixed guideline (i.e. standard N-scale curvatures)...then at least the track plan would be pretty accurate as to what I would like to accomplish on the real n-scale layout.

I think if I can achieve this, it would allow me to 'try out' my layout plan BEFORE actually laying down track. Also I wouldn't have to 'guess' when buying materials and it could also save me some money.

I am curious if anyone has used Trainz as a design aid in creating a model railroad.

Edit:

Well, I have found this older thread on someone that mentioned sectional track. So I guess the answer to part of my question is 'no'. But I do see scaling figures in Surveyor...so perhaps changes were made since this post was made (i.e. version of Trainz newer than mine (2004/2006)?

http://forums.auran.com/trainz/showthread.php?t=41663&highlight=sectional+track

Thanx,

Geo

 

[Tracker99]

On a few occasions I tried to duplicate my brothers 2 x 8 HO scale shelf layout in trainz. What I found is that the layout was so small that it was virtually impossible to scale correctly, ran poorly, and wasn't much fun to operate compared to what I'm use to in Trainz.

His scenery to track ratio, like most small layouts is way out of whack with the real world. Trainz allows for realistic ratios, long runs, and large industrial areas that are just impossible to create in a home model railroad. Many of the kit industries aren't much larger then a box car or two.

To get back to your original question about track radius's, start by using the N Scale for the choice of scale. You would have to know the radius in N Scale that you want to use, then use the ruler to make measurements from a point to several points to create a radius curve. Easements are just a fudge factor.

 

[wreeder]

Hi Geo,

Welcome to Trainz. While you can do what you want in Trainz with some effort it might be easier to use some software designed for what you want to do.

http://www.atlasrr.com/righttrack.htm

Once you have the layout designed then you can do a screen grab of it and use something called a Basemap to use it as a template for building your route in Trainz. Do a forum search for basemap and you should find several threads on how to use them.

William

 

[cascaderailroad]

First of all...with HO or N scale...Snap track or any other sectional track, ie: EZ Track...etc...is the noobie way to go. It results in poor electrical connections down the line, as most Model RR are built in attics, and damp basements where corrosion takes place in the rail joiners over time.

Flex track is the way to go ! Cutting flex track is a technique that requires Safety Glasses, and a thin highly breakable Dremmel Rotary Cut-Off Wheel, metal cut-off blade, or a Atlas manual Snap Saw. Filing the ends free of burrs is also a skilled technique. And Soudering all rail joints is a must. Use proper ventelation as 60/40 small diameter rosin flux core solder is noxious and toxic. Solid Pipe Soulder is useless ! NEVER, Ever use Acid Core solder.

A two, to three second, rule in soldering is the max time, if it takes any longer, it aint soldering !

A souldering GUN (Weller) is a tool to be mastered. Soldering iron tips must be cleaned with a damp sponge, and retinned frequently. And souldering tips continually loosen from the heat of the iron, and also need to be re-tightened every couple times per souldering session. As is replacing melted plastic ties after the soldering process. Do not soulder turnouts, as they will melt easly !!!! A heat sink of alligator clips reduces the melting somewhat, but some ties will allways melt. A brass brissle brush will pollish the rails and joiners before souldering. Dirty connections will not soulder !!! A #11 X-Acto blade knife is the tool that you will be using (to cut yourself with) and it can be resharpened unlimited times, on a hand stone.

Making curves in N Scale are easily drawn out using a nail as a pivot, a string, attached by winding it around a pencil, for drawing N scale 12" - 18" radius curves. HO is 18" - 36" the norm. Tighter curves will result in poor running of loomotives...don't buy cheap junk chinese locos, as they allways will perform poorly !

You get what you pay for...you pay for what you get !

PM me...I will design a Model RR layout using MS Paint, and return the finished track plan to you via E Mail.

Sectional Model RR layouts, like: "N Trak" are my expertise !

A 4'x8' 1/4" lauaun plywood is the standard size, but a 5'x10' layout is better. Hollow core bedroom doors are an excellent layout surface, as is Pink 4'x8' Foam Board. Bracing the outside of a layout, and every 18" on center, with 2'x4' is reccommended, but using a miter saw making lap joints can manage 1"x4" pine strips equally as strong. Firring Strips are not OK, as they are warped, and are cheap firewood. Don't by cheap wood !

Many shelf type switching Model RR have been built on skinny layouts 6" wide and 2' long.

 

[Steampower4884]

To get back to your original question about track radius's, start by using the N Scale for the choice of scale. You would have to know the radius in N Scale that you want to use, then use the ruler to make measurements from a point to several points to create a radius curve. Easements are just a fudge factor.

Ok, I will try and give it a shot.

Hi Geo,

Welcome to Trainz. While you can do what you want in Trainz with some effort it might be easier to use some software designed for what you want to do.

http://www.atlasrr.com/righttrack.htm

I already have that program and that is fine for creating the layout...but you can't 'test' the layout, that is where I was hoping that Trainz would come in, considering you can carry out full operations in Trainz.

Once you have the layout designed then you can do a screen grab of it and use something called a Basemap to use it as a template for building your route in Trainz. Do a forum search for basemap and you should find several threads on how to use them.

William

Really? That is interesting, definitely will look into that one...thanx!

First of all...with HO or N scale...Snap track or any other sectional track, ie: EZ Track...etc...is the noobie way to go. It results in poor electrical connections down the line, as most Model RR are built in attics, and damp basements where corrosion takes place in the rail joiners over time.

I already made the commitment to purchase standard Atlas track to 'do it right'

Flex track is the way to go ! Cutting flex track is a technique that requires Safety Glasses,

My prescription glasses are near bullet proof...that is how thick they are.

I skipped the section on soldering because you are talking to someone that is an audio technician for 25 years. I repair amplifiers for a living.

Making curves in N Scale are easily drawn out using a nail as a pivot, a string, attached by winding it around a pencil, for drawing N scale 12" - 18" radius curves. HO is 18" - 36" the norm. Tighter curves will result in poor running of loomotives...don't buy cheap junk chinese locos, as they allways will perform poorly !

You get what you pay for...you pay for what you get !

I have a mix of both cheap and good stuff already. Mostly Bachmann, Minitrix and Atlas.

PM me...I will design a Model RR layout using MS Paint, and return the finished track plan to you via E Mail.

I already have RTS from Atlas. There are two basic layout designs I have in the works...one is a 2' by 4' coffee table type layout in which the trains will mostly continuously run, but there will be a couple spurs to switch (if I wanted to). The other plan is for a 15" (yes, INCH) by 10foot shelf plan. I have explored options for continuous running in a layout like this via a computer automated switchback system since this is under the smallest standard curve. However, I have also thought of going traction with a layout like this. A traction based layout usually can have radii in the 4.75" realm. That would fit in my 15" depth.

Sectional Model RR layouts, like: "N Trak" are my expertise !

I looked into this, but the thing is that you need some kind of layout to start with. Building a small module as a first shot out...well there isn't much you can do with it once it is built. However, going with a standard shelf or table top layout, then a module becomes feasible because you can add it to the main layout.

A 4'x8' 1/4" lauaun plywood is the standard size, but a 5'x10' layout is better.

I am talking about n-scale, not HO. Those large sizes wouldn't fit in my space anyway. I am VERY tight on space.

Hollow core bedroom doors are an excellent layout surface, as is Pink 4'x8' Foam Board. Bracing the outside of a layout, and every 18" on center, with 2'x4' is reccommended, but using a miter saw making lap joints can manage 1"x4" pine strips equally as strong. Firring Strips are not OK, as they are warped, and are cheap firewood. Don't by cheap wood !

Many shelf type switching Model RR have been built on skinny layouts 6" wide and 2' long.

Well, I certainly can go larger than 6" by 2'. I did think about making two 15" by 5 foot modules and then butt them together for the shelf layout space. That space actually bridges across a very large doorway (46" wide) from one side of the room to the other. So one scene could be in one room and another in the other. Then trains could go from one scene to the next. The good thing about this idea is that with two 5' by 15" modules, they could easily be added to a corner layout latter on. Then I would have the main layout with 'wings'.

But right now, my goal is to see what works well together and what is fun to run. Thus I was hoping that Trainz could help me out in creating a mock layout first. Thereby avoiding costly mistakes in the 'real' model railroad world.

Thanx,

Geo

 

[SuperFudd]

If you think rosin flux core solder is noxious and toxic, you don't even want to think of using the new fangeled environmentally "safe" stuff. Besides, they don't work as well as good old rosin core solder.

 

[Steampower4884]

If you think rosin flux core solder is noxious and toxic, you don't even want to think of using the new fangeled environmentally "safe" stuff. Besides, they don't work as well as good old rosin core solder.

I have been breathing in solder/flux fumes since I was 9 years old, now it is over 30 years later and I am still here.

I don't come from the school or camp that follows every trend as to what is good (or safe) for you and what isn't. If I lived like that then I would be living in fear of getting cancer for flushing while still sitting on the bowl on Tuesday when my excrement came out sideways and floated the day before. (Granted that is a little too much info, but I never said I was subtle).

 

[johnwhelan]

I have been breathing in solder/flux fumes since I was 9 years old, now it is over 30 years later and I am still here.

I don't come from the school or camp that follows every trend as to what is good (or safe) for you and what isn't. If I lived like that then I would be living in fear of getting cancer for flushing while still sitting on the bowl on Tuesday when my excrement came out sideways and floated the day before. (Granted that is a little too much info, but I never said I was subtle).

Forty / fifty is just about when it starts to hit you. Don't underestimate this stuff over the longer term. The reason chemists had a life expectancy of fifty five when I graduated was they work with nasty stuff all day. The warnings come from the number of chemists who died whilst working with nasty stuff, that's how we know which nasty stuff is worse than others.

Cheerio John

 

[sparky15]

24 years as an aircraft mechanic in the Air Force I can attest to that. We used to take baths in stuff the EPA long since banned or are just starting to issue warnings about. Not to mention who knows what was in all those "vaccines" they pumped us full of. Now I'm retired and in my forties I'm starting to feel a little hitch in my come along already.

Trust me protect yourself now. What can it hurt.

Dave....

 

[backyard]

Can't afford it...

I have been collecting, kit-bashing, styling locomotives in HO scale for years & years.

I have several boxes of Life-Like, Walthers, Athearn, etc, locomotives, cars, cabooses, for several railroads & may add to that from time to time...

But I guarantee you I'll not even consider a model railroad of any size, now that I have Auran Trainz.

It's all in the mind, whether your in a railroad museum on a restored locomotive, model railroading in any scale, or virtual railroading.

The simple human desire to have "more," makes the cost of MR impractical...

I can model 135miles of Norfolk Southern in North Georgia with all the newest train equipment, signaling, enginesounds, enginespecs, custom cabs, prototypical physics, operations, etc, and never run out of new & fun things to do.

Take my advice, forget the toys...invest in a good computer!

 

[johnwhelan]

I also have some model railway items but these days they live in the cupboard.

Have a look at TS2010 and some of the high end locos and rolling stock around. You just can't even begin to model some of the layouts we have and for narrow and broad gauge Trainz can't really be touched.

Cheerio John

 

[Steampower4884]

Forty / fifty is just about when it starts to hit you. Don't underestimate this stuff over the longer term. The reason chemists had a life expectancy of fifty five when I graduated was they work with nasty stuff all day. The warnings come from the number of chemists who died whilst working with nasty stuff, that's how we know which nasty stuff is worse than others.

Cheerio John

24 years as an aircraft mechanic in the Air Force I can attest to that. We used to take baths in stuff the EPA long since banned or are just starting to issue warnings about. Not to mention who knows what was in all those "vaccines" they pumped us full of. Now I'm retired and in my forties I'm starting to feel a little hitch in my come along already.

Trust me protect yourself now. What can it hurt.

Dave....

Dave & John, I am self admitted I am as far from a health nut as you can get. I would rather eat the egg sandwich with cheese ham and bacon on it and live to 55 rather than have salads pushed in my face if someone says I will live to 70. So I choose the shorter live, but enjoy it. Now if that scares you...you should have seen all the chemicals I used to use when I restored jukeboxes . Would I let anyone tell me not to use them because they were hazardous? Absolutely not. Like I said I am not going to throw my hands up in the air in a tizzy if someone tells me that I can't flush the bowl while sitting on it on Tuesday if I took a dump sideways on Monday. If you spend all your life doing that, then there isn't any point in living in the first place. You are going to die no matter what, that is a fact. Life IS a risk in general.

At any rate...we are getting off topic.

I have been collecting, kit-bashing, styling locomotives in HO scale for years & years.

I have several boxes of Life-Like, Walthers, Athearn, etc, locomotives, cars, cabooses, for several railroads & may add to that from time to time...

But I guarantee you I'll not even consider a model railroad of any size, now that I have Auran Trainz.

The funny thing is that I had thoughts of that too. A program like Trainz could certainly convert would be and veteran hobbyists alike. The cost of doing something on the scale of Trains would be astronomical...just to have your model in "3D". Even then you can't ride in the cab.

I could very well see expanding this concept to have an actual train cab and the windows are LCD monitors all of which tie into a multi-screen version of Trainz.

It's all in the mind, whether your in a railroad museum on a restored locomotive, model railroading in any scale, or virtual railroading.

The simple human desire to have "more," makes the cost of MR impractical...

Well said. BUT I agree and disagree at the same time. I disagree that when it comes to riding in a real train, as no degree of modeling will replace actually being there, seeing, hearing touching, and smelling the train...taking a ride on the train and feeling how it runs. But I do agree that even with a museum railway while you ARE actually there, the fact does remain that most museum railways interact very little with the world around them and they just go from one stop to another and then return back. So unless you are one of the select few that actually works for the railroad and switching is an every day task, this is something the average hobbyist will never experience.

What I did come to realize is that with Trainz I don't need to go full out with the BIG DREAM model railroad layout. I realized that I don't have to go all out with the Big Dream as that could be realized very easily in Trainz. While I still want a model railway, I will be very content something small.

(I have twin 3 year old boys and not only am I planning the layout for me, but also for them. So I DO still want a layout. And, no the boys will not be touching the layout, but they will be able to watch it).

Keeping actual model railroads small will save money and space as it doesn't matter how big of a layout you make in Trainz, the computer will still take up the same space. Well...that is unless you do what I mentioned above with the cab, controls, and multiple monitors.

I can model 135miles of Norfolk Southern in North Georgia with all the newest train equipment, signaling, enginesounds, enginespecs, custom cabs, prototypical physics, operations, etc, and never run out of new & fun things to do.

Take my advice, forget the toys...invest in a good computer!

I will meet you halfway on that. Since playing around with Trainz, I no longer desire a "Big Dream" layout and I would be content with something much smaller...and yeah I would like to take Trainz further (i.e. with the set up I mentioned above).

Last night I was amazed at how much time I killed on a small Trainz layout..I was up past 3:00am! And I know I only scratched the surface.

I picked up some new techniques for working in Surveyor mode, so I am off to have a go with another session with Trainz tonight. Luckily I don't work on Fridays, so I might pull another 3:00AMer.

G.nite All!

Geo

 

[pommie]

Who says you cannot design small layouts in trainz, there is at least one 8'x4' on the dls, then there is this one I designed for myself in 'On30' at only 8'x2',

Overhead view

some random shots,

Trainz started out as a "Model Train Simulator", why else would they provide the scale ruler

Cheers David

 

[Steampower4884]

Who says you cannot design small layouts in trainz, there is at least one 8'x4' on the dls, then there is this one I designed for myself in 'On30' at only 8'x2',

Trainz started out as a "Model Train Simulator", why else would they provide the scale ruler

Cheers David

That's a pretty impressive little shelf layout. But I will say that I would be looking for something a wee bit larger than that (for the real model railroad).

I haven't looked at 4'x8' because normally this is a standard oval size for HO gauge. I did try to look for 2x4 layouts, but not too much came up.

Thanx,

Geo

 

[pommie]

For small layouts try this site http://www.carendt.com/index.html

Cheers David

 

[Dap]

Steampower,

Not sure what type of operations you are interested in but here is a one board layout with built-in automated car card system. It has 10 industries and interchanges with two railroads.

It could easily be adapted to an N guage layout with staging tracks in place of the portals.

Hither & Yon Railroad

 

[Jananton]

For small layouts try this site http://www.carendt.com/index.html

Cheers David

A very nice small layout you've made there David. I presume it's based on the timesaver switching puzzle layout like the ones found here.

As with many who replied here me too used to have a real HO model railway years ago, but because of the lack of room it got shelved some 20 years ago.:hehe:
From time to time I get the urge still to do something with it again, but reallly, since I discovered trainz and its possebilities to create 'real' curves, slopes and stations the whole idea to be restricted to a baseboard of one by two meters or even a room of three by four, seems quite limited. If there's anything that trainz doesn't cater for, it would be the joy of creating nice pieces of special scenery by hand. Of course, in a way you can do that with trainz as well by using a 3D creation program, but that just isn't the same as forming little pieces of wood, plastic, metal or whatever you can think of into that little masterpiece you can see on your railway someday.

Oh well, just my two cents I suppose.

Greetings from rainy Amsterdam,

Jan

 

[Dap]

I also gave up my HO stuff. My current "layout" is actually a full scale 103 mile mainline track railroad of 100 yrs ago. Something I could never do in HO or even N. I decided to make this my modeling medium and got myself a high end computer for the price of a new brass locomotive. And, freed up lots of space.

 

[backyard]

We do that of a sorts...with waybills...

We have interactive industries(PROTOLARS) that unload any commodity & reload or load any commodity.

I was putting together one model railroad I found back in 1970 in Railroad Model Craftsman. I built it in HO in Florida.

I find in Trainz, there exists a unique problem I had not found until I tried it, but if you have a 5'x8' layout, what do you do between the edge of the layout and infinity?

A Scenic backdrop?

Where do the tracks stop vs the edge? Why?

My reasoning had to do with the cleaver way that the RMC "Layout Doctor(Bill Shoppe)" designed a two-level inside-out figure-eight with a yard & three industries with endless possibilities...in fact I think it's the all time best magazine model railroad ever.

But all I could think of was adding baseboards and buffering the scenery down to the layout. Then I thought of adding portals. But why should I allow a cyber-operation to have all the fun, leaving me on a virtual "Island of Sodor?"

After you so master your route & switching job, you will wish for something else to do...perhaps an opposing movement...then what will you do about the limited number of industries you have placed?

Even our newbie jr. route builders can keep someone busy with limited experience, with everyone learning together at their respected interests whilst enjoying each others accomplishments!

Therefore I decided that even the re-creation of my former fabulous pike is a virtual waste of time so to speak.

Don't waste time and fortune limiting yourself and your abilities, in the limited time, space and resources that you have!

I model real railroads using Digital Elevation Modeling including Topo mapping, track charts, Goolgle Earth, NASA World Wind, Microsoft Bing, videos & pictures to recreate a real railroad.

For 3-year olds that wish to touch, feel, eat, Thomas does nicely, complete with a TV show, videos & a bit of teaching about virtues. You'll get plenty of time to teach "looking with the eyes instead of the fingers," when you take them shopping.

 

[StorkNest]

Steampower4884,

There was a model Railroader with an article of someone using Trainz to plan his model Ashtabula RR before building, Model Railroad Planning 2007. That article would show some advantages you are looking for.
a 4x8 HO is a 2x4 N roughly. Some model layouts are scaled up in Trainz for reasons.
I have thought about either doing a curve tool or sectional track in popular sizes such as HO 18", 24" and 36".