Navigate to a siding without placing 2 Trackmarks for each siding

[Jerome555]

Dear Trainz Community.

To give you an idea of what i am talking about, please have a look at the following screenshot:

As you can see in this example there are two Sidings (Track 1 and Track 2). Also there are two Trackmarks, one at the east end and one at the west end of each siding. With "Navigate to Trackmark / TRACK 1 EAST" you can send a Train to this Position.

So far so good.

That is usefull if you build a small yard with just a few sidings or if you plan to build a automated Route or a route which should be driven at the drivers view. But if your yards got more complex and you plan to keep control of many Drivers (sending them via commands) this will cause problems.

Have a look at the second Train wich should approach TRACK 2. As you can see it stops at "TRACK 2 WEST". Why? Because I hit the wrong Trackmark Entry when I give my command to the driver.

Sure - this sounds funny regarding to this simple example with only 4 Trackmarks, but usualy my routes got many trackmarks because of this need to place at least two Trackmarks for each siding.

Now I am searching and testing different solutions to solve this problem for many hours in the last week and I can not find a good solution. It is time to ask professionals - it is time to ask you!

What I am looking for?

I would like to send my trains to a siding by using the "Navigate to" Option likewise the industry. Then there is just one Entry for each siding.

That is already nearly possible for passenger trains by using a little trick:

Placing an AJS Invisible Station, set the amount of passengers to the lowest amount and set the platform length to your sidings amount.

Then you got two options: "Trough" & "Terminal" By using Trough the train will stop at the end of the (invisible) Platform, by using Terminal the Train stops at the middle.

But: This is not comfortable because you have to add the command "load" every time you send a train to such a siding and if you are not sending trains to such a siding for some time there will grow passengers anyway because the minimum amount is "1 per hour".

And: it is not working with freight trains.

And additional to this: it is also impossible to use multiple industry tracks, because the train will completely passing trough until the last wagon is filled. As well if you haven't configurated any Goods at all.

Is there a solution out there I did not found yet?

Does anybody except this matter having at least 2 Trackmarks for each siding?

I am looking forward to your response,

cheers Jerome

 

[martinvk]

Not sure why you don't want two trackmarks, one for each end. It would give you the option of entering from either end and besides, I don't think there is a cost in using extra trackmarks. Sure, you have to be careful to give the correct commands but that has always been the case.

 

[colourlight]

I can't see anything wrong with your track markers. Thats more or less how I do it. Rarely I may give a driver the wrong command but it,s not an issue for me. Yiu have a track marker at each end of your siding. I assume you want trains to stop at both ends? Thats fine. I use "drive" rather than "navigate" It helps to stop the AI going silly sometimes. With drive the AI sits at a red signal. With navigate the AI tries to find a way round it which is not always a good thing. Why do you use a"load" command if you simply want a train to go there and not load/unload. No point. Not sure why you are using an invis station in a siding unless there really is a station in the siding. Again no need to load or unload if you just want the train to go there. Track markers are all you need as long as you have a naming system so you know where they are and makes them easy to find in a long list. I call mine "location/line/direction of travel"and identification number (if more than 1). I have one called "Oakwood GL North 2" meaning it is the 2nd trackmark on the Goods Line at Oakwood travelling north. I use trackmarks for insructing the driver where he should stop and which lines to travel over to get there.

 

[stagecoach]

What I always do is give different areas a name like East yard and use that as the entry in the TM followed by 1 for the track and E for which end. You then get East Yard 1 E, East Yard 2 E etc. You could also group the TM's like this East Yard E (1), East Yard E (2) etc. This will show up as normal TM's or if you use the navigate to TM list command, you get only the groups to select from. You can do random selection from the list or select the one you want.

 

[Jerome555]

What is my idea?

Thank you for your respond.

A good hint with the driver command "drive to" instead of "navigate to", i will check the AI behavior with this command.

And yes - as I mentioned before - the system with 2 Trackmarks for each Siding works well on small yards or small routes and I got a meaningfull (short) naming for these Trackmarks. (i.e. C 250m G3w = Container Yard / Range of Siding / Sidingnumber / Destination East or West) But I want to reduce the amount of my target entries. I got a confusing list with more than 100 entries and if I could reduce them to 50 entries this will make it a little bit more comfortable to use them during I am commanding 5 to 10 Trains manualy.
____________

In my scenario I do not preconfigurate all trains to drive. The players objective is to manage the traffic at the yard, keep the industry running and putting togehter specific consists to earn Score. The Player gets trains from a portal, sending them to the yard. Split them. Sort and drove the wagons with one of his 5 shunting engines to one industry, load them and put them back together into consist like he was advised to, before he couple another loco and send them away through a portal. Everything by manualy commanding his drivers just in time.
____________

But: Lets go a bit further with this destination thing...

At the beginning of my search i found the "FT straight 250m, 500m ,..." (i.e. kuid:58377:60040) in the objects category. I thought this is my solution, but there is no skripting at all and I am realy asking myself why they have red arrows?!?

Anyway, my idea is an object likewise this FT Object-Tracks or a station but without a platform. Just a track with different length. Lets call it "parking sinding" for now. This parking siding got a range (i.e. 250m, 500m, 1000m ...) and was listed as destination at the command-menu "Navigate to" togehter with the industry- and stationdestinations.

When a driver get the command "Navigate to" > "Parking Siding A 250m" the AI first check wether the actual consist length fits into a track range of 250m and then find a way to the destination. When the AI arrive at the Parking Siding and the entrance signal shows free, the AI drove through it unless to the opposide end of the parking siding and stop there. (i.e. the train comes from the east, then it goes to the signal or stoppoint on the west side of the parking siding)

This would be perfect...

and this is already almost there! (only the comparison of consist length and track range is not done yet) It is there but just by making a detour with a AJS invisible station and only for passenger trains.

That is why I am asking. I thought anybody already scripted such an object because it is possible. But I did not found on DLS or at any forum.

@ colourlight: If I do not use "load" after I send a driver to a Station, equal which station, the train stops at the beginning of the platform. Only if I add "load" he drove to the platform end or middle (as configurated with "trough" or "terminal").

 

[colourlight]

I have a better idea of what you are trying to achieve in your scenario. If I was creating your scenario I could cut down the number of trackmarks to one or two. How about sitting up your yard into 1 or 2 sidings with trackmarkers whhich you could call your arrival or reception siding, 1 or 2 departure sidings where you could place trains that are made up and waiting for a loco to take them back to the portal and the rest of your sidings would be for sorting incoming wagons into their final destination. You would only need 2 track markers or even just one for arrivals And if you use your invis station you could eliminate the need for track markers altogether although I think track markers are much simpler to use.

 

[Dermmy]

I really can't see the problem with the situation in the OP. The only problem is operator error, eaily fixed after the first test.

You complain about 100 TMs, but Surveyor breaks them up into manageable chunks in the Drive to and/or Navigate to menus. So long as you use a logical naming sequence - as suggested by Stagecoach - the system you are using is already the best most flexible technique available...

Andy

 

[Pendolino]

You can group the trackmarks by using the "tilde" (~) in their name.

Suppose you have two small, 2-track yards, East Yard and West Yard, with 2 trackmarks on each track.

Name them as follows: "East Yard~Siding 1 E", "East Yard~Siding 1 W", "East Yard~Siding 2 E", "East Yard~Siding 2 W", "West Yard~Siding 1 E", "West Yard~Siding 1 W", "West Yard~Siding 2 E", "West Yard~Siding 2 W".

(the "~" can be obtatined by pressing ALT+126).

If you add a "Navigate to trackmark" order, the list of possible destinations will be:
"East Yard >"
"West Yard >"

Clicking on one of the destination, a new list will display all the trackmarks belonging to that group, i.e. if you click on "West Yard", the list will read:
"Siding 1 E"
"Siding 1 W"
"Siding 2 E"
"Siding 2 W"

I usually use this technique for my routes, with the format "StationName~TMName". I hope it can be of help to solve your problem.

 

[Jerome555]

Ok ok. more details...

Thank you for your response.

Maybe my first screenshot at this thread was a little bit confusing. That is not my route it was just a simple illustration of the basic issue.

I did some Routebuilding with a friend at his windows computer and now Trainz Mac is finaly released I could play on my Mac.

So the following was my first route on my mac. I did not spend much time in modeling the scenery because I focused on the funktionality and AI behavior first.

This is a single player route which objectives I already mentioned before.


Picture 1:

Picture 2:

Mapview:

Here is an example for how just a part of the "NAV2TM"-List looks like:

As I said before - this works but it comes to its end of comfortable use if the routes scale will rise.

I am planing to start building a multiplayer route with at least 2 of this sized yards. Then this will get really confusing.

That is why i am asking for annother solution.

Here is the configuration panel of AJS Invisible Station:

I am looking for something like that, but without a platform and also usable for freight trains.

And to make it perfect it would be great if the AI compares the length of the driven consist with the range (space, lenght) of the siding which it was sent to.

Does anybody know wether there is an object like this?

or...

Does anybody want to script an object like this?

(if I would understand scripting I would do this)

 

[Red_Rattler]

Haven't got time to read the "essays" in the posts in this thread, but if I understand, why not just place one trackmark/trigger in the approximate middle and increase or decrease the radius of said trackmarks/triggers when you make the sessions?

Edit: Not sure that would work.

 

[trev999]

@ Pendolino - What a clever idea. I am sure that will help Jerome with his problem.

@ Jerome555 - This suggestion that you have put forward may be possible to solve but will need some work on special commands to accomplish.

Firstly lets work on the idea of placing a single mark at the centre of the target track.

A command is needed that will:

a. Measure the length of the train and store the result in a variable.
b. Interrogate the target trackmark and establish the length of available track.
c. Decide whether the train will fit the track.
d. If answer to c is 'yes' drive to the trackmark and then further for half the train length.
Or drive to the first junction and stop.

What should happen if the train will not fit into the track? Must the train wait for a new instruction?

Atilabarut made a driver command 'APDrivePastJunction' which I modified to have options for stopping before reaching the junction. Due to trains having different braking distances and carrying various loads the stopping point is not easy to predict, but it does work better if the radius of the junction is increased to 50 metres or so.

Using this command there still needs to be a 'drive via trackmark' to enable the train to reach the required destination.

Controlling several trains manually is a difficult task and I would use the schedule library to construct sequences of commands and copy the appropriate ones into the driver schedule. If you name the entries carefully it is easier to pick out the correct one.

If you are interested in the 'Drive To Junction' command, send me your e-mail address in a PM and I will send it to you.

Trevor

 

[stagecoach]

From your TM's I would be inclined to group them using thes names exactly as shown:-
R 100m G o (10)
R 100m G o (11)
R 100m G o (12)
These will then all appear as one group
R 100m G w (10)
R 100m G w (11)
R 100m G w (12)
These will show as a different group
Use the "navigate to trackmark list" command and you can select the group then the TM you want
S 200m G o (1)
S 200m G o (2) etc etc This will shorten long lists of single TM's.

 

[Jerome555]

@ Stagecoach & Pendolino: thank you very much for your hints in naming my trackmarks. I think a combination of both will help to make it easier.

The "tilde" ~ on a MAC is ALT + n

But if there is a chance to reduce the amount of entries about 50% this will be the best way to act quick with your driver commands.

@ Red-Ratter: If I understand your intention correct, the train which drives from east to west stops - let say - 350m east from the middle point of a 700m siding. Then I think the train does not completely stay at the siding.

@ Trev999: If I sound out right, you got some experiences with scripting in Trainz. And I would be glad if you're intrested in discovering a solution.


Some Questions:


q1) Is it possible to create own trackmarks?

Because to interrogate the target trackmark we have to store the variable "siding lenght" in this lets call it "center trackmark".

So if you place it, you're not only asked for a name of this trackmark, you're also asked about the lenght.

Then there could be two or maybe three options:

At Arrival on center trackmark...
1) drive further for half the train length
2) stop at next signal
3) stop at next junction

If it will be to extensive to implement different options I think to "stop at next signal" on the track-spline in driving direction would be the best way.


q2) Which are the pros of going to the next junction instead of a signal?


q3) Might it be possible to get an own command category?

I mean beside "Navigate to", "Navigate to TM", "Navigate via TM" etc.

Then we could think about naming it "parking at" or something like this. And at the next lower level there are the "center trackmarks" names.


To Answer your Question: "What should happen if the train will not fit into the track?"


The Driver refuse (delete) the command and drop a message like

"Are you craizy? My Train does never fit into this siding!"

or

"You should get another job! This siding is to small!"

or

"Whould you cause big trubble? There is not enough space for me!"
(If you can embed a audio i will record the slogans for you.)



What's next?

I am looking forward to your answers and if you're able to script new trainz items and would be interested to work with me on this objective, then you should open a new thread at the "script category" of this forum to keep this topic/thread clean. In that case, please embed the link to your next post.

cheers Jerome

 

[trev999]

Hi Jerome

a1) It is not necessary to create specialised trackmarks. The work would be done by a driver command instead. If there is a trackmark on the siding then the driver command would perform a track search forward and backward, looking for junctions. The distances to the first junction found in either direction would be added together and a safety margin subtracted to allow room for the train to fit.

If signals are used instead of junctions then the command could search ahead for a signal and behind for a junction. The driver command could provide options for both possibilities in case there is no signal. Driving half the train length is less precise as the loco braking and loading will have an unpredictable effect on the stopping position.

a2) Using signals is a good option but it may not be desirable to have signals at every siding. If the signal is green then the train would not stop unless the command also sets the signal to red. (It is possible to stop the train at a signal regardless of its status).

If the junction is not set to allow the train to pass then the signal would be red and might prevent the train from completing the command if the junction is too far away. This is actually not a bad thing.
A red or yellow signal would slow the train down. This is probably also a good feature.

a3) Yes it is possible to create a new command which can display only certain trackmarks. Each special trackmark would have a special character such as # or ~ as the first character.

Making a new command takes time and getting the last few details to work properly often takes much longer than expected. I am currently trying to finish another command, so it could be a while before anything happens.

Instead of opening a new thread I will send you a e-mail so we can correspond directly.

Cheers - Trevor

 

[AussiePaul]

It's a pity that this forum does not have a "saved hints" section

I have been reading this thread, not because I have this problem, but because I like to see how those more experienced than I solve the various problems that arise.
I believe Pendolinos suggestion is a valuable asset to have knowledge of. I'm just not sure where I will keep it so that when I do want to use it, I will have it.
Perhaps it needs to be entered in to the 2012 wiki? I don't know if there is a section for that but hopefully there is.
Keep sharing the information fellas.
Paul.

 

[Jerome555]

Yes

We will keep you informed.

cheers Jerome