I watched a news item on Amtrak the other night about security. It said that Amtrak the US passnger carrier was advising passengers to watch for people who were quiet taking no notice of much or not distracted iu =n any way. Likewise anyone looking nervous bit excited, etc. Kind of a wide basis for everyone one would have thought as well as going to two extrems leaving no-one in the middle so to speak. . Then it showed folk queuing up at the barrier to a train platform having to take off their shoes like at airports? If they did that in my part of the world trains wouldn't be moving at all. Isn't that just a little bit over the top with such illogical advice? When the word 'security' comes up from governments or the media a sense of paranoia sneaks in.
Maybe a wee bit paranoid on US rail?
- Thread starter rjhowie
- Start date
cascaderailroad
New member
Have you forgotten 911, and the various attacks in Europe ... Word is ... There has been increased chatter going on for ten years now.
I suggest this thread be taken down, immediately due to international security issues !
I suggest this thread be taken down, immediately due to international security issues !
Last edited:
norfolksouthern37
what's a normal map?
that's news to me. I have seen the police and their dogs around checking things but never a queue for removing shoes and or getting searched like you have to do to fly.
Hi everybody.
British security has in the past three years identified two areas where they feel there is a higher risk of future terrorist attack being that airports and aircraft are now very difficult to penetrate in that context .
The first target that has been brought forward for increased security are Premier league football stadiums which with their regular attendances of 50,000 to 70,000 on match days could well it is felt be targeted. Supporters attending these matches are only too well aware of the increased surveillance and security measures that have been implemented in recent years. That however need not be discussed on this forum.
However, anyone who travels regularly on the British rail network cannot have failed to notice the increased security in recent months. Heavily armed police are always to be seen in and around the major terminus and junction stations and any luggage left unattended within those stations receives quick attention from station security staff and is usually removed immediately from the platform or concourse areas.
That stated, from what I have observed the emphasis for security is not so much on a possible attack on any one coach of a train but rather an attack on the whole train while it is travelling. Network rail and British security thinking seems to be that an incident could possibly comprise of damaging a power car or first coach of a train passing through the outskirts of the city at high speed. Obviously if sufficient damage could be wrought so as to derail it, this could bring about the enormous casualties not only to the passengers on the train but also in the area surrounding the derailment.
Evidence for the above security belief can be seen in the way that the British Transport Police react when any non-authorised individual attempts to approach a consist anywhere within the network. Paddington station in London was evacuated two weeks ago when two stupid train spotters jumped down from the platform in front of the lead power car in an attempt to get some photos. The great Western main line was brought to a halt for 45 minutes and Plymouth station put into lockdown last week when two so-called rail fans illegally accessed the main HST maintenance facility in an attempt to take photos. Doubtless there have been many others such incidents but the press tend not to report them probably so as not to encourage others who may be bent on just disruption and nothing else.
With security problems growing throughout the world I believe that the “expectation” of the vast majority of rail commuters in the United Kingdom is not one of if an attack is going to happen, but one of when is an attack going to happen.
Bill
British security has in the past three years identified two areas where they feel there is a higher risk of future terrorist attack being that airports and aircraft are now very difficult to penetrate in that context .
The first target that has been brought forward for increased security are Premier league football stadiums which with their regular attendances of 50,000 to 70,000 on match days could well it is felt be targeted. Supporters attending these matches are only too well aware of the increased surveillance and security measures that have been implemented in recent years. That however need not be discussed on this forum.
However, anyone who travels regularly on the British rail network cannot have failed to notice the increased security in recent months. Heavily armed police are always to be seen in and around the major terminus and junction stations and any luggage left unattended within those stations receives quick attention from station security staff and is usually removed immediately from the platform or concourse areas.
That stated, from what I have observed the emphasis for security is not so much on a possible attack on any one coach of a train but rather an attack on the whole train while it is travelling. Network rail and British security thinking seems to be that an incident could possibly comprise of damaging a power car or first coach of a train passing through the outskirts of the city at high speed. Obviously if sufficient damage could be wrought so as to derail it, this could bring about the enormous casualties not only to the passengers on the train but also in the area surrounding the derailment.
Evidence for the above security belief can be seen in the way that the British Transport Police react when any non-authorised individual attempts to approach a consist anywhere within the network. Paddington station in London was evacuated two weeks ago when two stupid train spotters jumped down from the platform in front of the lead power car in an attempt to get some photos. The great Western main line was brought to a halt for 45 minutes and Plymouth station put into lockdown last week when two so-called rail fans illegally accessed the main HST maintenance facility in an attempt to take photos. Doubtless there have been many others such incidents but the press tend not to report them probably so as not to encourage others who may be bent on just disruption and nothing else.
With security problems growing throughout the world I believe that the “expectation” of the vast majority of rail commuters in the United Kingdom is not one of if an attack is going to happen, but one of when is an attack going to happen.
Bill
Last edited:
Look if we tried doing what is being done over the pond the railways would seize up. I tend to think that government figures and media tend to go over the top in the US and use 'security' continually to the point of exasperation.' We know that there are terrorists across the world but I do with respect feel that maybe folk get more excited in some places more than others. The type of descriptions Amtrak were giving were to be honest a bit ridiculous going from one description to another which in practice would describe every passenger. All that does is create more nerve ends. As for dropping this thread for world security I do trust that was meant to be satirical because the alternative falls into paranoia and some countries can get more hypo than others. When I told a friend over in the States about this thing he thought it was a bit too much and security is jumping about like Mexcian jumping beans and getting people nervous is becoming stretched.
Hi rjHhowie and everybody.
rjHhowie although it may look as though the railway companies are becoming somewhat “paranoid” with regard to attack security, it is down to the fact that they have to comply with current safety legislation or face severe financial penalties for failure to do so.
British industrial safety legislation (and I believe the United States legislation is very similar) states that all employers have a “duty of care” towards their employees and any other person who may be affected or come into contact with a company’s operations. Further wording under the duty of care legislation advises that companies must take all measures reasonably practical to ensure the health and safety of the above groups of persons. Exactly what constitutes “reasonable measures” has been the subject of countless civil and industrial court hearings since 1974 when the above legislation was introduced in the United Kingdom.
To bring the foregoing into the context of a railway reacting to possible terrorist attack, that would depend on a risk assessment being carried out with regard to how likely it was that such a threat would be targeted against the company operations. In the case of a numeric risk assessment a score of less than 10 has to be found against a maximum score of 36. If the initial risk assessment brings forward a score of 10 or more then measures have to be introduced to reduce the score and therefore the risk to both passengers and employees to within that limit.
To put the above into a possible attack scenario, anyone injured in such an attack or the dependants of persons killed would naturally in today’s world wish to claim compensation for those injuries or deaths suffered. If it was then found that the railroad company had taken no preventative action against a possible perceived attack, then the railway company would carry full liability for all legal actions placed against them.
Rj rightly or wrongly the above is today’s world. However, I am glad to state that it has kept me in employment and business by way of assisting and advising employers with safety problems for the last 25 years.
Bill.
rjHhowie although it may look as though the railway companies are becoming somewhat “paranoid” with regard to attack security, it is down to the fact that they have to comply with current safety legislation or face severe financial penalties for failure to do so.
British industrial safety legislation (and I believe the United States legislation is very similar) states that all employers have a “duty of care” towards their employees and any other person who may be affected or come into contact with a company’s operations. Further wording under the duty of care legislation advises that companies must take all measures reasonably practical to ensure the health and safety of the above groups of persons. Exactly what constitutes “reasonable measures” has been the subject of countless civil and industrial court hearings since 1974 when the above legislation was introduced in the United Kingdom.
To bring the foregoing into the context of a railway reacting to possible terrorist attack, that would depend on a risk assessment being carried out with regard to how likely it was that such a threat would be targeted against the company operations. In the case of a numeric risk assessment a score of less than 10 has to be found against a maximum score of 36. If the initial risk assessment brings forward a score of 10 or more then measures have to be introduced to reduce the score and therefore the risk to both passengers and employees to within that limit.
To put the above into a possible attack scenario, anyone injured in such an attack or the dependants of persons killed would naturally in today’s world wish to claim compensation for those injuries or deaths suffered. If it was then found that the railroad company had taken no preventative action against a possible perceived attack, then the railway company would carry full liability for all legal actions placed against them.
Rj rightly or wrongly the above is today’s world. However, I am glad to state that it has kept me in employment and business by way of assisting and advising employers with safety problems for the last 25 years.
Bill.
Last edited:
I think jeff1959 the trouble is that panic creation has become the norm and folk don't seem to have realised it. Security over there is big business and more agencies than anyone else!
Yes wholbr we are living in a kind of savbage world for all the modernity however different countries with different traditions and their own physce react differently of course. At the same time when one here watches the general reaction in the States it seems to be one of a subdued panic reaction. After all why not advise the long distance bus travellers as more of them use that mode of transport there than rail? There is security and there is security and although general modern media anywhere does not appeal to me there does seem to be a more panic style over the pond. he use of that word "security" becomes not an expression of what it is meant for namely the general well being it has developed into a subtle emotional reaction word. The Embola thing there too unfortunately went a bit over the top and I know, I know it is a danger thing but in reality ann awful lot more folk died in a massive global flue epidemic that ran into millions in the early part of the 19th century.
When I visited America twice I did make a point of travelling by train and enjoyed the occasions. Historically I know it is a pale shadow of what once was by glad i could do it before the hype we tend to get nowadays. Traditions and people are different of course and there is less sense of panic here and glad of that. So now Amtrak has joined the excitement I wait to see the bus companies giving advice now. Having travelled there when I had it was a great train atmosphere and when they found where I was from eneded up chatting with a ggod number and indeed one couple said if ever there agin to visit them in Philly which I did for 2 days. The man had worked for the old PRR and we had good chats about the great days over there.
Emotionally we respond differently by country and for us to react the way Amtrak has would not be something to look forward to at all. Just imagine judging a passenger by the reactions listed as that describes everyone. That is why i state it isn't really intellectually sensible but lacks. Will wait to see the panic merchants singling out the bus companies next good luck to Amtrak and nice to know it is still about doing rail so well.
Yes wholbr we are living in a kind of savbage world for all the modernity however different countries with different traditions and their own physce react differently of course. At the same time when one here watches the general reaction in the States it seems to be one of a subdued panic reaction. After all why not advise the long distance bus travellers as more of them use that mode of transport there than rail? There is security and there is security and although general modern media anywhere does not appeal to me there does seem to be a more panic style over the pond. he use of that word "security" becomes not an expression of what it is meant for namely the general well being it has developed into a subtle emotional reaction word. The Embola thing there too unfortunately went a bit over the top and I know, I know it is a danger thing but in reality ann awful lot more folk died in a massive global flue epidemic that ran into millions in the early part of the 19th century.
When I visited America twice I did make a point of travelling by train and enjoyed the occasions. Historically I know it is a pale shadow of what once was by glad i could do it before the hype we tend to get nowadays. Traditions and people are different of course and there is less sense of panic here and glad of that. So now Amtrak has joined the excitement I wait to see the bus companies giving advice now. Having travelled there when I had it was a great train atmosphere and when they found where I was from eneded up chatting with a ggod number and indeed one couple said if ever there agin to visit them in Philly which I did for 2 days. The man had worked for the old PRR and we had good chats about the great days over there.
Emotionally we respond differently by country and for us to react the way Amtrak has would not be something to look forward to at all. Just imagine judging a passenger by the reactions listed as that describes everyone. That is why i state it isn't really intellectually sensible but lacks. Will wait to see the panic merchants singling out the bus companies next good luck to Amtrak and nice to know it is still about doing rail so well.
Hi rjhowie and everybody.
Rjhowie I would agree with you that there is probably a different psychological acceptance of possible terrorist attack here in Britain than there would be in the United States. The IRA bombing campaign running from the 1970s to the 1990s which affected many British towns and cities conditioned UK citizens to recognise that these atrocities can happen and will happen at times no matter what preventative measures are put into place. An adage was born during those decades which states that “the security forces in prevention have to be successful all the time, a terrorist has only to be successful once”.
In the present heightened security situation I believe there is again a difference in the psychology of the United Kingdom to that of the United States when it comes to the security of the passenger railways. In the United Kingdom over one and a half billion individual rail journeys were made in 2013 as against the half a million made in the US. Therefore to introduce individual security checks in the United Kingdom on passengers arriving at stations would cause enormous disruption probably to a level above which would be unjustified by any risk assessment at present. In the United States however with its much lower level of passenger rail activity, such individual security measures around passengers as has been described could be considered “reasonably practical” as much less disruption is involved.
There also seems to be a difference between Britain and the United States in the operation to protect railways. In the US there seems to be a focus on the possibility of an individual passenger carrying a device on board a train for detonation in an individual coach which would only affect that particular coach of the train. In Britain the emphasis seems to be on protecting the whole train from a large device being planted in a manner which would on detonation cause enough damage to derail the whole consist bringing about much higher death, injury and disruption in the event of it being an HST consist.
During the years of the IRA campaign Britain learned that those bent on acts of atrocity will always go for the “spectacular” if they found it to be possible. An explosive device detonated in one coach of the train or even on a bus would be a terrible event. However, the foregoing would pale into insignificance if an explosive device where to be planted under the lead power car or first coach of a train in such a way as to bring about enough damage to derail that train while travelling at high speed.
The outcome of such an incident as described above does not bear thinking about. It would give those perpetrating such an act the worldwide publicity that these criminals always seek. Therefore the British security focus on protecting the overall rail network and the trains running on it rather than individual passengers is at this point in time the correct one. The foregoing stated, should there be an incident, risk assessments and security focus could very quickly change.
Bill
Rjhowie I would agree with you that there is probably a different psychological acceptance of possible terrorist attack here in Britain than there would be in the United States. The IRA bombing campaign running from the 1970s to the 1990s which affected many British towns and cities conditioned UK citizens to recognise that these atrocities can happen and will happen at times no matter what preventative measures are put into place. An adage was born during those decades which states that “the security forces in prevention have to be successful all the time, a terrorist has only to be successful once”.
In the present heightened security situation I believe there is again a difference in the psychology of the United Kingdom to that of the United States when it comes to the security of the passenger railways. In the United Kingdom over one and a half billion individual rail journeys were made in 2013 as against the half a million made in the US. Therefore to introduce individual security checks in the United Kingdom on passengers arriving at stations would cause enormous disruption probably to a level above which would be unjustified by any risk assessment at present. In the United States however with its much lower level of passenger rail activity, such individual security measures around passengers as has been described could be considered “reasonably practical” as much less disruption is involved.
There also seems to be a difference between Britain and the United States in the operation to protect railways. In the US there seems to be a focus on the possibility of an individual passenger carrying a device on board a train for detonation in an individual coach which would only affect that particular coach of the train. In Britain the emphasis seems to be on protecting the whole train from a large device being planted in a manner which would on detonation cause enough damage to derail the whole consist bringing about much higher death, injury and disruption in the event of it being an HST consist.
During the years of the IRA campaign Britain learned that those bent on acts of atrocity will always go for the “spectacular” if they found it to be possible. An explosive device detonated in one coach of the train or even on a bus would be a terrible event. However, the foregoing would pale into insignificance if an explosive device where to be planted under the lead power car or first coach of a train in such a way as to bring about enough damage to derail that train while travelling at high speed.
The outcome of such an incident as described above does not bear thinking about. It would give those perpetrating such an act the worldwide publicity that these criminals always seek. Therefore the British security focus on protecting the overall rail network and the trains running on it rather than individual passengers is at this point in time the correct one. The foregoing stated, should there be an incident, risk assessments and security focus could very quickly change.
Bill
NSWGR_46Class
Just call my Captain Rude
Terror attacks are about fear getting your enemy to change his ideas or behaviors and or live in fear of you. Thinking there is need to put in all this extra security is in someway giving the terrorist a win.
Perhaps our over reaction is due to not having faced anything like this before. We never, or almost never, had any kind of terrorist attacks outside of three from the past that I can recall. The first being in Boston in 1959 at the North Station train terminal, and the others 40-plus years later in Oklahoma and then we faced the two at the Twin Towers in New York with the final one being the final blow. We then went more than a decade before we got hit by the crackpots in Boston who blew up some pressure cookers at the Boston Marathon. It appears they also had plans for attacks on the "T" as well and devices were found in the nearby subway station. Having said that, we're shocked, panicked and horrified that something like that would happen to us.
Indeed I agree the media makes a bigger hype out of everything, which only makes attacks more worthwhile. If no one reported, or downplayed the attacks here, then the attackers wouldn't get the notoriety boost they're looking for. I'm sorry to say it but big headlines do it, but a passing note on the evening news fit in between the cutesy stories about little kids and kittens, with more news at 11, takes the fluff out of their cause.
The same with the EBOLA. Yes, it's a bad thing and we should take precautions with it, but to blow up every single case into hysteria only makes matters worse, and the only ones benefiting from this is the news media with their bigger advertising dollars. The thing is I'm getting to a point where I don't even watch the news anymore. It's all the same blah, blah, blah, sensationalism on the same subjects. They make a big to-do over nothing most of the time, and will over report a story to a point where I swear the media outlets then look for eye witnesses to a point where they go as far as interviewing the ants on the sidewalk in some cases, making what was once headlines nothing more than repetitious blabber.
John
Indeed I agree the media makes a bigger hype out of everything, which only makes attacks more worthwhile. If no one reported, or downplayed the attacks here, then the attackers wouldn't get the notoriety boost they're looking for. I'm sorry to say it but big headlines do it, but a passing note on the evening news fit in between the cutesy stories about little kids and kittens, with more news at 11, takes the fluff out of their cause.
The same with the EBOLA. Yes, it's a bad thing and we should take precautions with it, but to blow up every single case into hysteria only makes matters worse, and the only ones benefiting from this is the news media with their bigger advertising dollars. The thing is I'm getting to a point where I don't even watch the news anymore. It's all the same blah, blah, blah, sensationalism on the same subjects. They make a big to-do over nothing most of the time, and will over report a story to a point where I swear the media outlets then look for eye witnesses to a point where they go as far as interviewing the ants on the sidewalk in some cases, making what was once headlines nothing more than repetitious blabber.
John
Much to go along with there of course wholbr whilst I still stick by the view that it is a bit over the top in the descriptions Amtrak want to have people watch out for. The wide remit only encourages people to excitement and everyone is the culprit!
Without wanting to deviate too much from railways which is our world here I would say that if we did less about interfering in countries we don't like or try to force our ways on them we get increased terrorist stuff. Same applies to government snooping on everyone whether phone or computer. On the main issue Amtrak does look like being a little bit out of sync with it's list as is borders on the silly and the security word misue I mentioned fits into the slot. And as I pointed out the large numbers who go by bus are excluded!
Here a different tradition and outlook and we are just as modern as the next however the massive use of our railways has no comparison to the US and the system is heavily used and still increasing. Security one wil always be with whilst the misuse of the emotional use of it is a negative. It is used differently in America than here and with less of a panic syndrome. We can all but hope. On a more mundane and casual side I think it is a good thing that Amtrak as a system was created as the fall of passengers and money making for the companies was in freight. All aboard!
Without wanting to deviate too much from railways which is our world here I would say that if we did less about interfering in countries we don't like or try to force our ways on them we get increased terrorist stuff. Same applies to government snooping on everyone whether phone or computer. On the main issue Amtrak does look like being a little bit out of sync with it's list as is borders on the silly and the security word misue I mentioned fits into the slot. And as I pointed out the large numbers who go by bus are excluded!
Here a different tradition and outlook and we are just as modern as the next however the massive use of our railways has no comparison to the US and the system is heavily used and still increasing. Security one wil always be with whilst the misuse of the emotional use of it is a negative. It is used differently in America than here and with less of a panic syndrome. We can all but hope. On a more mundane and casual side I think it is a good thing that Amtrak as a system was created as the fall of passengers and money making for the companies was in freight. All aboard!
Most recent bomb alert here was on Wednesday 600m from my home. Just have to drive around them.
All this talk of terrorist attacks on the railways though... Waste of a damn good locomotive.
And another.
http://victorpatterson.photoshelter.com/image/I0000nt_kezW4sjI
EDIT- I spoke too soon. Bomb squad are out at another alert as I type....
All this talk of terrorist attacks on the railways though... Waste of a damn good locomotive.
And another.
http://victorpatterson.photoshelter.com/image/I0000nt_kezW4sjI
EDIT- I spoke too soon. Bomb squad are out at another alert as I type....
Last edited:
Just a comment.
If I were inclined to be a terrorist, which I am definitely not but let's say if I were then:
There is seemingly nothing to prevent me from boarding a train at my local railway station, which is not manned in the afternoons and evenings, with some sort of device in an ordinary looking bag/case (perhaps a small thermo-nuclear device!) and riding the train for approx 1 hour in to the centre of Manchester (UK) and, having primed the device to give me time to make my escape, then - BANG!
An unlikely scenario for myself but feasible. I don't think any security measures would stop such an event, indeed, having made the journey recently (strictly for social reasons I must emphasise!) I don't recall seeing any armed police or security personel at all, even at Manchester Piccadilly.
Rob.
If I were inclined to be a terrorist, which I am definitely not but let's say if I were then:
There is seemingly nothing to prevent me from boarding a train at my local railway station, which is not manned in the afternoons and evenings, with some sort of device in an ordinary looking bag/case (perhaps a small thermo-nuclear device!) and riding the train for approx 1 hour in to the centre of Manchester (UK) and, having primed the device to give me time to make my escape, then - BANG!
An unlikely scenario for myself but feasible. I don't think any security measures would stop such an event, indeed, having made the journey recently (strictly for social reasons I must emphasise!) I don't recall seeing any armed police or security personel at all, even at Manchester Piccadilly.
Rob.
Last edited:
norfolksouthern37
what's a normal map?
Did you read any of the other comments at all?
1. You are completely wrong about interfering with other countries and blah blah and all that nonsense.
2. Whatever you heard about Amtrak does not appear to be true at least from my point of view. I know of no train station that is anywhere near as silly about security as every airport is. It is time to start citing some sources here as I think you were duped into believing there is some sort of mass hysteria here in the states. Trust me, if a terrorist shows up we will kick their sorry ass just like every other time.
cascaderailroad
New member
I think that your actual response time would be in hours, or days, after the incident occurs
Ahhh Haaa, Atta ... Atta who ? ... Atta say: Surprise ! ... BOOM ... What was dat' ?http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9FZ1EPvhOI#t=136
Ya' dint' get this guy, or his 19 other accomplices, in time: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohamed_Atta
What's the last thing that goes through a bug's mind, when it hits a windshield ?
The US has been attacked on its own soil on at least 5 separate occasions, by foriegn Countries, and terrorist organizations. The attack on Pearl Harbor was a surprise military strike conducted by the Imperial Japanese Navy against the United States naval base at Pearl Harbor, Hawaii, and was attacked by 353 Japanese fighter planes, bombers, and torpedo planes in two waves, launched from six aircraft carriers, on the morning of December 7, 1941. And we never even saw it coming ! Surprise !
Last edited:
norfolksouthern37
what's a normal map?
yes way to miss the point and show just who you are cascade bravo...
To a degree one can acknowledge on the subject of attacks and Pearl Harbour was a dastardly and despicable act. But we too have had figures killed in vast numbers. The London Blitiz killed even more and because at the Battle of Britain win by the RAF, Hitler decided to mass attack civilians which was not expected. London was ravaged for miles espeically in the docklands. Coventry and Belfast horrifically too. Up where I live in Glasgow the River Clyde and the next door town of Clydebank got th the same vicious treatment. Indeed the town of Clydebank was so badly flattened there were hardly streets left. So there are others who suffered and even more.
At the same time I do not advocate no keeping an eye on security after all when London was attacked more recently in was a routine double-decker local bus where folk were killed. The point we are missing is that to give the descriptions they gave it looks odd and with such a wide list being panicky could be the order of the day. In fairness, Amtrak is not being just foolishness but the way it came out with this means you would hardly enjoy a train trip if you are watching every person for every movement as suggested. Security has to be taken with common sense and practicality. Different countries can have different levels of emotion and attitudes but as Amtrak is keeping passenger rail alive or it would have been gone I hope things continue to go for it and it's future.
At the same time I do not advocate no keeping an eye on security after all when London was attacked more recently in was a routine double-decker local bus where folk were killed. The point we are missing is that to give the descriptions they gave it looks odd and with such a wide list being panicky could be the order of the day. In fairness, Amtrak is not being just foolishness but the way it came out with this means you would hardly enjoy a train trip if you are watching every person for every movement as suggested. Security has to be taken with common sense and practicality. Different countries can have different levels of emotion and attitudes but as Amtrak is keeping passenger rail alive or it would have been gone I hope things continue to go for it and it's future.