maxweight problems?

[Heinrich505]

Hmmm, I only see 60013:2. Maybe it just hasn't gotten to Texas yet. I checked 60013:2 for asset versions, but there wasn't a newer one.

I'll check in the morning.

 

[Heinrich505]

I only see <kuid2:44179:60013:2> Coal for either CM or DLS as available to download. Where did y'all see that kuid?

Or, perhaps it's only been put out to versions above 105096 (non-plus).

 

[normhart]

I only see <kuid2:44179:60013:2> Coal for either CM or DLS as available to download. Where did y'all see that kuid?

Or, perhaps it's only been put out to versions above 105096 (non-plus).

<KUID2:44179:60013:2> is the correct version uploaded Jan. 31, 2020 with mass = 0.86

<kuid2:44179:60013:1> Coal - Nov. 2019 with mass = 1.35
<kuid:44179:60013> Coal - Original with mass = 0.86

I'm not sure where Dean got the version :3> from.

 

[Heinrich505]

Cool, thanks Norm. [Breathes sigh of relief and heads for the CM...]

 

[Heinrich505]

I'm happy to report that, with the coal kuid2:44179:60013:2 in place, Scratchy's session TS19 Coal to Richmond was completed with no problems. I was able to get the coal consist up and over the hill as per the session, with the two engines. Richmond is rejoicing, because the coal shipments had become infrequent as the RR had to borrow more powerful motive power to get the loads across the mountain. Thanks N3V!

Heinrich505

 

[danddhud]

Heinrich505 and Norm,
I screwed up, sorry for the inconvenience.
Dean

 

[Heinrich505]

Not a problem Dean. It's all good.

 

[ZecMurphy]

Using the method Zec discusses we still have the problem where a heavy cargo would not fill the "real" hopper up when it reached the max weight limit but we'd see the hopper 100% full in Trainz because the queue we specified is 100% full. Would we need different animations to represent each product density? Or a custom script and a way to determine what % of total hopper volume this queue represents? The actual volume available to load in the real car never changes but doing it this way we have to change that volume for each product carried.

This is something I've thought a bit on with various 'open wagons' (as we call them, sort of a cross between a goldola and a hopper; but with side doors instead of bottom) that carried bulk products.

For my wagons, I have 2 (or possibly up to 4, depending on how I separate commodities that are tarped or not tarped) with separate animations. The queues are configured for the most important/common commodities that I'll use (although the difference is fairly minimal between them anyway). So the commodity with coal in it will have the 'size' set for the coal commodity. However a queue with, say, various 'grains' and other 'bulk' loads will have the units set for what ever will be most common (probably wheat in that case). If some of the commodities end up with too great a mass, I'd add in an extra queue to account for this. But I definitely try to limit the bulk queues to no more than 4 where possibly, especially since these wagons carriage other non bulk commodities. A wagon that only carries bulk commodities could certainly have more queues though.

I have, however, put in a request for a 'max weight' type tag for traincars, so as to possibly achieve something like you have mentioned. But as to when this might be looked at, I don't know. But I agree, it would make life easier than having to do multiple queues.

I would say this though, when it comes to realism with bulk commodities. Multiple queues does allow you to change the shape of the bulk load, in particular with the options of skinned/physique animations where the load can change shape throughout the animation. For some loads, a very flat shape is more appropriate, whilst others a very humped shape is going to be more appropriate. In the case of the VR's 4 wheel wheat wagons, this was a fairly 'pyramid' shape with a flat top when loaded. Coal tended to be more of a rounded 'mound' in the middle of the wagon.

Regards

 

[pitmilly]

[TABLE="width: 624"]
[TR]
[TD]


Item
Number
[/TD]
[TD]
A

Car Description and
Kuid Number

[/TD]
[TD]
B

Listed
Net Car Weight


[/TD]
[TD]
C

Listed/Displayed
Load Volume/Weight for Coal at 0.86kg/litre
[/TD]
[TD]
D

Listed/Displayed
Maximum
Gross Car Weight
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]

1
[/TD]
[TD]

Greenville
100 ton Open Top Hopper
ATSF/BNSF

[/TD]
[TD]

61,800 lbs
30.9 short tons
[/TD]
[TD]
3,780 cu ft
(x 28.317) = 107038 Litres
(x 0.86) 92052 kgs
(x 2.205) 202976 lbs
( / 2000)
= 101.45 short tons

[/TD]
[TD]

263,000 lbs
131.5 short tons
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]

2
[/TD]
[TD]
N3V
RPPX 100 ton Hopper
K 92924:100055

[/TD]
[TD]

26 short tons
[/TD]
[TD]
90,800 litres
(apply formula)
86 short tons
[/TD]
[TD]

112 short tons
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]
3
[/TD]
[TD]
PRR
H21a Hopper

[/TD]
[TD]
37,100 lbs
18.55 short tons
[/TD]
[TD]
2620 cu ft = 74190 litres
(apply formula)
70.34 short tons

[/TD]
[TD]
210,000 lbs
105.5 short tons

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]
4


[/TD]
[TD]
N3V
H21a Hopper PRR
K 68926:19131000

[/TD]
[TD]

22 short tons
[/TD]
[TD]
73,840 litres
(apply formula)
70.01 short tons

[/TD]
[TD]

85 short tons
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]
5

[/TD]
[TD]
PRR
H43 3 Bay Hopper

[/TD]
[TD]
62,300 lbs
31.15 short tons
[/TD]
[TD]
3785 cu ft = 107183 litres
(apply formula)
101.6 short tons

[/TD]
[TD]
265,000 lbs
132.5 short tons
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]
6


[/TD]
[TD]
N3V
H43 3 Bay Hopper PRR
K 2:56063:181001:
[/TD]
[TD]

18 short tons
[/TD]
[TD]
58,900 litres
(apply formula)
55 short tons

[/TD]
[TD]

68 short tons
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]
7

[/TD]
[TD]
PRR
GLa Hopper

[/TD]
[TD]
37,100 lbs
18.55 short tons
[/TD]
[TD]
2190 cu ft = 62014 litres
(apply formula)
58.7 short tons

[/TD]
[TD]
138,200 lbs
69.1 short tons
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]
8


[/TD]
[TD]
N3V
GLa Hopper PRR
K 68926:15518308
[/TD]
[TD]

17 short tons
[/TD]
[TD]
52,743 litres
(apply formula)
50.08 short tons

[/TD]
[TD]

63 short tons
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]
9
[/TD]
[TD]
Total Prototype weights
[/TD]
[TD]
99.15 short tons
[/TD]
[TD]
332.09 short tons
[/TD]
[TD]
438.6 short tons
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]
10
[/TD]
[TD]
N3V
Total Weight
Sum of above 4 listings
As displayed on screen

[/TD]
[TD]


81 short tons
82 short tons
[/TD]
[TD]


276,283 litres/261 s/tons

[/TD]
[TD]


328 tons calculated
320 tons displayed

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]
[/TD]
[TD]
[/TD]
[TD]
[/TD]
[TD]
[/TD]
[TD]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


Following on from my post #10, my thanks to Zec and Bob for their respective treatises on volume/density/weight – yes, I do accept that volume is “Key”, - also to Bill 69 for flagging up www.simetric.co.uk/si_materials.htm . Very useful information. I’ve since gone back to my Chart, trimmed the content and corrected a very significant error.

The load volume/weight values for all four prototype cars, (Rows 1, 3, 5, 7, on the revised chart), was taken from published sources and converted to short tons using the formulas shown. The values for the net, coal load and gross weights of the equivalent N3V cars, (Rows 2, 4, 6, 8) were those obtained from the config.txt sheets and on screen in “View Details” (Ctrl + RMB). My initial mistake was in assuming that the figure shown for the coal load in each car (See Column C, items 2, 4, 6 and 8), was the weight of the coal load expressed in lbs. I later realised that the figure shown is the cubic capacity of the hopper; i.e. the space available within the hopper to carry the load, usually expressed in the prototype as X cubic ft but for N3V cars, converted and shown as X litres. Didn’t I feel the idiot.

Using the published volume in cubic feet for the four prototypes, first converting to litres, applying the coal density factor and then converting from Kilograms through to short tons, with the addition of the car net weight, results in a gross tonnage figure that is a close approximation of the published maximum permitted weight for each car. The same formula when applied to the N3V RPPX 100 ton Hopper (See Row 2), results in a gross car weight for the session which is comparable to the gross weight of the prototype Greenville car in Row 1 above. The final gross weight comparison is even closer if the N3V load volume is increased from 90,800 litre to match the 107,038 litre load of the prototype Greenville car.

In summary, the 0.86kg/litre density factor (as per the original Auran Kuid) when set against an realistic figure for car load volume would appear to produce a prototypically accurate load for any consist but it’s clear from the figures shown in Row 6 that not all these assets have been compiled using prototype data or possibly even the same formula. While all the cars have the appearance of being loaded to maximum capacity, the appearance of the coal in each car indicates three different graphics.

At least I have a better understanding of coal loading and “Yes, I too can now get that 15 car consist up the hill in Coal Country”.

John Webster

 

[danddhud]

Coal kuid 2:44179:60013:3 was uploaded yesterday?

 

[normhart]

Coal kuid 2:44179:60013:3 was uploaded yesterday?

Yup, see, you weren't wrong you were just living in the future.

The only change I see between the two is the way they handle icons.

 

[normhart]

Now that we have more or less solved that issue perhaps you bright folks can help out with a related issue.

These are davesnow's Freightcar America Bethgon CoalPorter and alternately socalwb909's Bethgon Coal Porter.

socalwb909
mass                                    19005
string-table
{
  maxweight                             "110721.8"
}
  coal
  {
    size                                120000

davesnow 
mass                                    18914.800781
string-table
{
  maxweight                             "92442"
}
  load
  {
    size                                118931

I believe that davesnow's are Coalporter II aluminum body and socalwb909's are the older Coalporter steel body, based on the visual dimensions of the cars but I'm not sure. They may well be the same car allowing for artistic interpretation.

Using the maxweight from socalwb909 in davesnow's car loaded a bit higher but only just over the crossbars. Note that using the "instant load" fills the cars to the top but loading at the flood loader gives the above result. Both cars use the same script and both are loaded with the auran coal product we've been talking about.

I found these
General Dimensions BethGon II
Overall Length Over Coupler Pulling Faces 53' 1"
Truck Centers 40' 6"
Length (inside) 47' 9 1/8"
Width (extreme) 10' 7" 13/32"
Height (rail to top of side) 12' 8 1/2"
Cubic Capacity 4,520 Cu.Ft. = 127,992 Liters
Light Weight 41,700 Lbs. = 18,915 Kg
Load Limit 244,300 Lbs = 110,949 Kg
Gross Rail Load 286,000 Lbs. = 127,727 Kg

 

[pitmilly]

Normhart

The config.txt files for these cars state the nominal (Coal) load and the String Table/Max Weight.

These are:-

BethGon PPLX Load - 120,000 (litres) Maxweight - 110,721.8

FABg Coalporter Load - 118,931 Maxweight - 92,442

Assume all the values are litres, use the 0.86 kg/ltre coal density factor, then convert to short tons.

If my math is correct the results will be 113 s/tons and 104 s/tons for the Bethgon PPLX; for the FABg Coalporter, the corresponding figures will 112 s/tons and 87 s/tons.

My guess(????) would be that these cars are loading the Maxweight values, not the Load hence at 92,442, when compared to the 110,721.8 value, the FABg Coalporter car appears to be only ¾ full.

For the record, I test loaded both these cars using the JR Parker Coal Tipple. Had exactly the same result, one full and one ¾ full car.

Regards

John Webster

 

[pitmilly]

Now that we have more or less solved that issue perhaps you bright folks can help out with a related issue.

These are davesnow's Freightcar America Bethgon CoalPorter and alternately socalwb909's Bethgon Coal Porter.

socalwb909
mass                                    19005
string-table
{
  maxweight                             "110721.8"
}
  coal
  {
    size                                120000

davesnow 
mass                                    18914.800781
string-table
{
  maxweight                             "92442"
}
  load
  {
    size                                118931

I believe that davesnow's are Coalporter II aluminum body and socalwb909's are the older Coalporter steel body, based on the visual dimensions of the cars but I'm not sure. They may well be the same car allowing for artistic interpretation.

Using the maxweight from socalwb909 in davesnow's car loaded a bit higher but only just over the crossbars. Note that using the "instant load" fills the cars to the top but loading at the flood loader gives the above result. Both cars use the same script and both are loaded with the auran coal product we've been talking about.

I found these
General Dimensions BethGon II
Overall Length Over Coupler Pulling Faces 53' 1"
Truck Centers 40' 6"
Length (inside) 47' 9 1/8"
Width (extreme) 10' 7" 13/32"
Height (rail to top of side) 12' 8 1/2"
Cubic Capacity 4,520 Cu.Ft. = 127,992 Liters
Light Weight 41,700 Lbs. = 18,915 Kg
Load Limit 244,300 Lbs = 110,949 Kg
Gross Rail Load 286,000 Lbs. = 127,727 Kg

Normhart

Following on from my #33 post, rightly or wrongly, have just gone in FABg Coalporter (undecorated version) config.txt file and have edited the max weight value from 92,442 up to 120,000, saved file, closed config.txt, submitted edits for that Kuid and closed Content Manager. Opened my test track session, loaded that car and run same through JR Parker Coal Tipple. The car loaded to an approx 92% full load, only the outer edges of the cross spars are showing. On that basis you could probably increase the max load value even further.

John

 

[normhart]

but "Cubic Capacity 4,520 Cu.Ft. = 127,992 Liters"

"The car loaded to an approx 92% full load, only the outer edges of the cross spars are showing." This appears to be the limit of the animation, no matter how much you put in the car above a certain amount it only goes to here.

I upped the maxweight to 127000 and ran it through the flood loader and it filled to the ends of the center spars. Checking the car details via ctl/rtclick gave a car weight of 133 tons, checking via "?" gave me a max load of 118931(liters?).

 

[pitmilly]

Agreed, as it applies to the prototype but, and I'm open to correction on this, I can't find the figure of 127,992 anywhere in the config.txt file of either N3V car.

The only figures being used by N3V appear to be 120,000 and 110721 for BethGon and 118,931 and 92,442 for Freightcar America.

 

[normhart]

I upped the size to 127992 and upped the maxweight to 129000 (still fine tuning this) and this resulted in a ctrl/rtclk car weight of 142 tons which seems to agree with the "Gross Rail Load 286,000 Lbs. = 127,727 Kg".

 

[danddhud]

I removed the whole string table section in the config file for the Freightcar American type hoppers as mentioned in an earlier reply from Norm and everything worked fine. I haven't tried since latest coal update. I know ideally someone shouldn't have to change config files, but it is a one time fix? I had tried before adjusting values but this seems like a much simpler work around.
Dean

 

[normhart]

I put the string table back in myself for the socalwb909 cars but maybe that's the best choice for some of the hoppers.

 

[danddhud]

I didn't mess with any of socalwb909's, if it ain't broke.
Dean