Los Angeles Commuter Train Derails

I will never get on a train that is being pushed by a trailing locomotive, push-pull service is just an unsafe way of moving trains, the RR being too lazy to wye or loop the train, so that the lead engine is in front.
 
I will never get on a train that is being pushed by a trailing locomotive, push-pull service is just an unsafe way of moving trains, the RR being too lazy to wye or loop the train, so that the lead engine is in front.

Complete Bull****. Never heard such a silly comment before, sorry.
 
Its a fine enough method, providing you don't have fools that want to park their car/truck in-front of you. I think that is more of the issue... Don't you guys have any scary adverts?
 
I will never get on a train that is being pushed by a trailing locomotive, push-pull service is just an unsafe way of moving trains, the RR being too lazy to wye or loop the train, so that the lead engine is in front.
That has to be one of the most ignorant things I've ever heard about trains. You act as if such accidents are commonplace, with tons of fatalities and statistical proof of its lack of safety. And to call railroads lazy for using this practice is just shameful. Without push-pull trains, schedules would be a lot slower and many of the passenger services we enjoy today would likely not exist. They use this practice for both them and us, to meet our demands for more trains in a limited schedule. If we want our trains, we must trust that they're safe enough for us. Modern operators would not willingly put us in direct danger if they want our ticket fares. At least with Metrolink, they're spending millions of dollars replacing the Bombardier bi-levels with the Hyundai-Rotem cars to improve safety, should an accident occur. They recognized that safety is a concern and are dealing with it. Today's accident has shown just how safe these trains are with the new passenger cars, as compared to the Glendale accident back in 2005, which had similar circumstances.
 
What happens when a SD45 with 10 cars trailing behind it ... hits a tractor trailer ... Probably the loco would derail and the loco cab might be demolished, killing the crew.

Now take that same train, with an SD45, shoving 10 cars in front of it, and hit the same tractor trailer ... the entire train gets shoved into the tractor trailer ... derailing, and overturning all of the railcars.

A object (a powered locomotive) tends to stay in motion, and will have an equal and opposite effect on all objects it collides with.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZomG3maRew
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ba0t6hFArg4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sieUaTJroP0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9v6AfvKyFKQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9gUFR8P0jQ
 
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What happens when a SD45 with 10 cars trailing behind it ... hits a tractor trailer ... Probably the loco would derail and the loco cab might be demolished, killing the crew.

Now take that same train, with an SD45, shoving 10 cars in front of it, and hit the same tractor trailer ... the entire train gets shoved into the tractor trailer ... derailing, and overturning all of the railcars.

A object (a powered locomotive) tends to stay in motion, and will have an equal and opposite effect on all objects it collides with.

That is a freight train; the train involved is a passenger train. Plus, all push-pull trains have a passenger car with a cab as the last car on the train. With the cab-coach leading the train, which is the case in this incident, the engineer was able to see the truck and was able to apply the emergency brakes. Had the engineer been in the locomotive at the rear of the train, he would not be able to see the truck, and therefore would not know that he had hit the truck and would therefore not have applied the brakes.
 
What happens when a SD45 with 10 cars trailing behind it ... hits a tractor trailer ... Probably the loco would derail and the loco cab might be demolished, killing the crew.

Now take that same train, with an SD45, shoving 10 cars in front of it, and hit the same tractor trailer ... the entire train gets shoved into the tractor trailer ... derailing, and overturning all of the railcars.

A object (a powered locomotive) tends to stay in motion, and will have an equal and opposite effect on all objects it collides with.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZomG3maRew
That may be true, but that doesn't automatically make every push-pull train deadly.
Besides, the trains here using push-pull are, at most, six cars long powered by a loco lighter than a bulky SD45. The Metrolink trains travel through mostly populated areas, which means reduced speeds, and this particular train was made up of four cars. There is far less momentum in these instances, as compared to a heavy ten-car freight train. I concede that the risks are still there, but the danger isn't high enough for people to refuse boarding push-pull trains on the grounds of their safety. Again, these accidents aren't commonplace.

Shouldn't the bigger issue here be people driving onto the tracks when a train is coming, rather than your distrust of push-pull trains?
 
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Shouldn't the bigger issue here be people driving onto the tracks when a train is coming, rather than your distrust of push-pull trains?

The problem is that trains can stop in the same distance as cars can. They do not take into the physics that effect both cars and trains. The train has a larger mass then the car, which means it has more inertia than the car. If a train and a car are going at the same speed, and immediately try to stop, because the train has more inertia than the car means that it takes a greater distance for the train to come to a complete stop than the car.
Here's an example of what I'm talking about:
Several years ago, a man and woman trespassed onto Norfolk Southern property, specifically a bridge, in Chattanooga, Tennessee, in the middle of the night, and got run over by a train. The doctor at the morgue did a toxicology test and discovered that both victims had alcohol in their systems. Soon afterward the families of the victims sued Norfolk Southern, claiming that the train could have stopped in time to not run over the victims.
Once I read that, I thought when they go to court, they're going to get a 'crash lesson' in physics, plus the judge would rule in favor of the railroad because the victims were illegally trespassing on private property.
 
The problem is that trains can stop in the same distance as cars can. They do not take into the physics that effect both cars and trains. The train has a larger mass then the car, which means it has more inertia than the car. If a train and a car are going at the same speed, and immediately try to stop, because the train has more inertia than the car means that it takes a greater distance for the train to come to a complete stop than the car.
Here's an example of what I'm talking about:
Several years ago, a man and woman trespassed onto Norfolk Southern property, specifically a bridge, in Chattanooga, Tennessee, in the middle of the night, and got run over by a train. The doctor at the morgue did a toxicology test and discovered that both victims had alcohol in their systems. Soon afterward the families of the victims sued Norfolk Southern, claiming that the train could have stopped in time to not run over the victims.
Once I read that, I thought when they go to court, they're going to get a 'crash lesson' in physics, plus the judge would rule in favor of the railroad because the victims were illegally trespassing on private property.
Yes, we all here realize as such. But I'm thinking the flashing red lights and the lowering gates should be enough to indicate that drivers are not supposed to cross. Red lights are kind of a well-established international symbol of Stop/Danger. Why are people choosing to ignore this blatant signal to save a minute in their driving?

Answer: They're not smart people.
 
I agree. People parking big trucks on tracks will surely cause devastation accidents, which is the main issue here. The problem here though is grade crossings in general. State and local governments are unwilling to spend money on eliminating them or making them safer until there is an accident. This is probably no different than those horrifically dangerous intersections where there is only a couple of stop signs and no traffic lights. It appears it takes some dreadful accident to finally get the state or city to do something about the situation.

Since all these accidents are investigated by the NTSB, whose job is make our transportation network safer, recommendations will come out of this which will be implemented in to retrofitted and new equipment, driver testing and training, and many other changes for the better. Case in point, the derailment that occurred in Glendale in 2005. Metrolink is now using heavier and stronger cars than they used then. The Hyundai Rotems, as was said above, are far safer than the older Bombardiers used before. As other causes are found in accidents, other changes are made including the now commonplace mandatory drug and alcohol testing requirements, and the bans on mobile phones by the train drivers. The drug law came about due to the Conrail freight accident in the early 1980s; the one that ran a signal and slammed into an Amtrak train on the NEC. This was found to be caused by intoxicated crew on the freight train who didn't bother to stop. This accident also brought about structural changes to the passenger cars and better egress ability with more emergency exit windows, lighting, etc. and better fire retardant materials. The Amtrak accident in Nevada, caused some years ago, lead to changes in the SuperLiner cars and changes to the crossing where the accident occurred. The ban on mobiles came out after the cause was found in another accident to have been inattentive driving. I could list more examples, but these are a few of the incidents that come to mind at the moment. I suggest you read through the completed accident reports at www.ntsb.gov The reports can be quite disturbing, and in some cases awfully boring, but also very enlightening.

John
 
Why do people blatantly disregard crossing signals? It is like walking over a bridge with a sign posted on it saying, "Danger-Bridge may collapse", when you could just go over a bridge close to it that is safe, but will add a few minutes to your trip.
 
I will never get on a train that is being pushed by a trailing locomotive, push-pull service is just an unsafe way of moving trains, the RR being too lazy to wye or loop the train, so that the lead engine is in front.
Here in the UK, British Railways operated push pull high speed units between London and Weymouth for years up to speeds of 80mph without any problems. Between London and Bournemouth two 4 coach trailer units were pushed by a 4 coach power set and from Bournemouth to Weymouth they were pushed by a class 33 "Crompton" diesel. On the return journey the power unit was at the front. They were scrapped because of the asbestos in them but in true Southern Railway/Southern region tradition things were not wasted and the power equipment was reused in the Wessex EMUs. Perhaps British track was maintained to a higher standard than you were used to.
 
Why do people blatantly disregard crossing signals? It is like walking over a bridge with a sign posted on it saying, "Danger-Bridge may collapse", when you could just go over a bridge close to it that is safe, but will add a few minutes to your trip.

It is a total lack of "Situational Awareness". Too busy messing with their phone or listening to music with ear buds, or B. S. ing with a friend or day dreaming about what ever.

It's also called "Paying Attention" something most people don't do today.

Regards,
 
Have you ever seen 63 loaded CR iron ore jennies derail, and the engine keeps shoving back ... it is quite a mess ... 3 tracks of iron ore gennies all jumbled up, all over creation.

Just some of the most notable recent car train accidents were:

In December 2013 Metro-North push-pull passenger train cars are scattered after the train derailed in the Bronx neighborhood of New York, Sunday, Dec. 1, 2013 while rounding a curve, 4 people were killed.

Feb 4, 2015 a Metro North commuter train hits a car about 30 miles from New York City, spearing the first railcar with an electrified 3rd rail, bursting the railcar into flames, 6 people are killed.

There have been many push-pull fatalities, not all of them involving collisions with road vehicles.

I really would not enjoyed this most recient train ride:

Metrolink-Crash-Chopper.jpg


3 cars flipped over, and only one derailed, makes push-pull look 25% safe
 
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Have you ever seen 63 loaded CR iron ore jennies derail, and the engine keeps shoving back ... it is quite a mess ... 3 tracks of iron ore gennies all jumbled up, all over creation.

Just some of the most notable recent car train accidents were:

In December 2013 Metro-North push-pull passenger train cars are scattered after the train derailed in the Bronx neighborhood of New York, Sunday, Dec. 1, 2013 while rounding a curve, 4 people were killed.

Feb 4, 2015 a Metro North commuter train hits a car about 30 miles from New York City, spearing the first railcar with an electrified 3rd rail, bursting the railcar into flames, 6 people are killed.

There have been many push-pull fatalities, not all of them involving collisions with road vehicles.

The first accident was caused by a driver "zoning" out and speeding into a 35 mph curve. Even if this was pulled by a loco, the coaches would have telescoped together, which is one of the main problems with passenger cars anyway due to their structural design and shape.

In the other accident, any passenger cars behind a loco could have had the same thing as the rail buckled up and split. This used to happen with the old strap-iron rail and old wooden passenger cars. Again, passenger cars are not as strong as freight cars even though the equipment run in the US and Canada is constructed much stronger than other places in the world. Germany, for instance runs P-P passenger service and has done so for years without issues. And more consistent with the kind of equipment and rail infrastructure, in the UK the Southern Region is all EMUs and push-pull service on third-rail just like MetroNorth does today, and the New York Central did for 50 years before when steam was banned from downtown New York City.

I never saw an ore train derail, but saw some boxcars and other freight cars scattered about after a derailment caused by a split switch. They looked like someone had taken their model train set and shook the table.

John
 
Have you ever seen 63 loaded CR iron ore jennies derail, and the engine keeps shoving back ... it is quite a mess ... 3 tracks of iron ore gennies all jumbled up, all over creation.

Just some of the most notable recent car train accidents were:

In December 2013 Metro-North push-pull passenger train cars are scattered after the train derailed in the Bronx neighborhood of New York, Sunday, Dec. 1, 2013 while rounding a curve, 4 people were killed.

Feb 4, 2015 a Metro North commuter train hits a car about 30 miles from New York City, spearing the first railcar with an electrified 3rd rail, bursting the railcar into flames, 6 people are killed.

There have been many push-pull fatalities, not all of them involving collisions with road vehicles.

I really would not enjoyed this most recient train ride:

Metrolink-Crash-Chopper.jpg


3 cars flipped over, and only one derailed, makes push-pull look 25% safe
The way to figure out the safety of push-pull trains by percentage isn't by how many cars stay upright in a crash, it's how many crashes there are as compared to safe journeys.

In the December 2013 crash, the results may have been worse if the locomotive were pulling. The heavier engine would have come to rest much more quickly than the passenger cars behind it, possibly resulting in jackknifing and piling up of the passenger cars as they slam into the locomotive. If the opposite happened, and the engine ended up sliding further along the ground, it would've likely pulled the rest of the train with it into the river. Even if the locomotive threw itself just as far as the passenger cars would go, the results would've been the same as they really were.

The February 4th crash involved an EMU, not a push-pull train.

By your logic, you should be afraid of getting into automobiles and buses as well, due to how often there are fatal wrecks on the road. I never go a day without hearing a report about a car accident on the interstate, while train wrecks come around much less often. Cars get crumpled, while these safer passenger cars have proven themselves incredibly safe in this wreck.
Have fun not trusting the majority of the US' passenger trains and a good number of European passenger trains.
 
In Germany we use push pull trains since the 60/70s, up to 220kph in push mode (135mph), and had only one derailment (which happened at 7mph while going over a switch in the Stuttgart Main Station). Maybe the problem isnt the push/pull trains at all, its just the lazy and ****ty safety measures the US Railroads have? Also, as said above by many people, one so has to see that your inhabitants in general are not able to respect railway crossing signs or drive around gates.

Felix.
 
In Germany we use push pull trains since the 60/70s, up to 220kph in push mode (135mph), and had only one derailment (which happened at 7mph while going over a switch in the Stuttgart Main Station). Maybe the problem isnt the push/pull trains at all, its just the lazy and ****ty safety measures the US Railroads have? Also, as said above by many people, one so has to see that your inhabitants in general are not able to respect railway crossing signs or drive around gates.

Felix.
I think the problem is the crossings and human stupidity. Since people haven't learned not to cross when the lights are flashing, maybe we should develop safer crossings that will somehow better keep drivers off the tracks? Separate grades with under and overpasses are an option, but of course such construction projects take time. In the interim, crossing improvements could be done. But that would have to be carried out by the railroad that owns the track, which I think is Union Pacific.

Our push-pull trains here in California don't run with more than six cars, and don't go faster than 80mph. Even then, they only reach those speeds in less-populated areas that have little to no crossings. Fortunately for this Metrolink train, it wasn't going very fast and was able to slow a bit before impact.
 
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