Large Layout Limitations??

[treblesum81]

Hi All,

Just wanted to ask what all of the different limitations one might have to take into account when building an extremely large layout? As some of you may know, I'm wanting to put together something with 500-1000 miles of track (at a minimum), though not necessarily all end to end (branch lines and shunting yards can eat up quite a bit of track), but I've started to get the impression that such a thing would be harder than just smashing 2000 tiles together with track on them, so I'd like to know what I'm up against...

I already know there can only be 255 ground textures (has this changed from TRS2006 to TRS2009?... I've heard that it can handle a lot more and a lot more complex things so perhaps this is one of them...), but I'm sure that this isn't the only problem I'll run into. What other major, known issues are there when creating large maps? Are there limits to the total number of land tiles? Limits to the maximum number of assets? Limits to how long any one stretch of track can be? etc., etc., etc... I'm also curious if there is a comprehensive guide for surveyor in TRS2009? I bought the direct download version, which, at least as far as I can tell at this point, only comes with the manual for TRS2006 and no real help file (doing a search in the help box brings up a blank wiki). Did the boxed version come with a better manual that I've missed out on, and if so, is there a way to get a hold of it without having to reorder the game?

Thanks,
Greg

 

[R707]

Hi All,

Just wanted to ask what all of the different limitations one might have to take into account when building an extremely large layout? As some of you may know, I'm wanting to put together something with 500-1000 miles of track (at a minimum), though not necessarily all end to end (branch lines and shunting yards can eat up quite a bit of track), but I've started to get the impression that such a thing would be harder than just smashing 2000 tiles together with track on them, so I'd like to know what I'm up against...

I already know there can only be 255 ground textures (has this changed from TRS2006 to TRS2009?... I've heard that it can handle a lot more and a lot more complex things so perhaps this is one of them...), but I'm sure that this isn't the only problem I'll run into. What other major, known issues are there when creating large maps? Are there limits to the total number of land tiles? Limits to the maximum number of assets? Limits to how long any one stretch of track can be? etc., etc., etc... I'm also curious if there is a comprehensive guide for surveyor in TRS2009? I bought the direct download version, which, at least as far as I can tell at this point, only comes with the manual for TRS2006 and no real help file (doing a search in the help box brings up a blank wiki). Did the boxed version come with a better manual that I've missed out on, and if so, is there a way to get a hold of it without having to reorder the game?

Thanks,
Greg

Hi Greg,

I have one route that is almost 200 miles long. And I have also made up one DEM map that is almost 2GB in size. Mind you, I have not detailed it with trees, grass, buildings, etc.., yet. I feel it might be just too much. But it does load at the moment. I also have a route that depicts the Cumberland-Connellsvile section of the Western Maryland. This is a very long, and well detailed route.

In TS2009, there is no limit, I believe in the number of textures you may employ, like the 255 limit in earlier versions. Still, I try to keep my selection of ground textures to a minumum. And I do try to keep trees to just a few, but use a lot of them. I don't think there is any limit to the number of tiles you can have. Remember, if you try to model the whole USA, for instance, you probably will never enjoy half of it. Try to render a snapshot of your empire.

I am unaware of any limit on the number of assets. Having said that I always try and keep things to a limited selection. Same goes for rolling stock. I use a select number so it keeps the strain on any video card to an acceptable level. I have never heard of any limits to one stretch of track. But what I do know is this. I have tried to stretch one length of track over a couple of miles, and it does not like this.

Pete :wave:

 

[JimDep]

I have never heard of any limits to one stretch of track. But what I do know is this. I have tried to stretch one length of track over a couple of miles, and it does not like this.

Pete :wave:[/quote]

When you say problems, you are referring to frame rates or something else?

The reason I ask is that I have some long straight stretches that go
a few miles in between towns. I haven't done much texturi9ng in these areas yet, but being there won't be much content in the very rural areas, I wonder if what problems could occur if any.

 

[ex-railwayman]

Hello Greg,

I suppose it also depends on whether you want build this route for your own personal use or release it to the community when completed, then you may have a problem. We all operate different spec computers/laptops, and the bigger the route, the more textures and buildings and track and everything else added up would not work on some machines. Just because it works on your computer doesn't mean to say it will work on everyone elses, and if this takes 1, 2 or 3 years to create, if it gets so big that we cannot download it, or run it to it's full potential, then it would have been a waste of effort. You must always consider frame rates and spline usage, the number of polygons on ground textures, houses, trees, roads, towns/cities, railway stations and freight yards, industries and factories, and if you do a route of 1,000 miles or so, they soon add up. I suppose you could chop it into sections and then upload them onto the DLS one at a time, to make a megaroute, but, they would still need to be merged together.
If it's just for you, then enjoy creating it, but be aware of the potentially huge amount of resource hungry content that you will require.....

Cheerz. ex-railwayman.

 

[treblesum81]

Hello Greg,

I suppose it also depends on whether you want build this route for your own personal use or release it to the community when completed, then you may have a problem. We all operate different spec computers/laptops, and the bigger the route, the more textures and buildings and track and everything else added up would not work on some machines. Just because it works on your computer doesn't mean to say it will work on everyone elses, and if this takes 1, 2 or 3 years to create, if it gets so big that we cannot download it, or run it to it's full potential, then it would have been a waste of effort. You must always consider frame rates and spline usage, the number of polygons on ground textures, houses, trees, industries and factories, and if you do a route of 1,000 miles or so, they soon add up. I suppose you could chop it into sections and then upload them onto the DLS one at a time, to make a megaroute, but, they would still need to be merged together.
If it's just for you, then enjoy creating it, but be aware of the potentially huge amount of resource hungry content that you will require.....

Cheerz. ex-railwayman.

The reason this is actually starting to become an issue is that I'm starting to get the hair-brained idea to recreate the 1940's Super-Chief route... end to end (2,300ish miles). Using DEM / HOG and Google Earth, with its new historical aerials, seems like it will get me a good portion of the way, but ultimately it will still take a lot of doing to detail that much terrain. Two ideas I have are to 1) build the route in 200 mile segments (11 segments might be workable) and then merge them together at the end, and 2) worry less about strict detail and more about building an enjoyable route... i.e. don't try to recreate every building and scenic view, but get the most important stuff in there and "generalize" the rest. This is all still in the earliest brainstorming stage of course, but working with terrain and scenery here is fairly easy and fast (if you're not trying to be photorealistic accurate), so I really think its possible...

 

[ex-railwayman]

That sounds fine Greg, didn't want to put you off or anything, just thought I'd remind you of the Trainz limitations.......:hehe:
There are some really long routes about on the DLS, one of the first ones I downloaded many years ago was the Amsterdam layout which took in nearly all the major towns and cities in Holland, it was massive, but, it worked on everyone's computer. To cut down on asset usage the creator called Jan, just textured the boards and put clumps of trees in between the stations and towns and cities, of course Holland is a flat country anyway, so no problems with mountains or anything like that and you would drive over 4 or 5 baseboards and not see anything, but it worked very well, and it was fully electrified, had lots of canals, fabulously designed cities, and is still one of my all time favourites. It must have covered several hundred miles and the fps only stuttered a bit in the huge built up areas.

Go for it Greg, enjoy yourself, and don't forget the progress screenshots along the way.

Cheerz. ex. :wave:

 

[Euphod]

If you leave segments seperate without merging them, you could use portals to get your consist from one to another as well.

 

[R707]

I have never heard of any limits to one stretch of track. But what I do know is this. I have tried to stretch one length of track over a couple of miles, and it does not like this.

Pete :wave:

When you say problems, you are referring to frame rates or something else?

The reason I ask is that I have some long straight stretches that go
a few miles in between towns. I haven't done much texturi9ng in these areas yet, but being there won't be much content in the very rural areas, I wonder if what problems could occur if any.[/quote]

Jim,

I found when I really made just one long straight section of track, in spots it started to go below the ground level. I just found a few weird things, so I have not done that since.

Pete :wave:

 

[R707]

The reason this is actually starting to become an issue is that I'm starting to get the hair-brained idea to recreate the 1940's Super-Chief route... end to end (2,300ish miles). Using DEM / HOG and Google Earth, with its new historical aerials, seems like it will get me a good portion of the way, but ultimately it will still take a lot of doing to detail that much terrain. Two ideas I have are to 1) build the route in 200 mile segments (11 segments might be workable) and then merge them together at the end, and 2) worry less about strict detail and more about building an enjoyable route... i.e. don't try to recreate every building and scenic view, but get the most important stuff in there and "generalize" the rest. This is all still in the earliest brainstorming stage of course, but working with terrain and scenery here is fairly easy and fast (if you're not trying to be photorealistic accurate), so I really think its possible...

Greg,

I really admire you for the develpoment of your empire. I think what you will be doing, is like a work always in progress. Creating the Super Chief would be truly a huge railroad. In real life it was too.

Why not build it, go for it. Mind you, be prepared to spend a lot of nights immersed in your empire. Remember, you are the CEO, it's your route.

I know there will be a lot of us Trainzers waiting with baited breath to follow your progress. And I also know that this wonderful community would be more than willing to help you along the way.

Don't be put off by the limitations of current hardware. Technology will always get better. Your railroad, and technology will grow as you get bigger. It's your dream that you want to design. Just keep us informed of the progress with pictures etc...

Pete :wave:

 

[treblesum81]

If you leave segments seperate without merging them, you could use portals to get your consist from one to another as well.

This is something I've been curious about for a while... I've installed the eportal cdp (I think its the right one), but when I drive a train into a portal, it just disappears. I'm sure there is something I'm missing, because from what I've read, I should be able to link two maps somehow and just drive through from one into the other as if there were no space there....

Greg,

I really admire you for the develpoment of your empire. I think what you will be doing, is like a work always in progress. Creating the Super Chief would be truly a huge railroad. In real life it was too.

Why not build it, go for it. Mind you, be prepared to spend a lot of nights immersed in your empire. Remember, you are the CEO, it's your route.

I know there will be a lot of us Trainzers waiting with baited breath to follow your progress. And I also know that this wonderful community would be more than willing to help you along the way.

Don't be put off by the limitations of current hardware. Technology will always get better. Your railroad, and technology will grow as you get bigger. It's your dream that you want to design. Just keep us informed of the progress with pictures etc...

Pete :wave:

I just want to be clear that its purely conceptual right now, though, the more I think about it, the more I like the idea. I'm not worried about hardware for the most part, as I'll probably be working with TRS2009 content, which is supposedly able to work better with larger quantities of highly complex items than TRS2004-2006. I've also read that really detailing a route takes up to a month per tile / mile (I can't remember which it was), and while I doubt it will really take that long for me... like I said I'll probably cut back a little on detail so I don't spend the rest of my life building the route and never get to run it... the route will probably have several thousand tiles to contend with, so I almost expect that when its finished most people would be able to run it at least in portal form fairly well. Whatever the case, I'll probably just be happy to finish the thing... if only because it will offer many hours of rolling fun... plus a good jumping off point to create all of the different branch lines that spring off of the main line across all of those 2,300 miles...

 

[Euphod]

This is something I've been curious about for a while... I've installed the eportal cdp (I think its the right one), but when I drive a train into a portal, it just disappears. I'm sure there is something I'm missing, because from what I've read, I should be able to link two maps somehow and just drive through from one into the other as if there were no space there....

First: I'm assuming Portals still work in 2009.

Second: You must have at least one on each layout.

Thirdly: They are configued by activating the details button (?) and then clicking on the portal.

 

[SuperFudd]

Hmmm...

Using portals? verryy interesting. That way you could have a 2000+ mile route without buiding all 2000+ miles. Of coarse you could use the model railroad trick and compress it but that would mess up the scedule, the running time between points and reducing the speed limits is un-cool. With portals however, you can use them between long boring parts with no turnouts. Just set the time until re-apearing to the running time for the "missing" section. That could work.

 

[nbrettoner]

If you leave segments seperate without merging them, you could use portals to get your consist from one to another as well.

Hi Euphod,

Has anyone any comment on comparisons between this method & having one big route?.
The NSW routes that conjoin using a central 'joiner' section comes to mind, as a project that could possibly benefit from this method, if it loads better.

 

[treblesum81]

Hmmm...

Using portals? verryy interesting. That way you could have a 2000+ mile route without buiding all 2000+ miles. Of coarse you could use the model railroad trick and compress it but that would mess up the scedule, the running time between points and reducing the speed limits is un-cool. With portals however, you can use them between long boring parts with no turnouts. Just set the time until re-apearing to the running time for the "missing" section. That could work.

If I do go the route of using portals to join segments, I'll still model all segments, partly because it kinda defeats the purpose of building a 40 hour route if it doesn't take you 40 hours to run it (using appropriate speed limits of course), and partly because it would then only be a matter of deleting the portals and merging the routes to make the segments into a super-route...

 

[Dermmy]

Two problems you will encounter if you go the 'one big route' way are:

1. Merging DEM's in MicroDem (if you are using HOG) is difficult for large routes, there is a deffinite upper limit to how many can be merged. Whether TransDem can handle such a large route or not is another matter.

2. Pre-TRS2009 the largest file Trainz can open is 2Gig, so a route with a 2Gig 'gnd' file sets the only effective limit to route size. Whether this limit still applies in TRS2009 or not I do not know...

 

[markbin]

Two problems you will encounter if you go the 'one big route' way are:

2. Pre-TRS2009 the largest file Trainz can open is 2Meg, so a route with a 2Meg 'gnd' file sets the only effective limit to route size. Whether this limit still applies in TRS2009 or not I do not know...

You mean 2 Gig ?
I have no problems with a 60 Meg gnd (700 tiles route) in 2004 and 2006.

 

[treblesum81]

Two problems you will encounter if you go the 'one big route' way are:

1. Merging DEM's in MicroDem (if you are using HOG) is difficult for large routes, there is a deffinite upper limit to how many can be merged. Whether TransDem can handle such a large route or not is another matter.

2. Pre-TRS2009 the largest file Trainz can open is 2Meg, so a route with a 2Meg 'gnd' file sets the only effective limit to route size. Whether this limit still applies in TRS2009 or not I do not know...

Where can I find good information about MicroDem, HOG, and TransDem as they pertain to Trains? I've looked at the TransDem site, but every time I try to move away from the first information page, it goes to German (I think) and then I can't figure anything out anymore. I know what DEMs are and, for the most part, how to use them (thanks to Sim City 4 for that), but importing into Trainz seems to be like a 50 step process (probably not really, but I've not found much in the way of straightforward instructions on the process). Beyond that, I've never even heard of MicroDem or HOG....

 

[Dermmy]

You mean 2 Gig ?

DOH!! yep - original post corrected

 

[Dermmy]

Where can I find good information about MicroDem, HOG, and TransDem as they pertain to Trains? I've looked at the TransDem site, but every time I try to move away from the first information page, it goes to German (I think) and then I can't figure anything out anymore. I know what DEMs are and, for the most part, how to use them (thanks to Sim City 4 for that), but importing into Trainz seems to be like a 50 step process (probably not really, but I've not found much in the way of straightforward instructions on the process). Beyond that, I've never even heard of MicroDem or HOG....

HOG and MicroDem are the freeware tools by which DEMs are imported into Trainz- see Wewain's tutorial here. It is an old tute written for TRS04 and an earlier version of MicroDem than is currently available. Most of the required changes are intuitive, for those that are not there is plenty help to be had on the forum.

For TransDem there are a couple of good threads in the Payware forum. It is quicker and easier than the freeware method (after a fairly steep learning curve), is much more accurate than the alternative, and imho is with every penny...

 

[edion2]

I am one who encountered the LIMIT.

The LIMIT is the one imposed on ALL APPLICATIONS by . . . good old MICROSOFT. All application that run under 32 bit widows XP is limited to 2GB maximum. PERIOD.

When you reach this limit in 2006 some nasty things happen. The big one is the SAVE FUNCTION stops working. You MUST use the SAVE AS function. This means that the route KUID changes every time you SAVE AS. The other problem is SAVE AS is that only the current session is saved. The other sessions get orphaned.

I am working in 2009, but the same limitation applies. 2GB file size maximum and your SAVE FUNCTION stops working. Although, 2009 handles this situation far better than 2006. 2006 surveyor slowed downed so much that a simple UNDO task was taking nearly a full minute.

File size is not dependent on the number of baseboards used, rather its governed by mow much "poly" (3D information) you put on it. Since this is virtual, I build realistic routes. While it fine for many, routes that look like most built-in routes are not my cup-of-tea.

When I started to build again with 2009, the first thing I did was to take my route and chopped it up into three routes. Two of the three "piece-route" is getting close to being finished. The sessions runs across routes via I-PORTALS. They are used as "user" Portals and AI have their own on each "route pieces".

I never counted any baseboards but I think they are modest. Maybe around 400 to 500 I think. Not much in mileage. Round trip at 50MPH on one is about 50 minutes and about 80 minutes on the other. The third is not finished.

My computer is a Core2Duo 3.0Ghz - 4MB RAM with the Nvidia GTX280 video card with 1GB video RAM. Not "extreme" but no slouch either.

I get an average of 18 FPS with my route with Open GL. Twice or more FPS with Direct X but its more jittery with bad artifacts on distant objects. I'd rather sacrifice FPS than better visual realism. What I get with Open GL is workable.

I will never upload my route to DLS. I may share it on a CD as CDP files at some date.

SO . . . just the description of "large route" needs better definition. You can create a route with just textures and tracks that might measure 16 hours of round trip driving time at 60MPH . . . but where is the fun in that.

What we all want is a good combination of a properly operating railroad in a visually appealing environment that suits your railroad interest within your talent and abiity.

It takes many hours practice to get good at it. Start small first before you attempt your 1000 mile masterpiece.

I started in TRS2006 in November 2007. I took 5 months off because 2006 became unusable due to the file size of my route. I started again with Beta 2009 last December. So in total, I've only been building my route for a total of 10 months.

I'm no master with the Surveyor. I still have a lot to learn. I just started learning AI operations.

I think it is best to design a "large" creation in pieces or sections. Its the best way I can think of to side step the current state of "Limitations".

A picture is worth a thousand words. Here are some samples of my "route pieces" that gives a good visual indication about what a route looks like that can bring a preety decent computer to its knees.

Please be warned, these are large images of up to 1920x1090. I use Image Shack. When the new window opens, you need to click the image AND expand your window to nearly full screen to view the image full screen size.