Is Trainz a Threat to the Traditional Model Railroad Business Model?

[bendorsey]

Ya know - Sparky15 has a point there.

I've been reading MR since the late 50's and I can't ever remember seeing a bad review. Some items got slight mentions for not conforming to one or the other RP's (recommended practices) or some very minor discrepancy in being true to the prototype but I can't ever remember a review saying this or that is a hunk of junk - don't buy it.

That's something they dare not do even if the product is a hunk of junk. No advertiser would want their product reviewed and to be on the safe side would probably pull their advertising.

Ben

 

[rjhowie]

Model railways an simulators are of course like politics, religion or whatever a personal choice. When i had to retire early from work I mused on building a model rail in my loft. In my boyhood days I had a train set initially and was from a German maker called Rokal. They went belly up many years ago and I eventually in my realy teens moved to what was then Hornby Dublo. Had it on a board and thought when I started work and got some money in would do something bigger. However that didn't happen such are the challenges of life!

On leaving work the thought cam back to me and I had visited the large Annual Scottish Model Rail Show but noticed that costs were a lot different than my boy days! Came across Microsoft Train Sim and thought it a bit clunky and the idea of trying to build something was beyond me being so non-techy on such (like man). Then by sheer chance searching on the net I came across trainz 4 and I was seeing something even I could build with. Have never looked back and I can drive for hundreds of miles and not be limited to an attic (!). This also gave me the opportunity of bringing back to life the tramway system that closed here in Glasgow back in 1962. This was followed by doing the whole of N. Ireland Rlys over in Ulster where I had been so oiften and taken BB Camps to. At present have extended over the border and working around Dublin.

I still like model railways at exhibitions and I am sure still a great hobby and i have found a great hobby that is also a help on days health effects me . There is no end to what you can build and like I am doing re-enact actual lines and such. So both model and sims have their equal places. If aliens landed then I would have to be really dragged screaming away from my Trainz building but then coming from the gritty, great city of Glasgow then probably wouldn't dare.

 

[sparky15]

After discovering Trainz and MSTS I was put off actually building a model railroad. Even if I had a full basement and unlimited funds, it will always be the same route and rolling stock that needed several operators to run. With Trainz I can have an "operating crew" via the AI anytime I wanted. No need for that once a month session when you can get enough people together.*

Not the same as a model railroad. Sometimes better, sometimes worse. Always at your fingertips when you are ready. Multi player if wanted. AI all the time

 

[betsy662]

As one who has been a model railroader since the late 1960's, I actually started out in N scale when it was just a novelty, now the question was, is V scale a threat to scale model railroading, lets put it this way, not really scale model railroading, and Wm. K Walthers is more of a threat to the hobby of model railroading than V scale could ever hope to be!

I can remember buying old Athearn Blue Box F units for around $13 each, powered with duel flywheels no doubt, were they as detailed as today's Athearn Genesis, no, but with about a months wages in detail parts they could be! same with just about everything else in model railroading, I know that I never got around to building that big detailed dream layout I always wanted, and guess what, neither have a lot of other folks, my first train sim, MSTS, was somewhat disappointing, I never could catch onto how everything worked, but I did buy it the moment Wal-Mart got them in, I could actually run some trains, on that old Gateway computer, the graphics weren't much, but hey, I was running trains!

Then a year or so later, I came across a copy of Trainz UTC, on ebay, got it and never looked back, oh! I've build model railroads in that time also, over the last ten or twelve years, I built an O scale 2 rail layout, and an HO layout, the current HO layout sits idle, while I play on my computer, I have a sizeable collection of N scale stuff, and I buy and sell a lot of model train stuff, I don't view Trainz or any other sim as a threat to model railroading, I view, again, Wm. K. Walthers and Kalmbach Publishing as the biggest threats to the hobby they claim to love so much, MRH, which is a fairly new player in the field, isn't really following in the footsteps of Kalmbach, but again, is probably scared away by their advertisers, now while Kalmbach Publishing is now also making available digital copies of Model Railroader/Trains and other publications, for a rather large fee, (while MRH is still free to subscribe to), the costs of model railroading is what will eventually kill it, I still like my physical models as well, but I do a lot more with my 3D models than I ever could with the HO, N or even 1/25 scale models I have.

 

[JCitron]

I blame a lot of this too on the publishers and manufacturers as they are trying to hold on to their past. They remind me a lot of Polaroid and Kodak who kept making film cameras and film as the world went to digital. Sadly, these two companies are no longer with us due to this reason. The physical world of modeling is shrinking due to the many reasons that have been mentioned. In part I think this does have a lot to do with the cost when they are pushing everything at the high-end rather than putting things in the middle. Granted, they are looking for a quick profit from the wealthier class that have the cash to spend, but that market is very small. In some respects this would be like N3V only selling Trainz to people that run cyber-powered computers with Cray processors. That market would be quite small compared to the average and above-average computer owner.

The sad part is this creates elitism and drives people away from the hobby. Combine this with suppliers and manufacturers undercutting the local hobby shop, along with internet sales, and now the local shops disappear and people no longer have the greater exposure to the hobby. Remember too that this is generally an older-person's hobby, and most older people don't have or have an interest in computers so the market is even smaller. The publishers are beginning to see this and now have digital versions of their books and articles. This is a great start, but I think it's too little and too late.

John

 

[2995Valliant]

I originally bought MSTS as a substitute for 00 scale. My fiancee and I had just moved into a new property requiring much renovation, and though there was an 18' x 30' railway room in the plan, finances and the fact that we were doing the rebuild ourselves meant that it would be some years before it happened. I moved to Trainz in 2004 and a few years ago we finally reached the point where I could start to think about about building a model again, so I went to a few model railway exhibitions and started doing some thinking. I always drive in cab mode - DCC started to look a bit dull after that. There's no cabview, obviously. Rolling stock that rocked and wobbled unrealistically, no AI, and now I'm used to full length prototypical routes built on DEM so I realised in almost every respect Trainz suits my requirements betters. There's still one problem - the satisfaction of creating something tangible, but I'm fortunate that I have a number of other creative hobbies (restoring vintage boats, vehicles and machinery) so I can get round that. In other words, yes, for me Trainz has cost the model industry a customer, but overall I'd agree with the view that it's just another scale.

In terms of model manufacturers attitudes, don't forget that in the UK Hornby made their own model railway simulator so presumably they saw it as a way to tap into a new market in the hope they would "upgrade" to physical models.

Anthony

 

[dregeye]

Well, what I have as a memory is just bits & pieces, but I do recall a bigger than HO train in my distant past. Definitely drawn to HO soon after and played with my trains for years & years. No set route. Moved alot. Gone, somewhere along the way in my teens.
I did acquire a rivarossi (sp?) Y6b mallet ($80.00) & bunches of cars & track in my mid-30s following an injury and inability to work for a bit. No set route. Moved alot. Gone somewhere along the way.
I still think about having an HO route that has an indoor segment with seasonal extensions to outdoor routes (I live on 17 acres along the Alsea Bay in Oregon).

Back to the present and reality . . .
I got my copy of TRS2004 on ebay for $9.99
I bought The Cowboy's beautifully crafted 4-12-2's (all 4 of them!) for $18. !!
I have all Ben Neal's amazing steamers including a 2-8-8-2 mallet! FREE!
I enjoy swapping steam engine parts and have a 4-12-12-12-6 running on my routes.
I doubt that I would be willing to disassemble my expensive physical models to try creating mutations.
I can change the power of a loco without rewinding the armature.
I actually believe that I have learned how to operate a REAL steam locomotive with Trainz Cab Mode.
I love the physics model that simulates tonnage - gradients - power - braking and a bunch of other aspects of driving a train over a mountain pass. This is not available in Model Railroading.

This thread makes me think that developing and marketing inexpensive physical model trains time has come. The cost seems to be by far the biggest deterrent to Trainzers having both.

for me, no competition. Just two different ways to enjoy the same obsession . . .
Trains

Greg

 

[haddock57]

Well, as someone who has been into model railroading and Trainz both at the same time, I would say it is a yes and no answer. If you look in the right places, you can find more affordably priced items and easily find an engine that will get you started in the hobby quite affordably. For example, a Proto 2000 SD50 runs for $90 on www.modeltrainstuff.com . Add in a Soundtraxx 4-function decoder ($20) and you have a reliable, good-running engine for $120, including shipping in that amount. It is also still possible to find Atlas Master Series engines with DCC already installed, and Intermountain's newer locos are fitted with dual-mode decoders, first released with their ES44ACs. I got into Trainz simply bc I thought it was an interesting program. And here I am 5 years later, still running this simulator even though I belong to three different model railroad clubs and run my engines there when I can. Does that mean I would quit buying HO scale stuff? Absolutely not. From the other responses here, I think its more a case of resistance and reluctance to adapt to new changes. Though some parts of the traditional model railroad hobby, such as live steam model railroading, are going to be around for a long time to come--a lot of folks like running those and some of the younger generation (like me) might even be putting money aside for a live steam engine of their own. So I don't think its a 'threat', so to speak, but more reluctance and unwillingness to accept a new type of model railroading hobby.

 

[steamboateng]

If the original question is "is Trainz (or V scale) a threat to traditional model railroading" my answer is a resounding yes! Traditional model railroading, at least here in the US, is a close knit community of manufacturers who dominate the markets, Athearn for instance, and distributers, like Walthers. Mom and Pop model shops are long gone. The big boys rule. Thet there's a lot of money in sales for those who can afford it!
Some may have an affinity for the wafting odor of electrified ozone and oily 'smoke'......................sorry, not me. Perhaps layout maintenance is 'fun' to some..............no thanks!
Give me the wide open spaces of 1 mile = 1 mile, TransDem, and a bunch of USGS topo maps, and I can create a railroad empire no traditional modeler can hope to match.
Many modelers simply are not familiar with what a program like Trainz is capable of. In my recent meetings with the North Adams Historical Society and the Gateway Heritage Museum (along with John Citron), the locals were simply amazed at what we showed them, and charmed at the view atop Mount Graylock (thank you TransDem) overlooking the rural countryside.
I don't think of V scale as the poor man's option,.................it's rather the rich man's choice, because your options are so much greater, limited only by vision, imagination, a little hard work and a gazzillion tutorials!
Sooner or later folks catch on.......................our day will come.

 

[xcrossi]

"your options are so much greater, limited only by vision, imagination, a little hard work and a gazzillion tutorials!
Sooner or later folks catch on.......................our day will come."

What he said...Our day is here! "They" just don't know it yet.

I live near one of the largest model railroad shops in the US "Caboose Hobbies"
"They don't want to hear about V trains......

 

[Vern]

you have a reliable, good-running engine for $120

That's still around GBP£80 for a single loco, just too expensive particularly as you still need to buy passenger or freight cars to go behind it. If I told my wife I'd just paid over £100 for a model loco and 3 or 4 coaches she would either section me off to the loony bin, divorce me on the grounds of reckless spending or both...

When I did dabble with model railways many years ago (I'm talking late 70's, early 80's) you could pick up a Hornby or Lima diesel outline loco for around £20 and coaches went for around £4 each. Part of the problem too then is that model railway pricing has raced ahead with inflation compared to other areas where prices have remained constant or fallen in real terms. £600 still buys you pretty much the same holiday now as it did in 1995 (mind I guess that's why airlines no longer feed you and are refitting wide body jets with 3 -5 - 3 seating configuration). Or PC games... In 1995 a Microprose military flight sim sold for £45 retail on the High Street as did most other software titles. In 2014 you would not expect to pay more than £35 for a similar PC game. Or video media - a movie on videotape in the 1990's probably cost around £15. These days they come on superior quality DVD or Blu-ray and cost the same if a little less.

So unless the model railway industry takes a long hard look at driving down costs it is going to struggle to attract new blood or bring back those who have abandoned the hobby in favour of VR such as myself. And as touched on earlier in the thread, if I was fortunate to win a million on the lottery I'd be buying a house with an acre or two of land and setting up my own version of Train Mountain outside, not playing 8' x 4' OO/HO in the spare room!

Some may have an affinity for the wafting odor of electrified ozone and oily 'smoke'.

To be fair, Trainz (and the "other" sim) does kind of offer that when your GPU and CPU are working flat out in Surveyor and the cooling fan is going flat out...

 

[steamboateng]

I here you xcrossi, Charles Ro, another big distributer is about a half mile from me. I usually get greeted with frowns and suspicious eyes. I only occasionaly buy railroad books there, now.

 

[haddock57]

Still, there are those of us who have enough passion and love for the hobby to keep traditional model railroading alive. And as long as it is, those of us who like it will continue to engage in it. I have a foot in both camps, so to speak, and i don't plan to give up model railroading anytime soon. While virtual railroading is nice, nothing really can match the feeling of a project you've worked on for weeks or even months and invested a good bit of time into making something unique that no one else has when you finally see the finished prototype and know that you built it yourself.

 

[pepperref]

Still, there are those of us who have enough passion and love for the hobby to keep traditional model railroading alive. And as long as it is, those of us who like it will continue to engage in it. I have a foot in both camps, so to speak, and i don't plan to give up model railroading anytime soon. While virtual railroading is nice, nothing really can match the feeling of a project you've worked on for weeks or even months and invested a good bit of time into making something unique that no one else has when you finally see the finished prototype and know that you built it yourself.

I'm 56 years old. I railfanned and started building modest garage HO layouts when I was 16. Model railroads gave way to a college, then a wife, and then kids, and then sometime later I learned about train sims. I am not unfamiliar with hand tools, nor am I unfamiliar with computers. I can use both 'tools' to create a model railroad. I learned Blender and GIMP and I can create anything that has ever interested me throughout my fascination with trains. I get just as much satisfaction completing a unique long-term project in Blender than I ever got completing a project with my hands. I can't hold it in my hands, but I know that no other person in the world has one. I recently looked into selling some of my collected HO inventory and was shocked at the prices of quality rolling stock, track, etc. The cost of building a small HO shelf layout would buy me a computer that could run Trainz for years to come. At the moment, I'm using a $500 laptop and still get reasonable Trainz operation, with reduced graphics settings. All things considered, there is just no turning back.

 

[Konni]

Hi,

There is another aspect to V-modelling, and that is what you can do in e.g. trainz but not in HO or N scale modelling.
With HO or N scale modelling one is pretty much dependent upon what the industry produces. Actually, if one looks at published layouts, everyone who has studied the relevant catalogues a bit can easily point out, from which supplier a traincar, locomotive or building was obtained. I realize, that in the US building rolling stock from kits is more common than e.g. in Germany, but I maintain, that building first rate rolling stock is far out of reach of most model railroaders. Kits of buildings are frequently out of scale or ridiculously out of realistic proportions.
In trainz, however, building custom content is an everyday occurence, and as far as I am concerned, a major reason for switching to V-modelling. For instance, building virtual models of the excavators and dumpers used in opencast lignite mining would be impossible in both HO and N scale.
The same applies to another one of my projects, recreating the Grandducal Baden State Railways, which existed between 1840 and 1920, with her routes, buildings, locomotives, signals and other rolling stock. With few exceptions none of that stuff is available as HO or N scale models.
In summary V-modelling opens vast areas, which have either been neglected or are completely out of reach of conventional HO and N modelling.

Cheers,

Konni

 

[haddock57]

Hi,

There is another aspect to V-modelling, and that is what you can do in e.g. trainz but not in HO or N scale modelling.
With HO or N scale modelling one is pretty much dependent upon what the industry produces. Actually, if one looks at published layouts, everyone who has studied the relevant catalogues a bit can easily point out, from which supplier a traincar, locomotive or building was obtained. I realize, that in the US building rolling stock from kits is more common than e.g. in Germany, but I maintain, that building first rate rolling stock is far out of reach of most model railroaders. Kits of buildings are frequently out of scale or ridiculously out of realistic proportions.
In trainz, however, building custom content is an everyday occurence, and as far as I am concerned, a major reason for switching to V-modelling. For instance, building virtual models of the excavators and dumpers used in opencast lignite mining would be impossible in both HO and N scale.
The same applies to another one of my projects, recreating the Grandducal Baden State Railways, which existed between 1840 and 1920, with her routes, buildings, locomotives, signals and other rolling stock. With few exceptions none of that stuff is available as HO or N scale models.
In summary V-modelling opens vast areas, which have either been neglected or are completely out of reach of conventional HO and N modelling.

Cheers,

Konni

A valid point which i do agree with, and it was the same cost factor that got me to return to Trainz. There was an article in MR about a layout built on a $500 budget. Not to shabby and a decent size. So i think its more a choice on the individual's part--do you like virtual trains and railroading, are you steadfast to the traditional models, or a foot in both camps like me? I still think theres enough interest that both sides can coexist for a while.

 

[Big_Boy_Bmw760Li]

I was thinking of making a thread like this but I would rather put my 2 cents instead of being redirected to here.

I'm 21 right now but I had my first train set in 2005. The Acela express ho scale set. (A future classic train set in my opinion) I believe it's a threat in many ways, but I don't think it would put MR's out of business. (I will explain later) One main reason as other's mentioned is money. Building a layout and buying rolling stock is so expensive and in my opinion, overpriced in some ways. With Trainz, I can download high quality loco's or rolling stock for free. I have a 2 variations of a Southern Pacific Sd70 mac, couple of BNSF dash 9's and more. The ho sd70 im looking at runs close to 200 for a sound equipped one. Oh yeah that's another thing Trainz, has on MR don't have to worry about silly stuff like that lmao. And obviously the scales get more expensive the bigger you go. So long story short, I payed 40 bucks and got over dozens of locos that would of cost over easily over a grand if I were to get a ho or o scale version. And that doesn't include track, scenery and all of that cool stuff. I can literally recreate a model railroad, make my own, or recreate a existing railroad literally by curve by curve.

A good example is Approach Medium's model railroad he's making right now.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCrQ2QXqS_o A layout like this would cost thousands to make. And he made it with practically nothing lol. If you showed this to a parent deciding to get their kid a train set, especially in this day of age, it would look rather silly to spend a couple of hundred buck's for a decent train set just to go in a loop. What Auran should do is sell more layout's. (Made by them I don't really like most of these user created stuff)

In my opinion there is only one thing that model railroading has on Trainz or any train sim is the ability to touch your locomotives. I can do that all day man and just feel up my trains. Or even just have a loco on a track just for display on a shelf would be pretty cool itself. Besides that, you can literally do anything you want in Trainz for far less cheap and have more of a realistic experiece. Only downside is that you can't feel your trains, I think that's why model railroading will never disappear.

 

[pware]

I don't recall ever having a model train set and, while I have had a lifelong interest in trains, I never really wanted to build a physical MR. The limitations and disadvantages always seemed obvious to me - the expense, the expertise and time needed, not to mention the space requirement and then what do you do when you have finished it, run it hundreds of times and grown tired of it? I mean how many times do you need to see the local "all stations" go round and round?

Virtual trains, as as been pointed out in this thread, has none of those disadvantages. The expense has been limited to the purchase price of each new release (cheap compared to an MR loco), a donation to KickStarter (well worth it in my opinion), the lifetime FCT I bought a lifetime ago, ISP charges for downloading updates and DLS assets, a few DLC purchases and every 4-5 years a new computer (but that is used for other things as well). I know I am well ahead on the financial ledger with virtual trains compared to MR trains.

The expertise is learned "on the job" but with huge and invaluable assistance from a wide and knowledgeable community, which is probably not much different from the MR world to be fair. Like MR construction, the time involved can be as long as you want - I have just spent 7 years working on one Trainz project (due on the DLS "real soon now" (TM)) - but without the necessity of having to spend most of that time building hundreds of individual trees and the like. The space required is limited to my internal and external HDD storage and not by the fact that I live in an apartment with no basement or attic, and a garage that is needed for a car.

I can do that all day man and just feel up my trains.

Hmmm. I had to think about what that one meant - but I get your drift.

 

[cascaderailroad]

YES ... It cuts sales by almost 100% with each virtual Train Simulator user

Although my freind says: "I want to build a model RR ... And I absolutely don't want any of that computer train simulator schiest" !

15 years later he still has no model RR, nor any Trainz to run

 

[cressjl]

One look at this, and you can see why MRing is a rich-man's hobby:

How much "V-scale" can you purchase for $1,250? Er, just about everything, I'd say...

You can purchase all in V-scale but the bragging rights...

Being one of the first kayak fishermen launching a "barge" in the plastic navy, I know the feeling of being an outsider among the "real" kayakers out there. Some of the points in this thread seem vaguely familiar and closely aligned to those days...