Is there a downside to moving from W7-32 to W7-64

[narrowgauge]

I realise that it involves a clean install to go from Win7 32 to Win7 64 and wonder if the upgrade is worth the effort. I read that there is Windows XP Mode and Windows Virtual PC to take care of the programs that need the earlier versions, is it a hassle to use these?

I have two partitions on HD-0, "C" and 'E', Do I have to reformat the E drive as well as the C drive, or just the C drive?

One major question. I tried XP 64 way back, and found that GMax didn't like it and changed to XP 32. Does Gmax work with Win7 64?

My CPU is an Athlon 64x2 5400 2.8 GHz and the video card is GeForce 9800GT. Current memory is 4GB.

There is a cost effectiveness question here. Which would give the greatest advantage, upgrade to Win 7-64 and buy more memory or replace my video card with a later model. Windows tags my video card as the lowest factor in the performance rating.

Peter

 

[RRSignal]

The truth be told, the memory benefits reaped by going to a 64-bit OS are minimal as far as Trainz is concerned. Even on the worst routes, I can only get Trainz to use a bit more than 2Gb (and that includes TADDaemon and Trainzutil!) and I have XP's /3Gb switch set to allow the application up to 3Gb of memory. I recall somebody saying they got it to use about 3Gb, but your 32-bit OS can handle that with the /3Gb tweak anyway.

Trainz can't use more than 4Gb of memory even under the best of circumstances, so buying more memory wouldn't help regardless of 32 or 64-bit.

I would upgrade the video card and, MAAAYBBBEEE if you had the money burning a hole in your pocket, the CPU, though that would depend on your current motherboard.

Keep in mind though, that your power supply might limit or eliminate your options as far as upgradeability of your video card, so you might have to shell out some cash there too.

 

[narrowgauge]

RRSignal

Thanks for the comments. It does look as though it would be wasted effort to change the OS.

I have been doing a little mental re-arranging. I have a 74gb Raptor that I could install and only load with copies of TS12 and TS10. I figure that cutting load times with the faster drive and Readyboost would be a no-cost effort for a possible/probable increase.

I have to check my PS but I think it is 500W. Next step would be add a new video card, if it exceeds the available power, I could swap it out until I get another PS. Without going to the utmost gaming limits, what card should I aim at, I prefer to stick to NVidia.

I have been checking the cost of doing a full upgrade into my existing Antec case and it is not really justifiable.

Peter

 

[teddytoot]

Peter, I think I am right in saying that XP mode and Virtual PC are only in the Professional and Ultimate versions of Windows 7 and not in Home Premium. I don't know which version you have. I installed W-32 because I was doubtful about the availability of 64 bit drivers for some of my peripherals at the time, but if I had to re-install, I would probably go for W-64 but not because of Trainz which is still a 32 bit program. Perhaps TS14 will be 64 bit.

 

[narrowgauge]

John, I was remiss in not saying I have Win 7 Ultimate. I had seen the restrictions for XP Mode and Virtual PC. When I bought it Ultimate was cheaper than Professional. Figure that one out.

It does seem that moving to Win 7 64 may not give me what I want but I look forward to distilling my answer from the answers to my posted questions. I intend to be around for TS(next version), whatever that one, is so as Win 7 Utimate is supported until 2013, I don't have to make up my mind too soon.

Off topic, I love this forum, it is a gateway to the world.

Peter

 

[clam1952]

Having dual booted 32 and 64 bit on the same PC, I find that there is a noticeable improvement in using a 64bit OS with Trainz even just having 4GB of Ram and for that matter many other programs. It's even more noticeable with 6 or 8 GB.
May have been lucky but I have not found any old 32 bit programs that won't work in 64 bit and I have stuff here I used in Win98, that need anything other than in a few cases setting properties to run in WinXP, no need for any additional fiddling or emulators.

XP mode is only suitable for old applications used in a corporate / business environment, it is of no use for the software or games home users have.

Virtual PC is an emulation and again no use for games and again aimed at corporate use. from MS Tech Net.

"Business productivity applications that run on Windows XP are appropriate for this testing this scenario. However, Windows Virtual PC does not support applications that require bidirectional sound or 3D graphics, which means that consumer applications such as games are not appropriate for this scenario."

Having 8GB, I can quite happily run Trainz plus 3d apps such as 3ds or and Gmax and PSP at the same time and leave them all running with no impact on Trainz when I'm testing things I have created, can't do that easily using a 32 bit OS with or without the 3GB switch. No way I'd ever go back to using a 32 bit OS.
Also Content manager does seems to do things far quicker in a 64 bit environment, not checked but that may well be where the extra memory comes into its own.

Ready boost works well on my ancient 32 bit vista laptop, with it I can run TC3, without it its barely usable. Needs to be in a USB2 port though and the stick card or whatever have a fast access time, Windows will inform you if it's too slow!

 

[whitepass]

A lot of very old games will not load under 64 bit and you will need all new drivers, the only thing I had a problem with was my scanner but Vuescan has drivers for just about every scanner ever made.

 

[RRSignal]

RRSignal

Thanks for the comments. It does look as though it would be wasted effort to change the OS.

I have been doing a little mental re-arranging. I have a 74gb Raptor that I could install and only load with copies of TS12 and TS10. I figure that cutting load times with the faster drive and Readyboost would be a no-cost effort for a possible/probable increase.

I have to check my PS but I think it is 500W. Next step would be add a new video card, if it exceeds the available power, I could swap it out until I get another PS. Without going to the utmost gaming limits, what card should I aim at, I prefer to stick to NVidia.

I have been checking the cost of doing a full upgrade into my existing Antec case and it is not really justifiable.

Peter

I think a 550Ti would probably match your specs well, but with a recommended minimum power supply of 400W, is a bit too tight for my liking. If your 500W supply is from a good manufacturer like Seasonic, I'd chance it but even then, only if you're NOT going to run extra drives and such in your system.

Now, if you go with a new PSU, of 700W or more, and it's from a decent manufacturer, then any single GPU (except 570/580) is a good candidate, though again, I think the 550Ti is a good match for that CPU. If you are planning to upgrade the CPU and motherboard in the very near future, then I might consider a more expensive card to go with that hotter power supply. Otherwise, I'd hold off or at least wait for a good sale.

 

[johnwhelan]

After the problem people had with software under XP 64 bit Microsoft put a lot of effort into ensuring that most software runs under Win 7 64 bit. I suspect GMAX will run especially if you have it running under Win 7 32 bit. Perhaps someone could confirm this? Malc perhaps?

My Auran TS2010 folder is 130 gigs, you probably don't have as much clutter as I do but a 73 gig raptor might be pushing it for both TS2010 and TS12.

To reinstall it is not necessary to format the drive, generally I reformat the partition but again you don't have to. 7-zip is useful for archiving to a different partition or drive. Having a separate drive for the operating system usually pays performance dividends. If the Raptor is going spare I'd use it here. The reason is it cuts down head moment, using partitions typically increases head movement and lowers performance. However on a single drive system I usually set up the operating system in its own partition so I can reformat it without losing data.

ReadyBoost was designed for systems without much memory, Win 7 likes .5 gigs and can use more, main memory is much faster, however practically anything is faster than hard drive access. Also you don't have to open the case which is a consideration for some people.

Check with www.crucial.com to see which memory sticks you'd need to upgrade internally. The cost shouldn't be that bad but I don't think you have newegg or the equivalent down under.

If Windows is using the USB stick then it will make use of more main memory.

If you have an Antec case you might even have an Antec power supply, in which case your 500 watts really is 500 watts, brand X can be a little lower.

Have a look through here
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/gaming-graphics-card-review,3107.html

I'd limit yourself to graphic cards that are lower than 150 watts TDP, 151 would be fine. The AMD cards at the moment are the watt / performance leaders.

Just reinstalling Windows 32 bit may well give you a performance boost. Over time it gets cluttered and occasionally a bit of Malware sneaks in. I've seen some quite good results doing this.

Personally I'd go Win 7 64 bit, these days the component manufacturers put a lot of work into driver performance. They put more effort into the most popular operating system which happens to be Win 7 64 bit at the moment.

Also although we've talked about Trainz doesn't use more than 2 gigs often when it does it will start to use the hard drive, so its nice if it can use memory instead.

Win 7 64 bit is a little bit more secure than 32 bit and there are a number of technical improvements over the 32 bit version that I rather like about it.

Cheerio John

 

[clam1952]

Gmax is running out of the box so to speak in 64 bit, obviously as a 32 bit program.

I agree with you John 73 GB is pushing it a bit given the amount of space Trainz can consume, I got quite an improvement after I switched from Maxtor Sata II's to WD Caviar black Sata III's

The Raptor as said would be fine for the OS, I generally use an 80GB drive or partition for the OS and keep all programs and data on other drives.

The only thing that I don't like about the 550TI is it's only 192 bit whereas a 256 bit card would be better and some of them are using DDR3 not DDR5 which is the Nvidia spec for them, case of check the specs before getting one to make sure you are getting the full deal.

 

[narrowgauge]

A wealth of information here.

First, the Raptor. My TS12 and TRS2010 together are only 59GB and unlikely to get much bigger. If it came to the crunch, 2010 could go from the fast drive and remain on a slower one which would leave 28GB on a 74GB drive. That is probably what I would do anyway. Given a faster drive with nothing on it except TS12, would that give a speed boost? Future versions of Trainz would supplant TS12.

Memory is no problem, still not as expensive as it once was. This is the highest score Win gives it 71 out of 79. Business and gaming scores are 68, obviously one of the problems

I have a second 74GB Raptor, I could put that in as the C drive and at the same time format it for 64bit, this means I would have the original to fall back to if I have problems. The alternative would be to use a 60gb SSD for one of these positions. If I do get an SSD, where would be the best place to use it, bearing in mind that 60B is more than enough for one installation of TS12 even with an unlikely increase in downloaded content.

All this is going to need a massive reshuffle of data, my time is cheap so I think I should do this before I spend too much money.

To sum up:-
Win 64 bit on Raptor (or SSD)
TS12 on Raptor (or SSD)
Memory 2x4 or 4x2 - 2x2 if I can match my existing sticks

Later
New PS
New Video card

Thanks for helping me on this.

Peter

 

[Euphod]

http://www.videocardbenchmark.net/

Above is link to a site that lists the relative performance of all video cards. If you find the card you are considering on the list and then use the link, you can see the card's price to value rating as well. I find it quite handy.

New Egg currently has a sale on the GTX 560Ti, which is a top performing card or high value to price rating. The card is on sale through the 16th.

 

[johnwhelan]

http://www.videocardbenchmark.net/

Above is link to a site that lists the relative performance of all video cards. If you find the card you are considering on the list and then use the link, you can see the card's price to value rating as well. I find it quite handy.

New Egg currently has a sale on the GTX 560Ti, which is a top performing card or high value to price rating. The card is on sale through the 16th.

Unfortunately newegg isn't available in Aussy land.

Cheerio John

 

[johnwhelan]

I have a second 74GB Raptor, I could put that in as the C drive and at the same time format it for 64bit, this means I would have the original to fall back to if I have problems. The alternative would be to use a 60gb SSD for one of these positions. If I do get an SSD, where would be the best place to use it, bearing in mind that 60B is more than enough for one installation of TS12 even with an unlikely increase in downloaded content.

All this is going to need a massive reshuffle of data, my time is cheap so I think I should do this before I spend too much money.

To sum up:-
Win 64 bit on Raptor (or SSD)
TS12 on Raptor (or SSD)
Memory 2x4 or 4x2 - 2x2 if I can match my existing sticks

Later
New PS
New Video card

Thanks for helping me on this.

Peter

The SSD will simply load faster so if you are only interested in TS12 performance save it for TS12, otherwise putting the operating system on it is the normal thing to do. If you use the Windows 7 sleep feature then that will take up the same amount of space on your boot drive as you have memory.

Compressing an SSD drive if it has the operating system on it can give you a couple more gigs, however the tradeoff is cpu, OK if you have a quad not so good if you have a dual or single processor.

Cheerio John

 

[johnwhelan]

Running TS2010 from an SSD rather than a raptor got me about 1 frame per Sec better performance. 31 rather 30 fps, however scenery items did load more quickly on screen.

Cheerio John

 

[Euphod]

Unfortunately newegg isn't available in Aussy land.

Cheerio John

Ah...that IS unfortunate.

 

[narrowgauge]

A final report.

Despite having my original boot drive decide to go walkabout, I have now reached the following status.

Boot drive C: 120gb SSD
Data drive D: & E: 1 TB iin 2 partitions
TS12 only drive F: 60GB SSD
Trainz data drive G: The original.

OS is now WIN7 Ultimate 64 bit
I have updated the driver for my 9600 GTX.

The result is remarkable. Using the DHR as a testbed, fps have gone from 15-20 to 30-50. At no time does the fps drop below 30. Chase view on the DHR has always been a problem, as the train swings in and out of the gullies the entire scenery has has to be redrawn.

Currently, I am sitting in a passenger car and the fps swings from 41 to 50

Thankfully no need to upgrade to another video card and power supply, I was dreading the prospect of re-threading all the power cables through my Antec P60. It looks from this that if a video card is marginal, an SSD may be a much cheaper way out, of course, provided that the PC has sufficient SATA connections

Everybody, thanks for your help. It was invaluable.

Peter

 

[narrowgauge]

I should add that I had trainzoptions set to limit to 50fps, with that line removed I am now getting 60fps in places. Vastly different from the figure I got even with a Raptor as the dedicated drive.

Peter