Is AI stupid on purpose?

[philskene]

Agree. Totally.

Andy --

I agree. Absolutely.

If it was me I'd position an absolute signal before the switch leading into the single track section.

I'd place a track marker two squares before the signal. And another a good distance down after the exit from the single track section.

I'd give the driver a command to go via the first track mark and via the next.

I'd repeat with the other entrance to the single track section.

I also usually place a second signal two squares in advance of the first track mark. It helps bring the AI train up to the track mark at something approaching line speed.

Andy - as you say, over complication only leads to confusion amongst the AI. The simpler the better.

Phil
_____

EDIT:

OK, guys, try this demonstration:

https://skydrive.live.com/redir?resid=47BF7057B10D1B30!122&authkey=!ABowwNQWQjf2phw

Download the file from my SkyDrive and drag it into the main pane of Content Manager. You will see a route "AI test" and a session "AI test session".

In Driver you will be in a CHR locomotive. Just sit there and spectate.

The portals have been set to emit AI trainz at 2 minute intervals (so you will have to wait for 2 minutes before anything happens).

The AI will work through the single track section and then disappear into the other portal.

Tell me how it goes.

Phil
_____

Second edit:

I've mentioned this one before, but if anyone wants to play driving a locomotive while interacting with AI trainz, also download this:

https://skydrive.live.com/redir?resid=47BF7057B10D1B30!117&authkey=!AKzRgqRLa7z88po

The AI follows this route:

The concrete sleepered track is used by the AI. The wells will load and unload at the gantries after a wait of one minute.

 

[Bill69]

Hi dermmy,

I have been testing for a couple of hours now and niether train will run smoothly with no signals on the common strech of track. Both trains come to a full stop and just sit there for about a minute before one of them decides it can change the second junction, the one farthest away from it's location. If they arrive at the crossover at app the same time both have a red signal. Does make a difference with the junction link though, if there is a diverge signal on the common section of track, things then flow smoothly for one train but the other stops before changing the junction. Which train flows smoothly depends on the default direction of the switches. The control junction command would allow both trains to flow through without any holdups unless they arrived at the crossover at the same time.

Cheers,
Bill

 

[Kennilworth]

Hi

I think that Phil has illustrated another reason why the AI struggles and that is that we like to see things running and happening all the time. He has trains emitting from a portal at two minute intervals which is totally unprototypical but is good to watch. Here in the UK in the rush hour trains can be as little as four minutes apart but they are all going in the same direction and are not meeting any conflicting movements unless something has gone drastically wrong. However in Trainz, I think we run too many trains of all kinds much too frequently and expect the AI to sort it all out without a problem. I have found that if I give trains a reasonable time gap on prototypically signalled routes the AI will cope very well. However it isn't as much fun as watching trains run here there and everywhere all at the same time.

If we want the AI to solve problems that it may come up against then we require some form of conditional commands so that the train can be told what action to take if a certain condition occurs. I used the SCS2006 rule before the multiplayer versions of the sim broke it. When a slow freight train was approaching a passing loop it was quite possible to have it check to see if a faster train was coming up behind it. If there was it would turn itself into the loop and wait for the faster train to pass and then continue on its way. On the other hand if the track behind was clear it would just continue along the main line. This is the sort of basic decision making that would make the AI far more flexible and would give us better control over it.

In frogpipes example above, with the SCS2006 rule it would be possible to prevent a second train from requesting a path through the single line section until the first train has cleared it thus preventing any conflict.

Regards

Brian.

 

[celje]

Philskene said:'' The portals have been set to emit AI trainz at 2 minute intervals''

A couple of times in other threads i mentioned, that only accurate rule for emitting is QPM. All other rules and use of Portal's 'Produce' are working a short time, then problems are shown.

 

[frogpipe]

Here's a more accurate diagram:

Trains entering portal 1 reappear at portal 2
Trains entering portal 3 reappear at portal 4
Trains entering portal 6 reappear at portal 5
Trains entering portal 7 reappear at portal 7

2 trains run over this route.

Train 1 - PRR GG1 + 6x P70 coaches - 4 to 6 then 5 to 3
Train 2 - PRR E2 + 4xP54 coaches - 2 to 7 then 7 to 2

Since this is "background traffic" on tracks that the player can't legitimately get to, it doesn't have to be accurate. In real life these trains would have been able to take numerous routes.

The trouble comes when a train approaches signal A (he wants to go to portal 6) and signal B (he wants to go to portal 1) at the same time. They lock up the closest turnout preventing the other from proceeding.

Now I will admit that I've never waited to see if after several minutes it would clear its self or not.

The trains have simple commands:

E2's have

Drive To: portalname
Drive To: portalname
Repeat

GG1's have

Drive to Trackmark: Penn Station Track #
Wait 1 minute
Drive to: portalname
Drive to Trackmark: Penn Station Track #
Wait 1 minute
Drive to: portalname

The "Station" is a static object and not an actual interactive load/unload station. Trains driving to the Track # trackmark simply stop beside the platform simulating load/unload of passengers.

 

[celje]

deleted post

 

[Mick_Berg]

Hi Mick

The junction spacing at King's Cross isn't a problem if you use a path rule to set the path for the train.
Regards

Brian

Well Brian, I think you're proving the point. You're saying you can make KX work if you use the Path Rule, which is not part of the AI. So the AI alone can't make it work.

BTW I really appreciate this thread. Lots of good info and suggestions here on a subject that has previously been avoided, or just complained about by people like yours truly! Keep it coming!


Mick Berg.

 

[philskene]

frogpipe --

Is there some way you can share (SkyDrive, gDrive, RapidShare, ... ) that route and session?

Then those of us who want to can fiddle with signals, markers and AI commands for you.

Phil

 

[Bill69]

Sorry folks, can't help atm. I just had a massive crash on my main computer, will have to rebuild it right from windows up. Thank goodness for backups.

Cheers,
Bill69

 

[frogpipe]

frogpipe --

Is there some way you can share (SkyDrive, gDrive, RapidShare, ... ) that route and session?

Then those of us who want to can fiddle with signals, markers and AI commands for you.

Phil

Given your interest, it may well be hitting the DLS by week's end... The route anyway...

Meanwhile, I did try the link thing-a-mabob. I can't say for sure if it fixed the standoff, but I sure to like it for the 2 ends of my scale house gauntlet track.

 

[cascaderailroad]

I have been using Biddle's invisible speed boards, and other invisible signals, with much success.

I was wondering with a 10 mph speed zone, why does AI suddenly speed up to 23 mph, and run erratically, jumping and slowing everywhere between 2 mph and 23 mph.

If the speed board says 10 mph, and the speed zone displays 10 mph, why does AI drive at 8 mph, and lurch & jerk about ?

I have given up on 5 mph speed boards, as it is like watching molasses slide downhill in Antarctica, and the lurching & jerking, hesitating & unexplained speeding up, seems ludicrously rediculous.

Would setting the trigger radius to a smaller numeral, or setting the trigger radius to a larger numeral, make AI travel at a steady 10 mph ?

 

[cascaderailroad]

Is there a way (or a rule) to make an AI train travel at exactly at 5 mph, and no more, no less mph, (or 10 mph) ?

Speedboards seem to allow an AI train to go up to 18 mph, and then restrict it way down to 1 mph, repetively, over and over again.

Why doesn't a 5 mph speedboard lock the throttle position (watch an in the cab, view of you loco control stand, and you will see the throttle move back and forth, hunting up & down, repeatedly) ?

Why is this ?

 

[Dermmy]

I suspect that 5 mph is slower than the speed attained with a constant application of notch1, the lowest throttle setting. Therefore the train opens up then cuts back to coast a while, then notches up again. No other way to maintain a slow speed! How 'jerky' this process is will depend on the enginespec and the physics model.....

 

[Kennilworth]

Hi

Try the "SetDCCThrottle" driver command by atilabarut on the DLS. It's built in to TS12 but I don't know about TS2010.

Regards

Brian

 

[JohnnyC1]

Like I stated before, somethings wrong if you train will not drive to an industry with the loco shoving 6 cars to a facing point junction, set manually, to a one sided siding with one industry, the one AI was instructed to drive too. Nope, AI did a reverse move and drove a couple of miles before reversing and when decided he did not want to drive where first instructed, nope, drove right pass the industry siding. Is AI stupid, yes, because he/she is on crack! The only way I got AI to drive to the industry was to to place a TM before the junction.

John

 

[cascaderailroad]

I suspect my problem of speedboards being over-speeded in, then slowed down again, repetitively, is because an AI loco as it approaches every switch lever, it slows the train, and after the switch lever it speeds the train up, then slows down again., repetitively ... hunting for the next spline point circle ahead.

No matter if it is a 5 kph speedboard or a 55 kph speedboard, the loco throttle goes from 0, to 1, to 2, to 3, to 8, back down to 0, to 1, to 2, to 3, to 8 ... etc ... etc ...

Another aspect is when running 4 locos MU together in a yard, the braking and speeding, is radicly, rediculous, jerking about.

As when a single loco runs through a yard throat it behaves just a tab better, but still over-speeds the speedboard, then brakes repetitivly.

Also when running a mile long train with 4 locos on the head end, and 2 more shoving on the rear, amplifies the jerking, braking, and over-speeding.

I have roughly found that the Trainz, metric, and imperial, speedboards equivilents are:

5 kph speedboard = Actual speed drives at 3 mph = Stalls
7 kph speedboard = Actual speed drives at 4 mph = Varies from 1, 2, 3, 4, 6 mph
5 mph speedboard = Actual speed drives at 5 mph = Varies from 1, 2, 3, 5 ,19 mph
10 kph speedboard = Actual speed drives at 6 mph = Varies from 1, 2, 4, 6, 22 mph
15 kph speedboard = Actual speed drives at 9 mph = Varies from 2, 6, 7, 9, 24 mph
10 mph speedboard = Actual speed drives at 10 mph = Varies from 6, 8, 10, 22 mph
15 mph speedboard = Actual speed drives at _ mph = Varies from _, _, _, _ mph
20 kph speedboard= Actual speed drives at 12 mph = from 3, 11, 12, 25 mph

JohhnyC1:
SometimesTrainz can not see a far away trackmark, very far ahead, as it only see's a certain number of spline points ahead ... I Tink ?

AI is very near sighted (can not see far).

 

[JohnnyC1]

The train is one spline point away from the industry, the junction spline & industry spline. Nearsighted, blind is more like it!

John

 

[cascaderailroad]

AI follows trackmarkers, like pigeons following a trail of bread crumbs, and sometimes will not follow to the end of a dead end track. BNSF50 Invisatrack can be added on to the tail end of a dead end track, so as to lengthen it, make a loop, or install a fake turnout that will fool Trainz into believing the track goes farther on.
------------------------------------

I have found my 2 favorite speedboards:

Sign Speed RHS 10K QR (which is in kph, metric), and makes a train go the equivilent of 6 mph.
(There also is a 7 kph version that makes a train go the equivilent of 4 mph).

I also use 005 Invisible Speedboard by Biddle, as well as his 010 Invisible Speedboard (which are Imperial), and make a train go an actual 5 mph.

I use invisible speedboards in yards, as they would not be there on the prototype, as signals and speedboards are rare at every turnout ... and you can make any speedboard invisible by adding the line: -surveyor only, to the speedboards config file.

 

[H222]

Some things the AI do are odd, however most errors with the AI stem from a signalling problem or trackwork may not be to their liking. The AI is not stupid, it doesn't think, it just does exactly as it's told

Jamie

 

[geoffc]

Here is a question. I have been experimenting on the West Side Sampler, and I set up the following:

There are no signals or track marks.

Train 1 leaves from Portal High Camps
Train 2 leaves from Portal Town Side

The of length that they can fit into the couple of sidings that are on the line.

Eventually Train 1 get to the Switch back siding and waits because train 2 has already passed the next siding. After many minutes Train 2 gets close to the only turnout between the 2 sidings and the for some reason Train one decides that it now has access to the line and decides to proceed. Train 2 stops before the junction and waits. Eventually they meet and we have a deadlock situation.

Suggestions?

Thanks,
Geoffrey