I am considering buying a new desktop with Windows 8 that has the new Intel HD integrated graphics. If I buy this new computer I will also probably be upgrading to Trainz 12. How well does the game work with Intel HD, if at all? So far I've only ever had computers with Nvidia Geforce cards.
Intel HD graphics questions
- Thread starter PARAILFAN
- Start date
Less then great.
Intel Graphics (HD or not) are the standard graphics that come on your motherboard. While it is possible to run Trainz on a system with integrated graphics, your going to be running it on the lowest settings & looking for low-detail stuff to use. I would look into investing into even the most basics of dedicated graphics cards.
peter
Intel Graphics (HD or not) are the standard graphics that come on your motherboard. While it is possible to run Trainz on a system with integrated graphics, your going to be running it on the lowest settings & looking for low-detail stuff to use. I would look into investing into even the most basics of dedicated graphics cards.
peter
I am running Trainz 12 SP1+HF3 under Windows 8 64-bit on an i7 quad core laptop that has integrated Intel HD 3000 graphics ... and I will give you my experience ...
First off, DirectX performance is quite a bit better than OpenGL ...
Using DirectX ... I can typically set my settings to around Normal and get relatively decent framerates (but it does depend to how detailed the route is ... in general, I find setting the fog settings a bit higher will help ... but there are also some highly detailed routes where I will need to lower other settings all the way to the lowest settings.
The negative about DirectX with the Intel HD 3000 graphics is that there are artifacts that are visible (basically black pixels that seem to be primarily at the borders of ground textures ... primarily where there is a change in direction of the ground (up or down a slope, around a bend, etc).
Using OpenGL ... the Artifacts are not present like DirectX ... but the performance is noticeably worse ... at no point can I go past the lowest settings ... even to the point where I have changed the distance slider to around 3500 vs the maximum of 5000 to get reasonable performance with OpenGL. Also, unfortunately with the latest drivers from Intel there seems to be a change in the OpenGL drivers in that textures seem to be a lot darker based on LOD, the farther away you get, the darker it gets (and even at the nearest it's still too dark) ... and it's to a point that OpenGL is really not usable ... and in order to be able to use OpenGL I have to go all the way back to the 9.17.10.2828 version (current version is 9.17.10.3223).
Also, the DirectX artifacts are present in every driver version that I have tried ... it seems to be an Anti-Aliasing issue in that I have tried turning off the Anti-Aliasing through command line options and the artifacts disappear (but the effect of not having anti-aliasing on is even worse). And there is NO WAY to set Anti-Aliasing directly in the driver settings (like you can with NVIDIA or AMD graphics adapters).
The real unfortunate part of this is Trainz seems to be the only game that has either of these issues ... I have other 3D games/simulators like Euro Truck Simulator 2, Ship Simulator Extremes and others (some use DirectX, some use OpenGL, some allow me to choose like Trainz) that work without either of these problems and the Intel HD 3000 graphics are totally acceptable with the other games/simulators.
FYI, my signature has my DESKTOP setup which also has Windows 8 Pro 64-bit and the NVIDIA card has neither of the issues listed that I have with Intel HD 3000 graphics (and at one time, I had an AMD adapter in the same computer that didn't have the issues either).
So, in conclusion; in my experience, the Intel HD 3000 graphics do have some issues that don't seem to be just related to performance.
Hope that helps.
---- Jeff
First off, DirectX performance is quite a bit better than OpenGL ...
Using DirectX ... I can typically set my settings to around Normal and get relatively decent framerates (but it does depend to how detailed the route is ... in general, I find setting the fog settings a bit higher will help ... but there are also some highly detailed routes where I will need to lower other settings all the way to the lowest settings.
The negative about DirectX with the Intel HD 3000 graphics is that there are artifacts that are visible (basically black pixels that seem to be primarily at the borders of ground textures ... primarily where there is a change in direction of the ground (up or down a slope, around a bend, etc).
Using OpenGL ... the Artifacts are not present like DirectX ... but the performance is noticeably worse ... at no point can I go past the lowest settings ... even to the point where I have changed the distance slider to around 3500 vs the maximum of 5000 to get reasonable performance with OpenGL. Also, unfortunately with the latest drivers from Intel there seems to be a change in the OpenGL drivers in that textures seem to be a lot darker based on LOD, the farther away you get, the darker it gets (and even at the nearest it's still too dark) ... and it's to a point that OpenGL is really not usable ... and in order to be able to use OpenGL I have to go all the way back to the 9.17.10.2828 version (current version is 9.17.10.3223).
Also, the DirectX artifacts are present in every driver version that I have tried ... it seems to be an Anti-Aliasing issue in that I have tried turning off the Anti-Aliasing through command line options and the artifacts disappear (but the effect of not having anti-aliasing on is even worse). And there is NO WAY to set Anti-Aliasing directly in the driver settings (like you can with NVIDIA or AMD graphics adapters).
The real unfortunate part of this is Trainz seems to be the only game that has either of these issues ... I have other 3D games/simulators like Euro Truck Simulator 2, Ship Simulator Extremes and others (some use DirectX, some use OpenGL, some allow me to choose like Trainz) that work without either of these problems and the Intel HD 3000 graphics are totally acceptable with the other games/simulators.
FYI, my signature has my DESKTOP setup which also has Windows 8 Pro 64-bit and the NVIDIA card has neither of the issues listed that I have with Intel HD 3000 graphics (and at one time, I had an AMD adapter in the same computer that didn't have the issues either).
So, in conclusion; in my experience, the Intel HD 3000 graphics do have some issues that don't seem to be just related to performance.
Hope that helps.
---- Jeff
cascaderailroad
New member
The main thing when buying a PC is to check the CPU speed, expressed in GHz ... 3.4GHz being very high end ... and anything less than 2.0GHz is really, really, low end.
Some Alienware PC's have 4.2GHz CPU speed (but cost @ $5000) lol
Turbo boost speed is not relivant to Trainz nor gaming, as turbo boost is for short sporadic bursts of speed for general computing ... not for extended periods of gaming.
So the turbo boost speed of 2.7GHz is a deceptive advertising spec, as the PC may only have 2.0GHz CPU raw speed.
A 1Gb to 2Gb video card is also important
If you are buying a desktop, you only need 4Gb RAM (maximum), a 16Gb RAM PC is no better, as Trainz only uses 4Gb RAM (I would recommend 6Gb RAM plus, though).
A 1Tb Hard Drive is fantastic, but you really don't absolutely need a 1Tb HD
A Power supply should be in excess of a teeny 300Watt Light On power supply ... you can replace a 300Watt PS with a higher wattage PS, (for @ $80, plus a technicians professional install for another $80) then you can install a high end video card (for @ $80 to $250).
My 3Gb RAM desktop has a 300Watt PS, so I could only put in GT430 video card
I have read that some guys take an old XP PC and turn it into a super computer for a couple hundred bucks.
There are Big Box store Gaming desktops @ $800 (some are cheaper online)
Some Alienware PC's have 4.2GHz CPU speed (but cost @ $5000) lol
Turbo boost speed is not relivant to Trainz nor gaming, as turbo boost is for short sporadic bursts of speed for general computing ... not for extended periods of gaming.
So the turbo boost speed of 2.7GHz is a deceptive advertising spec, as the PC may only have 2.0GHz CPU raw speed.
A 1Gb to 2Gb video card is also important
If you are buying a desktop, you only need 4Gb RAM (maximum), a 16Gb RAM PC is no better, as Trainz only uses 4Gb RAM (I would recommend 6Gb RAM plus, though).
A 1Tb Hard Drive is fantastic, but you really don't absolutely need a 1Tb HD
A Power supply should be in excess of a teeny 300Watt Light On power supply ... you can replace a 300Watt PS with a higher wattage PS, (for @ $80, plus a technicians professional install for another $80) then you can install a high end video card (for @ $80 to $250).
My 3Gb RAM desktop has a 300Watt PS, so I could only put in GT430 video card
I have read that some guys take an old XP PC and turn it into a super computer for a couple hundred bucks.
There are Big Box store Gaming desktops @ $800 (some are cheaper online)
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Dinorius_Redundicus
kuid 68213
Interested in this Intel HD graphics too, because I'm confused. My Alienware laptop says it has Intel HD graphics and an NVidia GT 765M graphics card. Can a PC have both? And if so, which one is actually processing my graphics? How can I tell?
shaneturner12
Tutorial Creator
If yours has both, then it's a special case, as there's normally software installed that allows switching between the two.
Shane
Shane
My new laptop - Dell Inspiron 17R SE 7720 - has Intel graphics and an Nvidia GT 650m GPU and normally they are selected automatically but also if you right click on a programme in the Start Menu you can select the GPU manually.
Also if you go to the Nvidia Control Panel you can specify which programmes you always want to use the GPU.
If you haven't already got it you should download "Geforce Experience" from the Nvidia website to keep your drivers up to date.
"A 1Tb Hard Drive is fantastic, but you really don't absolutely need a 1Tb HD "
If its storage you are after that's true but a 1TB HDD will only have a rotational speed of 5400RPM which makes it sluggish compared to a smaller drive with a 7200 RPM speed.
Ideally you need an SSD of about 120GB for the OS and some core software then a 7200RPM drive for everything else.
LNERlover5
Average Grad
@Cascaderailroad: Your ideals of pure clock speed are somewhat misleading. A CPU's performance cannot be measured on clock speed alone, architecture and core design are also relevant. Really such a statement is quite vague as an AMD CPU will not match an Intel CPU clock for clock within the current generation. Also in regards to turbo boost. A CPU is designed and tested at a specific limit, then backed off to increase reliability along with speed binning purposes. Any CPU with turbo boost has most likely been designed with even higher clock speeds in mind and CAN handle them for elongated periods. Hence why my FX 6300 is running at 4.0GHz with a basic aftermarket cooler on all 6 cores constantly with zero issues regarding stability or temperatures.
johnwhelan
Well-known member
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/gaming-graphics-card-review,3107-7.html
check the list and you'll see the high end Intel graphics are well down the list but not at the base. So not ideal but not as bad as the old integrated graphics used to be.
Cheerio John
check the list and you'll see the high end Intel graphics are well down the list but not at the base. So not ideal but not as bad as the old integrated graphics used to be.
Cheerio John
cascaderailroad
New member
I am always up to being informed, and re-educated, on what lower end, newer PC's can handle Trainz ... I am no expert on PC's, but what vague specs a Big Box store usually gives you, ie: 16Gb RAM, 1Tb HD, Turbo Boost 2.7 is sometimes very misleading, as most low end PC's have little or no dedicated graphics memory, and are actually "Chip" cookers when gaming.
And I've seen this happen before too with some machines people have asked me to repair. What is really appalling about these machines is the low quality components used. The components may be name brand, but the machines are so poorly configured, lack any expansion, or worse cooling, that they are useless. What is really bad is the big box stores sell these machines to unknowing customers who think they have a super game-capable machine when it is not. The poor people are taken for ride to the bank every time it seems.
You mentioned something about not needing anything above 4GB of RAM. With today's operating systems such as Windows 7 and up, 8 GB is considered the "norm" and for the most part most machines run quite well with 8GB. There's enough room for the operating system to get out of the way and enough room for the applications to load and run nicely. I happen to have 16GB and this definitely is helpful especially when running programs such as TransDEM. The program its self doesn't use all the RAM, but this gives even more space for the operating system to load up file handles and manipulate data because there is enough memory to load up multiple 32-bit programs without stomping on each other. The thing is with these new operating systems is the 32-bit applications are no longer run natively. That is, they are 32-bit applications that are run through an emulated environment on a 64-bit operating system. The underlying 64-bit operating system has the native calls built in to run the 32-bit code, but sets up the 32-bit applications in their own memory space. The more memory you have, the more 32-bit applications you can run without a performance hit.
With the 16GB of RAM, I can have TransDEM, Content Manager, a browser with the forums open and even be viewing videos on YouTube without any performance drop. I've done that with Trainz too. I run TS12 in a window and have the forums running and other programs as well at the same time with not-so-shabby performance. Closing the other programs does help Trainz because of the intensive I/O processes it runs as that gets in the way and causes the other applications to take a performance hit.
Perhaps some day when there is no such thing as 32-bit programs and we'll only have 64-bit and use nearly all the memory available.
John
Dinorius_Redundicus
kuid 68213
Thanks for the info. Can I assume the automatic selection mechanism will choose the best graphics processor (which should always be the stand-alone graphics card shouldn't it)? If so, I need not do any tweaking.
Thanks for all your replies to this so far. Lots of very good points made. On Intel's website they really brag up their HD graphics like they are something special. But if they are really so special, you'd think they would list more compatible games. There doesn't seem to be many. Like someone said above, I'm currently running one of those rebuilt desktops from Ebay. 500 GB hard drive, Intel Celeron D 3.33 Ghz CPU but just 2 GB of RAM. It's mostly capable as far as Trainz 2009 and 2010 goes but I know it won't be able to handle Trainz 12. I can run like 4-5 programs at once including Trainz and content manager with not many slowdowns. That's with Trainz in Surveyor mode. I would not attempt that in Driver mode or I'd run into problems fast. The thing that bogs me down sometimes is that 2GB of RAM. 4GB would be just great, and also a 1TB hard drive might spin slower but it would be able to hold so much more Trainz content. Mine is filling up fast. Also has anyone tried running Trainz off an external drive? I think after reading all of this I will be buying a dedicated gaming computer and not from a big box store. There are many to choose from on Ebay. It won't be that much more than an everyday desktop and will be worth it.
Yes I think that's a fair assumption. After posting I clicked a few programmes and found that only the ones which were likely to need the GPU had the option to use the GPU. I don't know the specifics of your machine but on mine I can tell straight away if it is using the GPU because it kicks a fair bit of heat out of the exhaust!
PARAILFAN said "On Intel's website they really brag up their HD graphics like they are something special."
They are definitely better than no graphics and will make watching movies etc a whole lot better, but Train is very demanding and for that you need a proper GPU. Its worth searching ebay for "Gaming Laptop" but if you ever think of buying one make sure you search for reviews of it then search for "(laptop model) problem" so you can see any problems people typically have. Also RAM is cheap now especially if it is used, so ideally you want a machine with a capacity of 8GB.
LNERlover5
Average Grad
If only RAM was as cheap as it was roughly a year ago... Back when I could get a Corsair Vengeance 8GB kit for £30...
johnwhelan
Well-known member
If it runs TS2010 then it will run TS12, generally speaking TS12 gives slightly better frame rates with the same content and settings. They just increased the recommended specs to compensate for some of the more detailed assets we're seeing in TS12.
Cheerio John
norfolksouthern37
what's a normal map?
This all depends on your specific system. I have owned several Alienware laptops over the years. they always had different ways of activating the integrated gpu. one of my old systems had an actual switch on the outside, but since then it has been fn+f7 (the key will say I/D GFX).
this is usually the case, but on battery power the intel will be chosen.
Dinorius_Redundicus
kuid 68213
Ah, so that's what the Fn + F7 message means. Now that I know what it's all about, I'm happy to leave it on 'auto' using the NVidia Control Panel. I'm sure the Aliens know best.