How to protect a single track line with signals

[osamarin]

Hello, all!

I have two stations S1 and S2 and a single-track line between them. This line is long enough. I want two trains not to enter the same track from these stations at the same time. I use BR/QR signals (right handle).

The problem is that if both trainz start moving at the same time (Train1 is navigating to the trackmark M2 and Train2 is navigating to M1), they switch junctions J1 and J2, and both signals S1o1 and S2o2 are green so both trains enter the same track. Only if Train1 starts before Train2 and passes the junction J1, the signal S2o2 will become red and Train2 will not enter.

Please tell me what is wrong in my route with signals placement.

 

[Bill69]

Hi osamarin,

Remove signals s2-1 and s1-2. That way when the points change to allow train1 to go to m2 then s2-02 and s2-01 will stay red. In situations like that you must only have signals protecting the entry pionts to the single line, no intermediate signals.

Cheers,
Bill69

 

[Muliebuck]

I agree with Bill69, sadly, the way (in my humble understanding) of how the AI works with signalling, is you can *not* do prototypical signalling (example being you bidirectional single line working), and expect the AI to behave. This is unfortunate, but I believe (and am willing to admit I may be wrong!), that there is a 'rule' you can add to the driver setup, that will set any / all 'opposing' signals to stop, until you (or the AI) reaches a trigger on the line, that will fire off a script to set the signals back to automatic.

 

[Dermmy]

I agree with Bill, the two centre signals gotta go, but depending on traffic density I would also give a big think to removing S11 and S21 as well. The arrangement is prototypically correct, but as you have it it is possible to find a three-way Mexican stand-off with trains facing S11, S1o1 and S1o2 at the same time, same at the other end. If there are only ever two trains on the line though it should work with just Bill's suggestion....

Andy

 

[osamarin]

Thanks for your answers.

I forgot to tell in the starting post that my session worked perfectly in trainz 2006: only one signal among s2o2 and s1o2 was green and another was red. But it stopped working in trainz 2009. Seems the signal behavior has been changed between 2006 and 2009. I need a solution would work in 2009.

Hi osamarin,

Remove signals s2-1 and s1-2. That way when the points change to allow train1 to go to m2 then s2-02 and s2-01 will stay red. In situations like that you must only have signals protecting the entry pionts to the single line, no intermediate signals.

Cheers,
Bill69

If I remove signals s2-1 and s1-2 then it works neither in Trainz 2006 nor Trains 2009: s2o2 and s1o2 are not red. They are yellow in both versions of Trainz and two trains enter the same track. I have already tried it. These signals have been added to the route
1. For making it to work in trains 2006 (without them - see above).
2. Because the traffic is high, a distance between stations is long, and I want the next train would enter the line from the same stations after the first reached s2-1/s1-2. Unfortunately it does not work in Trains 2006, but works in Trains 2009.

 

[osamarin]

I agree with Bill, the two centre signals gotta go, but depending on traffic density I would also give a big think to removing S11 and S21 as well. The arrangement is prototypically correct,

Andy

Thank you for your suggestion. If I remove S1i, S2i as well as S1-2 and S2-1, it works. The rest signals protect the line. But another problem appears: S1o2 (or S2o2) are yellow and the train passes the line too slow, with a half speed.

 

[Mouse84]

Put a signal to the left of M1 and to the right of M2.

 

[Bill69]

Thank you for your suggestion. If I remove S1i, S2i as well as S1-2 and S2-1, it works. The rest signals protect the line. But another problem appears: S1o2 (or S2o2) are yellow and the train passes the line too slow, with a half speed.

Set your single line exit points to default to the way you want the exiting train to go. If the single line exit points are set to a clear line the train should travel at or about the speed limit.

Cheers,
Bill69

 

[osamarin]

Set your single line exit points to default to the way you want the exiting train to go. If the single line exit points are set to a clear line the train should travel at or about the speed limit.

Cheers,
Bill69

I'll try it this evening.

But the line is too long (ex 10 km). How to make the next train from the same station to enter the line without waiting the first train pass the whole line? I have been using intermediate signals S1-2 and S2-1 for this purpose (works in trains 2009 only). Is there another way to achieve the same result?

 

[Bill69]

Hi osamarin,

I think what you are trying to do might be easier with commands rather than relying on signals. There are lots of commands available on the DLS which should help. I suggest you look at, control Junction kuid 131986:180153 with free junction kuid 131986:180154 or wait for trigger kuid 57344:80001 or trigger multiple signals kuid 116387:26. If you need more help I will try to make up a demo track to show the use of these.

Cheers,
Bill69

 

[PGibbons]

Single Line Running

Check out any one of my Hay Branch routes for some single line signal configurations - there are some passing loops and various other yards etc.

With AI you have to place signals to stop any train from either direction from entering the single track section while another train is using that section.
I usually put no signals in the single track sections at all and use a combination of normal and invisible signals to control entry/exit.
While this may not be true to life it does work with AI.
I use 'invisible signals' to ensure the long single track parts face into a 'green' so as to prevent running the section at half speed (facing a yellow ).

It also helps to experiment with signals on a one board test route to get it right.

Hope this helps...
PG

 

[osamarin]

Hi osamarin,

I think what you are trying to do might be easier with commands rather than relying on signals. There are lots of commands available on the DLS which should help. I suggest you look at, control Junction kuid 131986:180153 with free junction kuid 131986:180154 or wait for trigger kuid 57344:80001 or trigger multiple signals kuid 116387:26. If you need more help I will try to make up a demo track to show the use of these.

Cheers,
Bill69

Thanks. But if I have a large route with multiple stations, programming each span with triggers, junctions and signals is too complex. I hoped the signal system should help me to avoid it. And the signals helped me in 2006, but not in 2009.

 

[llebrez]

I get around this by adding a passing siding in or near the middle of the line. There you put yellow markers so each direction enters on his assigned track, and it has the signal just before the point. Is nice to see both trains crossing.. You get the idea, yes?

 

[osamarin]

I usually put no signals in the single track sections at all and use a combination of normal and invisible signals to control entry/exit.
While this may not be true to life it does work with AI.
I use 'invisible signals' to ensure the long single track parts face into a 'green' so as to prevent running the section at half speed (facing a yellow ).

Where should I put invisible signals in the route above?

 

[osamarin]

I get around this by adding a passing siding in or near the middle of the line. There you put yellow markers so each direction enters on his assigned track, and it has the signal just before the point. Is nice to see both trains crossing.. You get the idea, yes?

Have I understood your idea correctly that you advice not to have very long single track spans and to protect short spans with only exiting signals (like S1o1, S1o2, S2o1, S2o2) without any other signals?

 

[Dermmy]

Short single track sections help because there is no practical way to protect AI trains in both directions on a single line tack. Bi-directional single track under AI control must be signal-free. Passing loops should only be signalled on the 'departure' side - do not have signals protecting the facing junction (S11 and S21 etc).

To avoid long runs under 'caution' signals for the train approaching 'M1' I would place an invisible signal between M1 and the end-of-track. Same for M2. These invisible signals serve two purposes, they force S1o1 and S2o2 to show green and they slows trains to half speed before they encounter the end of the track...

Andy

 

[Paddington]

SINGLE TRACK SIGNALLING/CONTROLS

If I may add my two penny worth to this thread, I have used the "WaitforJunction Permit" and "ReleaseJunction" DriverCommands (kuid 1311986:210011 I think) for my Canadian layout successfully. This would meet your single line operational requirements.

As an added bonus, when 2 trains are proceeding in the same direction and you have intermediate signals in place, these rules appear to allow both trains to proceed safely. Opposing trains simply wait for the release of the "token" or "key" as it is titled.

 

[ldowns]

A good rule of thumb in Trainz (not original with me): Never put a signal somewhere where you don't want a train to stop. As repeatedly mentioned above, not prototypical, but the Trainz signaling system is a long way from that. I do have some stretches on a large TS2006 layout where I've placed intermediate signals on a single track stretch, and while usually they work, I do end up with stalemated locos facing each other from time to time.

--Lamont

 

[vosloo]

I agreewith IIebrez. I put passing tracks every two km's on my route and have no problems with th AI.