How to control train's speed?

[Approach_Medium]

Hi;
I've been spending most of my time with TS2009 (now, SP2) building my route, but now have become interested in driving trainz as well.
I was wondering whether there are any good tutorials on how to drive a train.
I know how to start, stop and all of that, but I would like to understand more about handling a long, heavy train at various grades.

I have found that it is often necessary to "play" with the throttle and brakes to keep the speed more or less constant.
But when and how much brake to apply, and when, and how much throttle to apply, then combining the two to control speed seems to be something that needs to be learned by experience.

For example: I find that I don't just cut the throttle to 0 if I want to slow down. Doing that, and then applying brakes usually results in the train slowing too much.
But keeping the throttle at 1 and applying some brake, then releasing, re-applying, etc has better results.

This is on pretty much level +/- 0.5% grade. I realize that if I'm coming down a mountain pass, I won't be using any throttle at all.

So, where can I find the best place to learn all of this?
TS2009 didn't come with a manual (I bought it via DL), and I have been using TS2006 manual, but there isn't really anything very detailed there.

Thanks

FW

 

[mjolnir]

An experienced hoghead (term used for driver / engineer on some railroads) will try as much as possible to keep the slack on a train stretched at all times, even when stopping. Because of that, the procedure for stopping a train is to make a "service reduction" in the brake pipe pressure, before touching the throttle. A service reduction is a quick application of the brakes, resulting in a reduction in brake pipe pressure of about 6 pounds, and has the effect of setting the brakes on the end of the train, which act as an anchor. This is followed by a reduction in throttle, but not to zero, or even 1. but to about half of the level that it is at. This is followed by another quick application of the brakes, to set up more brakes at the end of the train, and a throttle reduction, repeated as necessary. The throttle is set to zero, and the brakes are set up at the point where the stop is desired.

Depending upon the locomotive, there is probably a second brake, too, the "independent" brake. This brake is not used in stopping a train, unless the the engine is being used to switch cars, or the train is very short, no air brakes are being used, and operation is at a slow speed.

Start with a single locomotive, and just a few (three or four cars), and try to become facile with that; then try a larger number of cars (10), and then 25, and then 50.

ns

 

[Approach_Medium]

Thanks much. Good explanation.
In TS, I was under the impression that if the brake is given a quick touch, the pressure will drop, but then return to normal (released).
Is this possibly the purpose of the "initial" brake position?

I agree with you 100% in that I need to play around with a simple train, before trying to control 3000 tons.

FW

 

[mjolnir]

Yes. The thing an experienced hoghead fears most is the slack running in and out as the train goes up and down grades. The function of the initial brake application serves to keep the train tight, so the slack does not run in when the full application is made. The initial application gives a partial application of the brakes at the end of the train, which holds the train stretched as a full service application is made. On the full service applications, the brakes set up from the front of the train, and the engineer will keep the throttle up, or perhaps in some cases, even increase it, as the brakes are setting, to keep the slack stretched. If he needs the slack bunched later to start the train, he can always back the engine up a few feet.

ns

 

[Approach_Medium]

I think I can relate to all of that. I run (by foot) on a track (running type, not train) which parallels CSX's River Line in New Jersey, and sometimes when the trains stop or start, there is a lot of noise, but other times there is not, and the train stops or starts smoothly.
I guess that is due to the experience (or lack thereof) of the engineer.

There have been times when the brakes on the whole train are making so much noise that people are looking and wondering why the terrible noise.
It seems that for some reason, this particular engineer was applying too much brake as he was stopping. The train was moving about 1mph for so long, I was thinking that he was waiting for a clear signal up ahead, but then he stopped, and sat a while before the train he was waiting for came by.

I was in White River Jct Vermont a couple years back, just after the Amtrak Vermonter went south out of the station, a local freight comes in and this guy is pushing and pulling the train so hard that I'm thinking he's going to break a coupler, or worse.
It seemed he was in a bad mood <g>. That was small time RR Vermont Central.
I thought I could probably jump in the cab and do a better job with the train<g>

It will be another fun thing to do with Trainz to practice driving. Only problem is that apparently, some of the locos don't have the physics correct.
I've got the DDA40X units (various roads) pulling a 3000 ton train down a 0.5% grade.
Running two of those units; For some reason, the wheels always start slipping when I move the throttle to first notch with no brake applied.
I have to pull the throttle back to 0, then start up again. Sometimes more than two efforts are required to get the train moving without wheel slip.
Seems odd for this to happen on a down-grade, doesn't it?

Whe I lash up three of the CSX C30-7's (Norfolksouthern37) I bought from Jointed Rail, with the same train, I get no wheel slip at all.
I would think that two DDA40X's at 6Khp each would do at least as well as three of the C30-7's.

Anyway; Thanks for the informative and interesting replies.

FW

 

[backyard]

Practice...

I get wheelslip in notch one sometimes...

That's where patience comes to play...nothing is going to happen fast.

But experience causes patience.

If wheelslip happens, start over.

You can use the independent brake to hold the train still & apply throttle, gradually releasing the brake.

EMD AC locomotives require this, up to & including notch 6, but you should be able to move forward at about notch 4. A certain condition of backing off the throttle causes a violent jerk of the locomotive that can throw you out of the seat in say a SD80 or SD70MAC.

A good route to run is Crawford Hill, on the Download Station by 3801.

BNSF runs 140 car 20,000 ton trains over a 1.72% grade here with 8 SD locomotives, two AC units on the front, one AC on the rear, maybe two AC units in the middle...only three or four on the rear are DC locomotives.

You also can use dynamic braking to drop down off this grade loaded to get experience. The route is only 17 miles, so it's a great place to practice, especially with Guido's 5-bay rapid discharge hoppers.

Knowing your route is really important! Let the AI Driver take you over a route several times just to get familiar with the terrain.

 

[mjolnir]

It will be another fun thing to do with Trainz to practice driving. Only problem is that apparently, some of the locos don't have the physics correct.
I've got the DDA40X units (various roads) pulling a 3000 ton train down a 0.5% grade.
Running two of those units; For some reason, the wheels always start slipping when I move the throttle to first notch with no brake applied. ...<snippage>... Whe I lash up three of the CSX C30-7's (Norfolksouthern37) I bought from Jointed Rail, with the same train, I get no wheel slip at all.

That can happen on a real railroad, too, Lots of things can cause wheel slip, including overpower. I don't know if the DDA40X's included in TRS include it, but in the real world, if an engineer experienced wheel slip he'd apply a bit of sand. This puts a small quantity of sand on the rail just ahead of the bogey, and it accomplishes the same thing as putting sand under one's tires when there is ice on the road.

As far as the C30-7's not slipping when the DDA40X's do, one thing to keep in mind is that one of the things that can cause slipping is over-powering. You've got 12000 hp in the pair of DDA40X's while you have 9000 in the three C30-7s'. Keep in mind, too, that the C30-7 is a couple of generations newer than the DDA40X, and by the time the C30-7 was produced there is a chance that it had wheel slip detection, and automatic adjustment.

ns

 

[john259]

Experts please correct me if necessary but I believe that another vital aspect of driving real trains with electric traction motors is to ensure that they are never stationary when a current is applied, otherwise a motor coil will quickly burn out. AFAIK no locos in Trainz simulate this.

John

 

[Approach_Medium]

Experts please correct me if necessary but I believe that another vital aspect of driving real trains with electric traction motors is to ensure that they are never stationary when a current is applied, otherwise a motor coil will quickly burn out. AFAIK no locos in Trainz simulate this.

John

How would you start a stopped train then?

FW

 

[Approach_Medium]

That can happen on a real railroad, too, Lots of things can cause wheel slip, including overpower. I don't know if the DDA40X's included in TRS include it, but in the real world, if an engineer experienced wheel slip he'd apply a bit of sand. This puts a small quantity of sand on the rail just ahead of the bogey, and it accomplishes the same thing as putting sand under one's tires when there is ice on the road.

As far as the C30-7's not slipping when the DDA40X's do, one thing to keep in mind is that one of the things that can cause slipping is over-powering. You've got 12000 hp in the pair of DDA40X's while you have 9000 in the three C30-7s'. Keep in mind, too, that the C30-7 is a couple of generations newer than the DDA40X, and by the time the C30-7 was produced there is a chance that it had wheel slip detection, and automatic adjustment.

ns

That thought did occur to me. The DDA40X units have too much torque, so the wheels will break free of the friction that holds them to the rail.
I have a lot to learn<g>

FW

 

[john259]

How would you start a stopped train then?

FW

I believe you put in enough power to ensure it moves, then reduce the power as soon as it does. But my knowledge is only based on reading a few articles on the subject and watching a few Blackpool tram drivers (!) so if anyone knows better please correct me.

John

 

[Approach_Medium]

I believe you put in enough power to ensure it moves, then reduce the power as soon as it does. But my knowledge is only based on reading a few articles on the subject and watching a few Blackpool tram drivers (!) so if anyone knows better please correct me.

John

OK. That sounds reasonable. That is pretty much what I had to do with the DDA40X locos pulling the 3000 t train DOWN grade (0.5%) to avoid wheelslip.

I have been playing with a single DDA40X loco and a handfull of cars. No problems with wheelslip now<g>.
Pulling, stopping on level to +/- 0.5% just practice.
I like TS physics now that I am beginning to understand them.
When I cut the throttle to 0 then start applying brakes, and let the train basically roll to a stop, I hear the cars piling into one another. Then, when I start, I hear them separating again.
But when I keep throttle at 1 or 2 while applying brakes, then let the train come to a complete stop with throttle at 1, there is no crashing on stop.
Then, I found if I release the brakes while the train is stopped, it slides backwards and I hear the cars bumping again. Then, when I start the train, I hear the slack taking up once again.

So I now understand the need to keep the train stretched.
As I said in my previous post, I have witnessed trains whos drivers apparently are not so experienced, or don't care that cause the train to crash and bang all over the place.
That Vermont Central in White River Jct was the worst I have ever seen.

I am now understanding how good a sim TS2009 really is, with all the prototypical physics.

One note about keyboard control of the cab.
If left to default, you cannot move the brake handle back just a notch or two. Press the Q key and it gives a full release, unless you press Z to lap.
I re-mapped a couple of unused keys to Train_Cabin_Brake_up and _down so that at least I can go from application back to initial without release. It still will not let me go back just one or two notches though.
Only way to get that much control is by moving the mouse on the lever in cab view, or using a rail driver, but I don't own one, nor have the cash to buy one.
Perhaps I could get a used one on Ebay??
I'll put it on my wish list<g>

I appreciate all the help you guys have been giving me here.

FW