help me build a trainz super computer

[GP_38-2]

Motherboard tier three company, either use Intel or ASUS for better Windows drivers and updates.
Video card SLI as I understand it needs the game to be able to use it otherwise it doesn't buy anything. As far as I know there are no special drivers for Trainz. You have however just raised the power supply and cooling requirements.
Processor as far as I am aware Trainz runs on a single core so the advantage of quad cores would be three cores adding extra heat? The program needs to be rewritten to use multiple cores. A dual core would let Traniz run on one and the operating system on the other.
Hard drive Trainz doesn't bottleneck on hard drives so why have four expensive ones instead of one or two more normal drives when Trainz can't tell the difference?
Overclocking yes it can be done but there are stability issues and heat issues with four core. Dual cores over clock better and the new 45 nm cpus over clock even better if you are into over clocking.
A physics card isn't used by Trainz so it would just add to the heat inside which makes the machine more unstable.
Case recommendation is a bit loose especially as with all the things you've put in it it's going to need a lot of cooling. I'd actually go and dig at tomshardware on cases. An Antec P190 might fit the bill here with the rest of what you are recommending.
You haven't mentioned an operating system choice by the way. TC is being run under Wine , XP 64 bit XP, vista, 64 bit vista.
Cheerio John

You know, usually I can't agree with John (just personal experience differences) but for once I can agree 100%. That is one overpriced, over heated, over bloated computer. In my notes the memory company is also a tier 2 company (at the least). Kingston, or even better Crucial is the best to buy when it comes to RAM.

Placer Railway, Hey good to see you back, long time no see (oh I've been slacking off on my D&S projects )
Great performance, great price
Motherboard: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131073
CPU (Processor): http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115028
Video Card (only need one):
Great performance for the price, gives the 8800 GTX a run for it's money
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814143119
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814143093
or if you're up to the extra money, but there is very very little difference in performance
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814143107
RAM (a couple choices here):
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820104001
or 2 sets of:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820148076
Hard Drives (a pair of these in RAID 1): http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822136053
Power supply (PSU):
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817371001
Case, honestly it's up to you, but from personal experiance:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811129017
DVD Drive:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16827106072
Antec makes solid affordable cases.
As far as an OS, as many problems as Vista has it's really the most user friendly way to go. Vista Home Premium or even basic Home is enough for most people.

Lo_Poly: This has become obvious in the numerous posts, you go after the flashiest, "uber recommended" components by the "majority". That may or may not actually be of any use. One must be careful in recommending computer parts, especially to someone that's new to custom computer building. I will back John up on his comments he is 100% correct.

Again I agree with John, I've seen rumors on the 45nm core Intel's and from early reviews they are well worth the money (and wait)

 

[johnwhelan]

Don't listen to me, my advice is crap!

No what you've done is raised some interesting issues. The motherboard recommended is probably based on a web site review which hasn't benchmarked it with Trainz. Trainz because of the way it works uses bits of the machine to the limit in an non mainstream way. What this means is you need exceptionally solid Windows drivers and they take time and money to develop.

The dual SLI video card with the correct program does give the best performance, unfortunately as far as I can see Trainz doesn't work that way at the moment. There is an ATI version that handles upto four video cards that may work better in DirectX 10 but Trainz doesn't use directX 10 as far as I know at the moment.

Place the phrase "I would propose" at the beginning of your list and it becomes a useful discussion document.

The other thing to take into account is that computers are not simply one or zero. They work by the presence or absence of electrons. Memory chips for example in theory either have about zero or 10,000 electrons zero is zero, 10,000 is one. Warm them up and the electrons get excited and some shoot off in odd places so now you are into probablility there are probably zero or 10,000 electrons. What happens if the cell leaks a bit and you end up with 5,000 is it a one or a zero?

Hard disk drives are the same, they are analog magnetic, warm a magnet up and it loses magnetism, the field isn't so strong. What happens if you have a voltage drop when writing to the hard drive and the voltage isn't high enough to flip the bit?

I tend to be a bit cautious but that's just my personality. I make decisions based on minimum risk. Others are more adventurous and will be happier overclocking. Understanding why something is said can make it easier to weight the suggestion.

Cheerio John

 

[Lo_Poly]

No what you've done is raised some interesting issues. The motherboard recommended is probably based on a web site review which hasn't benchmarked it with Trainz. Trainz because of the way it works uses bits of the machine to the limit in an non mainstream way. What this means is you need exceptionally solid Windows drivers and they take time and money to develop.

The Foxconn mobo I had recommended had been reviewed on Tom's Hardware (technically twice). http://www.tomshardware.com/2007/10/31/x38_comparison_part_1/page5.html http://www.tomshardware.com/2007/11/26/x38_comparison_part2/page4.html

The dual SLI video card with the correct program does give the best performance, unfortunately as far as I can see Trainz doesn't work that way at the moment. There is an ATI version that handles upto four video cards that may work better in DirectX 10 but Trainz doesn't use directX 10 as far as I know at the moment.

Place the phrase "I would propose" at the beginning of your list and it becomes a useful discussion document.

The other thing to take into account is that computers are not simply one or zero. They work by the presence or absence of electrons. Memory chips for example in theory either have about zero or 10,000 electrons zero is zero, 10,000 is one. Warm them up and the electrons get excited and some shoot off in odd places so now you are into probablility there are probably zero or 10,000 electrons. What happens if the cell leaks a bit and you end up with 5,000 is it a one or a zero?

Hard disk drives are the same, they are analog magnetic, warm a magnet up and it loses magnetism, the field isn't so strong. What happens if you have a voltage drop when writing to the hard drive and the voltage isn't high enough to flip the bit?

I tend to be a bit cautious but that's just my personality. I make decisions based on minimum risk. Others are more adventurous and will be happier overclocking. Understanding why something is said can make it easier to weight the suggestion.

Cheerio John

If you know what you are doing, you can properly overclock hardware, which can allow for a good performance increase. I was saying "overclock", because he could look into it if he wanted. With the video card SLI and the physics card, I personally like the idea of future-proofing.

But, it is true my advice is "crap", GP_38-2 was right about how overpriced, over heated, over bloated it is. I was just being honest.

 

[GP_38-2]

There are just some companies you stay away from. Tomshardware is good but they don't test for sustained operation. Basically about 90% of Foxconn motherboards I've seen/used blow out within a year, they just don't use quality parts.
Overclocking also has 3 serious problems with it.
1. Produces more heat (and from your system you run the risk of serious heat issues)
2. Shortens the life of the component, doesn't matter what the overclock is it will shorten the life span, it's just a matter of time.
3. And this is the kicker, usually it will void the warranty, and as point 2 states when the part fries that company is gonna give you the tough-luck shoulder.


Motherboard: ABIT, ASUS (probably the best), MSI, Gigabyte

Video Card: When it comes to video cards, especially today with SLI and Crossfire 99% of the cards are build to nVidia and ATI's reference designs, so they all look the same, BUT the quality of parts they use will differ.
nVidia: nVidia, BFG (about the best), XFX, EVGA, MSI, ASUS
ATi: ATI, Visiontek (IMO the best, Full Lifetime Warranties), GeCube

CPU (processor): don't have much of a choice here either Intel or AMD.

Sound: Onboard sound is ok, but certain chipsets have an effect on performance, for add-on cards Creative is a good company. Support ranges back to.........very OLD stuff.

Hard Drives: Western Digital, Seagate, Maxtor. I personally find Seagate and Western Digital to produce the lasting components.

Power Supply: Thermaltake, Silverstone, Antec. Antec is affordable and has good ratings through most of their line (the occasional pickle like any company).

RAM: Corsair, Kingston, Crucial. Corsair is ok, but I've had a higher failer rate with them. Kingston, no matter the line has been rock solid for many years. But above all the others is Crucial, solid parts, and as of now quite affordable

CD/DVD: Benq, Lite-on, Sony, all make good CD/DVD units. But I've never had one fail from any company.

Cases: Mmm now this is a sticky one, a lot of cases look good, but have poor build quality.
In-Win, Thermaltake, Antec, Coolmaster, Lian-Li, all make good cases, Lian-Li's cases are very expensive though (aluminum).

 

[Lo_Poly]

There are just some companies you stay away from. Tomshardware is good but they don't test for sustained operation. Basically about 90% of Foxconn motherboards I've seen/used blow out within a year, they just don't use quality parts.

I'll admit I've heard the case of Foxconn mobos having short lifetimes, I just really liked the idea of both DDR2 and 3 memory compatibility.

Asus is very good and my favorite motherboard manufacturer.

Here's something to try out.
Motherboard: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131218

Here's an 8800GT from Asus. Put 2 in SLI. If you know what you're doing, you can overclock them to 700Mhz like the Gigabyte model. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814121221

 

[GP_38-2]

Compatibility's worth squat if the motherboard dies. If you want junk parts buy a pre-made, they use the Foxconn crap in most pre-mades out there. No reason spend extra money to build it yourself.

ASUS, ABIT, Gigabyte, and MSI all make good motherboards. I've never had an issue with any of their boards. Any board from them is top-notch.

What is your fascination with SLI? As stated it WON'T see any performance increase with Trainz. Nor will Overclocking. It's ill-advised and can have some nasty consiquences.
A good 8800 GTS
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814143119
8800 GTX
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814143093
or if you're up to the extra money, but there is very very little difference in performance the 8800 Ultra
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814143107
Will do much better than any 8800 GT, SLI or not.

Ok was holding out on this one, but what the heck it's only $300, but it is a top-notch board:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131074

 

[johnwhelan]

Merely to demonstrate that GP_38-2 and I don't always say the same thing I'll put forward a completely different manufacturer's motherboard. The Intel DX38BT, nice solid board but unfortunately it doesn't support a floppy disk drive which kind of demonstrates you need to know the requirements.

Do you need a floppy disk drive?

Cheerio John

 

[Lo_Poly]

What is your fascination with SLI? As stated it WON'T see any performance increase with Trainz. Nor will Overclocking. It's ill-advised and can have some nasty consiquences.

I highly doubt he just plays Trainz, and that's it. He probably might have more graphics and resource intensive games and programs, thus I am suggesting SLI because there are many programs out there that can take advantage of it, and there is the possibility that he owns several. JET is outdated. It can't even make use of more than 1 CPU core.

And while I was saying that overclocking is up to him, it can save hundreds of dollars. There's the Q6600, 2.4Ghz and comes in at 275 USD. There's also the Q6700, 2.6Ghz, and comes in at 539 USD. Whether he decides to go for the Q6600 and overclock, not overclock, or go for the Q6700, or go for a completely different processor is up to him. I understand there are risks associated with it. There are many "risk-takers" out there who chose to over clock their hardware, and then there are the ones who are "cautious" who leave it as-is. I am assuming you are the cautious type GP_38-2. I am simply putting the idea on the dinner table, not forcing it onto his plate!

placer_railway, what are you're most commonly used apps on your current computer, and ones that you would like to use?


And just like I said a second ago, me, and everyone else is just putting ideas on the table. He is the one who choses what to put on his plate.

 

[GP_38-2]

Merely to demonstrate that GP_38-2 and I don't always say the same thing I'll put forward a completely different manufacturer's motherboard. The Intel DX38BT, nice solid board but unfortunately it doesn't support a floppy disk drive which kind of demonstrates you need to know the requirements.

Do you need a floppy disk drive?

Cheerio John

I wouldn't say that's an example of where we don't see eye-to-eye.
I will agree the DX38BT is a solid board. Yes it is short floppy support, but as you said that comes down to what Placer would need.

 

[Sourdough]

...as you said that comes down to what Placer would need.

...and I imagine that it will be a challenge to sort out what components would be best since this thread has kinda morphed into a who knows best tug of war....

 

[placer_railway]

impressive

hey all

here is a more simplified request

i want to run trainz 2006

i have huge amounts of content
severial uber detailed routes

i want the best frame rates i can get for the money

i only play trainz and sometimes rollercoaster tycoon 3
so short of trainz forum and downloading music from time to time

i mainly work on route building and running trains

old puter went through a lot of power supplies

i want a dual core fast one for only trainz
i want faster video card (had nvidia 6600 card)
4gb hd inside
the best extrenal hd to store only trainz stuff with lots of room to add more content
maximum ram for fastest frame rates what is max or is there TOO MUCH ram?
need dvd cd rw burner drive
wireless network
descent to better sound card
everthing else is fluff
all for train 2006
but want trainz classic so i need to run that too

hope that makes it more clear
thanks john

 

[GP_38-2]

still need that floppy drive?

If you need a floppy drive
Motherboard: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16813131073
CPU (Processor): http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16819115028
Video Card (only need one):
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814143093
Huge difference in price, little difference in performance
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814143107
RAM (a couple choices here):
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820104001
or 2 sets of:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820148076
Hard Drives (a pair of these in RAID 1): http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16822136053
Power supply (PSU):
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16817371001
Case, honestly it's up to you, but from personal experiance:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16811129017
Sound Card:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16829102006
Wireless adapter:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16833124069
DVD Drive:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16827106072
Antec makes solid affordable cases.

If you happen to prefer AMD
Motherboard:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131593
CPU (Processor):
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819103191
Video Card (only need one):
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814143093
again if you're up to the extra money, but there is very little difference in performance
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814143107
RAM (a couple choices here):
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820104001
or 2 sets of:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820148076
Hard Drives (a pair of these in RAID 1): http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16822136053
Power supply (PSU):
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16817371001
Case, honestly it's up to you, but from personal experiance:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16811129017
Sound Card:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16829102006
Wireless adapter:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16833124069
DVD Drive:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16827106072
Antec makes solid affordable cases.

For external backup? Well this should hold you for a while:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822136170

There's really no such thing as too much RAM, however 32-bit Windows XP (or 32-bit Vista) can only address 3.5GB even if you have 4GB physically installed. On the other hand 64-bit Vista is fine with 4GB of RAM.

basically if you build the computer to handle TRS2006 it will handle TC just fine. In fact TC will most likely run a bit faster than TRS2006 would.

John: Not disagreeing with you, the DX38 is a fine board, but for expandability sake (SLI) it's just not the board (wouldn't mind it if ATI had a top card to compete with the 8800 GTX/Ultra though)

 

[Euphod]

My system specs are below, I run 2006 and TC very pleasantly:

System Manufacturer: Euphod Heavy Industries, INC.
Case: ThermalTake Tsunami Dream
Operating System: Windows XP Professional Service Pack 2
System Motherboard Model: Asus P5K Deluxe
BIOS Date: 05/25/07 15:34:29 Ver: 08.00.12
Processor: Intel(R) Core(TM)2 Duo CPU E6850 @ 3.00GHz (2 CPUs)
Memory: 2048MB RAM
Card name: NVIDIA GeForce 8800 GTS
Chip type: GeForce 8800 GTS
DAC type: Integrated RAMDAC
Display Memory: 640.0 MB
Current Mode: 1600 x 1200 (32 bit) (60Hz)
Monitor: Samsung SyncMaster 204B
Monitor Max Res: 1600,1200
Sound Device Description: SB X-Fi Audio [EC00]
Disk Drive: C:
Free Space: 184.1 GB
Total Space: 238.5 GB
Model: ST3250410AS
Disk Drive: G:
Free Space: 181.6 GB
Total Space: 238.5 GB
Model: ST3250410AS
DVD Drive: D:Model: SONY DVD RW DRU-810A SCSI CdRom Device
CdROM Drive: E:Model: Memorex 52MAXX 2452AJ SCSI CdRom Device
Generic Floppy Disk

Of course, someone will be along shortly to insist this is NOT my system, and will tell you what system I really have....that being the nature of these forums. I can't wait to see what system I really have!


Ed

 

[john259]

Love 'em or hate 'em, either way I think it would be worth spending an hour or so on the Dell web site costing up a top of the range XPS with the all the best customisation options just see what comes out and what it all costs.

For anyone reading this thread who isn't an expert there's also a lot of useful background information about hardware devices on the Dell site which is worth reading. For additional explanations of current computer jargon Wikipedia is a good place to start.

John
ps John I can't wait to see the completed D&SNGRR - judging by your earlier screenshots it will be a true masterpiece!

 

[psycho_aussie]

Ed, I could say that you have a "dinosaur" computer, based on a Pentium 200 MMX, but I doubt that would have the room on the hard drive to install Trainz, let alone run it...

As another point of reference, my system is (custom-built of course):

Case: Thermaltake Shark
Operating System: Vista Ultimate x64/XP Pro SP2 (I dual-boot)
System Motherboard Model: ASUS M2R32-MVP
BIOS Date: 07/13/07 Ver: 0906
Processor: AMD Athlon64 X2 5200+ (2.6GHz)
Memory: 4GB PNY PC-6400 (800MHz) DDR2
Card name: Hightech Radeon HD2600 XT IceQ Turbo
Chip type: ATI Radeon HD2600 XT
DAC type: Internal DAC
Display Memory: 512MB GDDR3
Current Mode: 1440 x 900 (32 bit) (60Hz)
Monitor: LG L194WT LCD
Monitor Max Res: 1440 x 900
Sound Device Description: ADI 1988A HD Audio
Hard Disk Drive: Western Digital SATA-II 160GB (C:/D, WD SATA-II 250GB (E:/F, WD SATA-II 320GB (G:/H, WD SATA-II 250GB (I
DVD Drive: LG 18x GSA-H44N IDE DVD-RW
Floppy Drive: Generic Floppy Drive

Chris

 

[john259]

I tracked down a photograph of the control panel of Ed's computer... John

 

[johnwhelan]

hey all

here is a more simplified request

i want to run trainz 2006

i have huge amounts of content
severial uber detailed routes

i want the best frame rates i can get for the money

i only play trainz and sometimes rollercoaster tycoon 3
so short of trainz forum and downloading music from time to time

i mainly work on route building and running trains

old puter went through a lot of power supplies

i want a dual core fast one for only trainz
i want faster video card (had nvidia 6600 card)
4gb hd inside
the best extrenal hd to store only trainz stuff with lots of room to add more content
maximum ram for fastest frame rates what is max or is there TOO MUCH ram?
need dvd cd rw burner drive
wireless network
descent to better sound card
everthing else is fluff
all for train 2006
but want trainz classic so i need to run that too

hope that makes it more clear
thanks john

So my personal view is basically I'd suggest holding back for a couple of weeks until the new 45 nm Intel cpus are out. I'd go dual core about the third fastest Intel have, that's fast enough and the price performance is a lot better. One of the high end ASUS motherboards, that will take 8 gigs of memory, ideally ddr2 memory for price reasons this week, about 4 gigs, personally I'd go 64 bit Vista but that one is open to discussion since 32 bit XP is a little faster but not so future proof. nVidia 8800 GT 512 Mb video card but accept that nVidia will have one with more memory out shortly or another PCI 2.0 viable solution would be an ATI HD 3870. A little cheaper still with good performance that maybe enough. I currently run an 850 XT PE and I'm reasonably happy with the performance the 3870 is more powerful even if it doesn't quite hit the 8800 GT level. If it isn't then you can add in a second one with crossfire. Perhaps some one can comment if Trainz works well with crossfire.

A disscusion of crossfire is here.
http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=2858&p=3

ASUS P5E3 Deluxe/WiFi-AP LGA 775 Intel X38 ATX Intel Motherboard - Retail but I'd probably start with 2 gigs of ddr3 memory and add in more later when the price drops. DDR3 currently is around $250 per gig, ddr2 $40, in theory DDR3 should be cheaper to manufacture so the price should drop quite quickly.

Case / power supply probably Antec Sonata Plus 550 Black/ Silver Steel ATX Mid Tower Computer Case 550W Power Supply. 550 watts should give you enough power for two 3870 video cards and the Sonata's are a nice quiet case with lots of cooling. There are better cases with more powerful power supplies but the price mounts quite quickly above this level. Tomshardware.com will have comparable cases. The Sonata with a 500 watt power supply which can handle a single video card is a fair bit cheaper.

Cheerio John

 

[WileeCoyote]

I tracked down a photograph of the control panel of Ed's computer... John

So that is where my ACME PC went...

WileeCoyote