enormouse size of some assets

Bill69

New member
Hi all,

I have just downloaded a route from the DLS then set about downloading the assets that don't come with the route.
The size of some of these assets is staggering, for instance why would I download a "wooden lifeboat that's 8.8Mb", there are also some other assets that say in the description "made in google sketchup" that are far bigger than they need to be and this is getting more common as time goes on.
After downloading the required items I am just going to do a "delete missing assets" to get rid of the junk.

Bill69.
 
The problem isn't so much people making assets from scratch using Sketchup, but those who take 3D Warehouse models that are not intended to be used in a video game/simulator such as Trainz and convert them into Trainz assets. The poly count on these models is very high and they often have extra hidden textures and mesh surfaces that should have been removed before conversion.
 
Good idea, Bill.

Back when the converter was created, many of us including myself went hog wild converting assets until we discovered the huge size and inefficiency of the models created. This is due to how a B-spline model is converted to an N-gon type that we use in Trainz. In addition to the many, many more points, the textures are mapped individually instead of using UVW mapping where the texture map is laid out in a single file and coordinates are used to select the appropriate image. (I think of it as being like a decal sheet.) These individual textures are loaded individually instead of all at once and that adds to the drag on the program due to how they're handled in memory and on the video card.

The other issue we face with these models is their lack of LOD. For a small boat or other tiny object it may not be so bad, but for huge buildings this can cause a problem.

Now, I think there are ways of converting the B-spline models and making them more efficient by bringing them through another 3d-modeling program such as Blender, optimizing the meshes and textures, then exporting out in the appropriate format, but take my word on this.
 
Which is also why many, myself included, were not very enthusiastic about having all of those Sketchup sourced objects in Trainz. We were assured that they could / would be optimized but it seems that this has not been done is all cases.Too bad, some of those objects could have been useful but I would rather do without than overload my system with them.
 
Thanks for the replies, I see I am not the only one who does not like the system cluttered up with these extra large items.

Cheers,
Bill69
 
That particular creator (of the Wooden Lifeboat) has a total of 456 assets on the DLS, all are of kind "building" and while I did not physically check every single one, the large random sample I did examine all had the same description "Another model created in Google SketchUp and exported to Trainz with RubyTMIX." He/She has not uploaded anything since 18 April 2015.

7 of the items are labelled as "Packaged" so they have been used in DLC assets. I only have 1 item installed (not the lifeboat).

Before downloading individual assets from the DLS I routinely look at the File Size data and the description before deciding whether or not to use the time and bandwidth. I normally reject items that are large and with "Sketchup" or "RubyTMIX" in their descriptions.
 
Enormouse is the largest and scariest rodent on Earth. It eats resources by the terror bite and has never been captured in a photograph, only sketched up.
 
Improper conversion of downloaded models. I'm currently working on a blast furnace I purchased from Turbosquid and if I'm reading Blender right it's over a million polys.:eek:
I'm essentially using it as a template and redo-ing stuff and bringing material and map count waaaaaay down.
 
The problem isn't so much people making assets from scratch using Sketchup, but those who take 3D Warehouse models that are not intended to be used in a video game/simulator such as Trainz and convert them into Trainz assets. The poly count on these models is very high and they often have extra hidden textures and mesh surfaces that should have been removed before conversion.

This is absolutely correct. There are so many very detailed and well-done buildings in the 3-d warehouse that it is tempting for some sketchup users (not all) to upload them to the DLS ignoring the fact that 50,000 or 100,000 polys make them virtually useless for Trainz and other games. Somewhere in these forums I am on record for saying "people - don't do this!"

But what makes this problem even worse is that some find there way (often unintentionally) into routes that are uploaded to the DLS where they are less likely to be discovered.
 
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Unfortunately, conversion of 'stock' models (both sketchup, and 3D model stock stores/sites) is rarely as simple as grabbing a 3D model and then exporting it.

For good, game ready, models you will often only need to make LOD and possibly reduce texture size (as many these days use 4k, 8k, or greater textures specifically so you can alter them to suit the game engine they'll be used in), and configure material names. Even then, conversion of these objects still requires some work as you absolutely need LOD on them and there's often minor issues that need tidying up for use in specific games.

But there's a great many poorly created stock models (as far as game use is concerned, the model itself could be extremely good for static renders) available that have either far too many polys or many separate textures. These are the ones that require the most care when intending to convert to Trainz, as at a minimum you'll need to lower the poly count for the highest LOD, and try to compile the separate textures into one or two texture maps. These assets are going to be less of a time saving, but there can still be some as you already have at least a portion of the work done for you.

That said, for 'hero' objects sometimes you can make exceptions. If for example you are building an industry, and you find an object that fits really well for the major part of the industry, you may find that a less efficient but visually spectacular object works well. But even then you need to be careful of affecting performance if you have a lot of other objects around it. Note that in this case, my reference for hero objects are those that dominate the scene (ie it is both quite large, and it is important to the scene).

I've had a fair hand in the conversion of stock models to Trainz of late (you can find some in the new Bairnsdale to Orbost route, mostly cliff splines, rock objects, and street lights around the station yards; plus a nice selection in the newer main menu routes), and there is a lot of work to do it properly, even with really good models. Getting the balance between performance and visual quality isn't as easy as many think. But one of the biggest parts of it was definitely keeping textures to a minimum where possible, and ensuring that the LODs were as effective as possible.

We do hope to one day introduce some form of content evaluation tool, but until then it's very much worth viewing assets you aren't sure about in the 'preview asset' tool and see if A) it looks reasonable, and B) that both the poly and texture count go down at the further LOD distances.

It must be noted that objects that only have one actual LOD (ie the highest LOD, and then at an arbitrary distance make the object disappear) aren't going to help performance at all. It's a valid method for testing an object, and creators absolutely should make the object 'disappear' at a suitable distance in their LOD. But between 0m and the distance it disappears at, there absolutely should be at least 2 or 3 LODs.

The exceptions of course will be very low poly very small objects that don't get a huge amount of use in a scene (ie a simple wall poster won't have a lot of polys, so LOD will be minimal at best). Remember that you need to think both of the poly count of one of the object, and how often that object is likely to be seen in the scene. For example a small-mid size rock might have only 300 polys. But it might be used 500 times in the scene (remembering Trainz can display up to 15km from the player). If you have no LOD on this, then effectively that asset is displaying 60,000 triangles.

The 'performance analysis' in the Preview Asset tool is somewhat handy here. :) It places objects about every 20m (I think it was) in a grid, going off for quite a distance, with approximately 360 visible at any one time.

Testing with a 294 poly rock, without LOD I have 99372 triangles on the screen. With 5 LODs (LOD0, LOD1, LOD2, LOD3, LOD4) with transitions at 20m, 50m, 150m, 1000m, and 10000 (where it fully disappears), there's only 8256 polys visible on the screen. Apart from simply saving over 90k polys in the scene, if you think of this over all repeated objects in the scene, it can give you a greater leeway for using more or other objects.

Regards
 
Unfortunately, conversion of 'stock' models (both sketchup, and 3D model stock stores/sites) is rarely as simple as grabbing a 3D model and then exporting it.....(snipped)...

Regards

Zec

So very true.

In my one experience with a TurboSquid stock model (the famous Frank Lloyd Wright house "Fallingwater") there were so many completely unnecessary internal polygons, it took me months to simplify the mesh for LOD0 purposes. Then another month to derive the rest of the LOD series and texture the thing. It would have been much quicker to make it from scratch, but I could not find any decent building plans to guide me and had promised Epoche3bis4 that I would do this model for him. Just had to buckle down and do it.

Never again will I use a stock model.


.
 
Reply to Pware.

Yes I always look at the size of available downloads in a new route. First I list the dependencies then highlight all the ones that are "available for download" then sort them by "file size" This way I can see almost straight away what I don't need to download. Actually it would be great if we could sort by two or three fields at the same time in CM.

Cheers,
Bill69
 
Actually the biggests assets are often not from 3dwarehouse
but by creators highly appraised by N3v (will not name them)
There are insane sized cabs/interiors, with unneeded libraries
where the creators ignore the wonderful cab tag
outside-visible-from-cabin 1
and after that overthetop work and too big download you get PBR artifacts that make it plain ugly
bad for the game that ego-ware.
No asset stands alone ever and all has to be loaded and stored on your HD
Filter, be selective and your Trainz works better.
 
"G.M." You are quite right in what you said, and we must not forget that the large size of the assets include the large size in number of polygons in objects with a single mesh and without lods, which can be put with a build 4.6 or higher, simply putting in the config.tex tag:
"mesh-table-lod-transition-transition-distances x meters".
This object with thousands of polygons of a single mesh you put a build 4.5 for Tane and it comes out wrong, you change the build and add the distance tag and it is not wrong in 2019.
I have done this test with a single mesh object with thousands of polygons that Tane rejects it and in Trainz 2019 it has no error.


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On the CM the size includes the texture files, if most of this size is made of textures but the lowest LOD is less that 500 is that detrimental. The large size quite often is made up of a texture file and an alpha texture file. In a number of cases if these are very small you start loosing definition. I have many carriages on the DLS most are approx 16.9 MB but if i create CDP files from these they are only 3.0 MB. Which size is actually downloaded 16.9 or 3.0 as the white pages show the lower figure.

Ken
 
On the CM the size includes the texture files, if most of this size is made of textures but the lowest LOD is less that 500 is that detrimental. The large size quite often is made up of a texture file and an alpha texture file. In a number of cases if these are very small you start loosing definition. I have many carriages on the DLS most are approx 16.9 MB but if i create CDP files from these they are only 3.0 MB. Which size is actually downloaded 16.9 or 3.0 as the white pages show the lower figure.

Ken

Trainz compresses the texture files these days internally so the .cdp will contain the compressed texture files.

Cheerio John
 
Hi John
Bill was saying that some of the files are enormous, but my point was that you can't tell from the CM as that includes texture files and doesn't necessarily mean the mesh is large.

Ken
 
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