ECML Kings Cross too big

[Approach_Medium]

I am running TS12 on a slow system; single core P4 @ 3.4Ghz, 3Gigs DDR2, GeForce 9800 GTX+ 512.

While most of the routes that are built-in with TS12 are "playable", this one is not. It takes at least 15 minutes to load and complete drawing the map. Then, it is impossible to do anything with it.

There is far too much "open space" on the route. I cannot see a purpose in all this wasted space, so I am removing the outlying baseboard tiles to see whether I can run this route.

Has anyone run this route?
What are your thoughts?

Thanks

FW

 

[Davie_UCF]

My general thought is i'm not a fan of massive routes unless they have a lot of purpose with activities and AI, which I guess can be even harder to achieve on a massive route.
I have no interest in just driving a train along a massive route alone for no purpose for a long time.

I have a rather alright PC and I believe the ECML does work just ok for me.. But i've never really used it even though i'm from the UK :hehe:
Not sure how much resources all the baseboards take up however.


David

 

[clam1952]

Interesting to see if that makes any real difference as, according to I think it was Windwalkr, the number of baseboards has no affect on frame rate or performance. Thinking about it, Trainz only loads what is within the draw distance anyway.
Probably the extra boards are to avoid seeing the "Edge of the World" not everyone sits in the cab or stays at ground level all the time.

No problems with running ECML here, however that may be due to hardware that can handle it.

 

[pfx]

Probably the extra boards are to avoid seeing the "Edge of the World" not everyone sits in the cab or stays at ground level all the time.

Precisely correct.

 

[celje]

My general thought is i'm not a fan of massive routes unless they have a lot of purpose with activities and AI, which I guess can be even harder to achieve on a massive route.
David

Hello Davie

Ecml in Ts10 was running well. I made the session with 16 AI trains and performance were good enough (session: ECML AI freight and passenger). In TS12 i have the big problems. Look Changes to ECML in 2012? too.

Please be si kind and see my appeal in It would be very good thread. I really wish to see some comments.

regards
celje

 

[Approach_Medium]

So I guess I'm wasting my time deleting baseboards from the route, and I should get a new system!
It's been 6-1/2 years since my last one... way overdue, but don't have the cash at the current time. If I could find about $1,000 USD worth of stuff to sell on Ebay, that would be my new system!
Time to start going through the attic!

FW

 

[sniper297]

I'm not much for passenger trains so I never really looked, but tried it after reading this.

I got a dual core 2.8ghz, 2 megs RAM, 8500GT, on my system the session I tried never gets above 4FPS with all the sliders minimized. North East Corridor is the best of the builtins, 20FPS, altho a bit herky-jerky even in OpenGL. Possibly that's due to running in a perpetual cut below grade level, can't really see anything to the sides.

Methinks they shoulda tweaked these routes better or jacked up the minimum system specs, since apparently abandoning that ancient JET engine for something more efficient is not on the agenda.

 

[thabatao]

ECML overdesigned

I also think they have hopelessly too many baseboards. I have a high end PC with aquad core and 4 gigs memory and a 1 gig screen card and I suffer as well. The PC needs to stop and think regularly to get all the graphic info processed. I looked at the route in Surveyor, and there are some branchlines, but , yes I think ECML can go on a diet.
This is purely a personal opinion. The people who designed it, did a marvelous job. I understand now why they took so long. The surveyed very far from the track.
The only oyher problem I have is, we have no map as to where what goes, so you cannot figure out a route in and out. It took me 4 days to just get out of Kings cross.
Anybody have a map of ECML?

Happy Trainz,

Leon

 

[celje]

Sniper

4 GB RAM would be much better

 

[fran1]

I am running TS12 on a slow system; single core P4 @ 3.4Ghz, 3Gigs DDR2, GeForce 9800 GTX+ 512.

While most of the routes that are built-in with TS12 are "playable", this one is not. It takes at least 15 minutes to load and complete drawing the map. Then, it is impossible to do anything with it.

There is far too much "open space" on the route. I cannot see a purpose in all this wasted space, so I am removing the outlying baseboard tiles to see whether I can run this route.

Has anyone run this route?
What are your thoughts?
Looking at the P4 I guess it's a socket 775. You can still get socket 775 core 2 duo's and quads, though people will call them yesterdays technology.
My E8500 core duo (@3.16 ghz) runs trainz well, any route you want @ about 60% usage.
Your graphics card is good enough. Someone recently upgraded to a 560GTX Ti and noticed little change.
I've 8 gig of ram and never use more than 30%.
A fast core 2 duo will make trainz a lot better in my view.

 

[Approach_Medium]

I am running TS12 on a slow system; single core P4 @ 3.4Ghz, 3Gigs DDR2, GeForce 9800 GTX+ 512.

While most of the routes that are built-in with TS12 are "playable", this one is not. It takes at least 15 minutes to load and complete drawing the map. Then, it is impossible to do anything with it.

There is far too much "open space" on the route. I cannot see a purpose in all this wasted space, so I am removing the outlying baseboard tiles to see whether I can run this route.

Has anyone run this route?
What are your thoughts?
Looking at the P4 I guess it's a socket 775. You can still get socket 775 core 2 duo's and quads, though people will call them yesterdays technology.
My E8500 core duo (@3.16 ghz) runs trainz well, any route you want @ about 60% usage.
Your graphics card is good enough. Someone recently upgraded to a 560GTX Ti and noticed little change.
I've 8 gig of ram and never use more than 30%.
A fast core 2 duo will make trainz a lot better in my view.

Yes, but I think I would rather save my $$ now, and get today's technology tomorrow, at a savings of 50%! That is, if computer prices keep doing what they have been doing for the past 15 years.

While I play Trainz (TS12) more than any other game (or any other application for that matter) on this old dog, I have other priorities, like buying new running shoes, and race entry fees... I have cut minutes off my 10K race time by doing a lot of running; Too bad my computer can't get faster at what it does just by doing it a lot :hehe:

One thing I did notice though, especially with huge routes like ECML; keeping the drive defragged improves performance (in loading and saving) tremendously!

FW

 

[napierdeltic]

Sorry I’ve not been around to pick up these new comments with being one of the travelling fitters on 55022 railtour to the West Country on Saturday and electrical fault finding on 55002 at the NRM on Sunday coming first.

I’ve noted all concerns and points raised with the size of the route being the main one. I know it’s difficult to keep updating PC’s to faster machines and the personal cost involved. One way around this could be to produce two versions. One with less content ( Lite ), removing some splines and the secondary routes to places like Hull, Joint line etc. The other route keeping the present format for those with high spec m/c’s. Keeping all trackmarks the same on both versions for copying over sessions. Having the whole route from London to Edinburgh I feel needs to be kept as one entity.

Having created all the DEM from the beginning I can tell you that this is not the issue as saving this only took a few seconds it’s just the amount to content on the route that causes the PC to fall down. A cheap upgrade could be to increase the amount of RAM with the next more costly upgrade being a new graphic card followed of course by a new PC if the user is not confident in building a new one which is the way I normally do.

The ECML route I feel is very bare without spline grasses and more of these are being added at the moment. The only problem I have found is the sliver beach trees at Holme which make my PC splutter for a few seconds and will be replaced. On the question of layers it would have been nice too use this system but with most of the route already built its development came at the wrong time for us. I am very much for producing the route with seasons but until more textures have been released by you content creators I feel there is not enough to fill the whole route in correctly. Splines need to be designed for this also.

On Sessions we have not had time to cerate any at present but feel that those who have experience of this on the forum here could develop some. Personally I find it sad that there are not more of these on the DLS. The team have other issues that require more attention but once the route to Edinburgh is complete then looking at producing some will be on the cards.

On some sort of help required for setting up paths I feel that like anyone who is starting a career as a secondman/train driver needs to get route leaning knowledge by driving the route so I feel this is not an issue. Doesn’t it make the route more interesting in not knowing certain areas and gives a more added appeal rather than having everything given to the simulator driver on a plate ?

I look forward to more valid comments. :'(

Cheers
Stuart

ECML Project Leader

 

[celje]

Hello napierdeltic

I'm a little concerned.
You are talking about upgrade of PC, is configuration (Intel Core 2 Duo E 8400 3 GHz, 4 GB ram, GeForce GTS 250 1GB, Windows XP pro) to little for decent run King Cross-Newcastle route. Please can you advice wich configuration is good enough.


regards
celje

 

[napierdeltic]

Yes that should be good enough.

Mine is - Argon Intel Core i3 550 3.20GHz overclocked to 4.38 Ghz with 4GB of RAM and a OcUK GeForce GTX 550Ti 1024MB GDDR5 PCI-Express Graphics Card. O/S being Windows XP.

Cheers
Stuart

 

[NikkiA]

I’ve noted all concerns and points raised with the size of the route being the main one.

Stuart,

let me voice something that undoubtedly many of us silent-majority are thinking - that ECML is just great how it is, and that it is a magnificent undertaking close to the scale of the engineering undertaking of building the real thing in the first place.


I think part of the problem is that many non-brits fail to realise that the ECML route is prototypical, and one of the most important/well-known/well-loved rail routes in the UK (I would say 'THE most', but I suspect we'd get a lot of 'WCML is more important/special' and I can understand that point of view - a fully built 1980s era WCML to the same level of detail would be a joy to behold too).

That it is accurate enough for people to recognise places in it, is a testament to how much world the ECML team has put into getting the ECML right, even if there are minor flaws here and there (which is to be expected on a 200+ mile long route.

If there is any of these requests/demands that has merit, it would be the idea of perhaps offering broken up sections for local services in addition to a full blown route, ala S&C add-on. Certainly chopping off sections or branchlines is not really a sensible suggestion. Removing some of the scenary would also be similarly foolish I suspect.

The bottom line is, if it requires a decent spec machine to run it, so be it, people without that spec machine are free to run other routes - from the DLS or elsewhere. Personally, I get around 15fps on my PC, it's not fantastic, but the ability to drag aggregate from Thrislington to Doncaster or the cement works at kings cross (stopping in Ferryhill for a few minutes of course) makes up for it. Railworks models a similar region, but the disconnect when you reach York and can't go any further without loading other routes is huge, the level of immersion is broken and it spoils a lot of the fun.

(Btw, to the ECML team, *please, please, please* consider adding the spur to Tyne Dock in a future release, it's not a long line, but with that crazy gradient (practically 1 in 40 for several miles) and the traffic it has seen in the past, and still to today, it is one of the key areas of NE region ECML freight runnings, almost as important as Ferryhill or the Tyne yard.)

 

[celje]

napierdeltic, thank you for information, i was a little afraid that my PC is not strong enough. as you said it should be.
It's my favorite route and i wish, that it stay in ''one piece'' to Edinburg and, of course, to stay playeable too. In past i sent you a private message about King Cross-York with my observations, i will do the same for KC-Newcastle in couple of days.

regards
celje

 

[colourlight]

Sadly my computer can,t handle ECML (KX-YORK) which is disappointing as I live in March which is about 15 track miles from Peterborough on an ECML diversionary route. Still, it,s a great route and I can tell a great deal of time and effort has gne into creating it. Have you done to going to do the route from Peterborough to Cambridge Junction via Cambridge? If you do don,t forget to include the signalbox I work in, March East, LOL. I look forward to the day when I upgrade my computer so I can play it properly.

 

[Kennilworth]

Hi

When I first got TS2010 I was looking forward to using the ECML route but I had problems similar to the ones that have been mentioned. My solution was to cut the route into smaller sections as some people here are asking for. I have a number of sections now which have been created by deleting the unrequired boards.

The sections that I have left have been much modified and have had most of the speedtrees replaced with 2D turn to camera speedtrees (payware by Jankvis). I have also replaced some of the older splines with native mode friendly ones and added more (again mostly payware ones).

The result of all this is that I now have cut down sections that have decent framerates on my two and a half year old computer (Intel E8400 dual core chip, Radeon HD4850 512mb Graphics card, 4gb ram). I have also found in 2010 that using Direct X I can get almost four times the framerates that I get using Open GL. In TS12 there doesn't appear to be much difference between them.

It isn't a major task to reduce the route to useable sections and I was able to delete the bulk of the boards in one evening. If anyone wants to do this my advice is to save it frequently as I found that deleting too many boards at once crashed TS2010 and lost all the work done. It may take a few hours to do it but I have found it most rewarding and well worth the effort.

I now have TS12 and am looking at cutting that route down to the York to Newcastle section as I have a WTT for the mid 1950s for that area. The problem is that I am spending so much time using the cut down sections in TS2010 that I haven't found the time yet to actually do it.

I would encourage anyone who has problems with the whole route to cut it down to the section or sections that interest you as it would be a shame to not be able to use this great route at all. Having worked to modify the sections to my own requirements I can appreciate the amount of time and effort that has gone into producing the whole route.

Regards

Brian

 

[Deano5]

I love this route so much, I spent a long time putting in AJS stations and SnC mail industries, basic industries and so on so on. I got all the way from London to Peterborough, and now it's worthless as I have to start all over again. Now I learn that a newer version is on the way up to Scotland.
I give up, Why can't it have the simple AJS stations in place already as you are building it, the are built in assets and take only seconds to set up for use?
To go along the route after release and add them takes an eternity just to make it realistic to use with full industries????????

 

[LieLestoSbrat]

That I can answer as it was way back when I was involved with the team. We found that interactive stations when used with the Deltic cab simulator caused problems when pulling away from the stations. You have to accelerate quite hard to avoid the station 'catch'. The problem was stick to much power through then you would draw to many Amps and the loco would flash over (If I recall that was scripted into the cab sim). If you didn't pull away hard enough then you would simply stop and it would go through the whole load/unload process again. Very annoying. This would get more annoying if your pulling a heavy freight train and got stuck in a station, overall it was found that interactive stations where a bad idea, caused more problems than they are worth and in my view they still do.

Oh an if you have added interactive stations, your work in not worthless, just merge it to the new route. That's what I'm going to do with my 1950's version, and with the super satellite zoom in TS2012 its rather quick to delete baseboards compared to older versions of Trainz.

Rob