Diesel v. Steam; New controversy for those who love to argue

[wholbr]

Hi everybody.
Even if there is a suitable future fuel source for rail steam then you would still have the problem of the unstable nature of steam power in a modern transport environment. As someone who works in industrial safety I feel it would be very difficult to get acceptance from employers or their insurers for the widespread the use of steam power when other power options are available and more viable both financially and on safety grounds.

If you take a diesel power unit then the hot side of the unit (the section which transports hot gases or vapours and therefore can cause substantial injury or death) is confined to the exhaust system which is normally quite short before being vented to the atmosphere where it is quickly diluted and cooled.

If you then take a steam power unit the hot side of the unit extends from the boiler output, then through the input side of the motive plant (whether that be turbine or piston) and then through the exhaust side of the motive plant where it can be vented into the atmosphere or more likely unless you wanted your train to have stop continuously to take on water the steam will have to be passed into a condensing/cooling unit where the water could be passed back into the boiler. Throughout the whole passage of the steam propellant there would be a potential for serious leaks such as flange burst which can cause devastating injury or death to anyone in the vicinity especially employees such as maintenance workers.

Steam turbine power is suited to stable environments such as power stations etc where easy monitoring/inspections can be undertaken continuously and safely while the plant is running. In a transport environment the foregoing is certainly not possible and where continuously varying stresses would be applied, the potential for sudden plant failure with a high possibility of causing serious injury to anyone in the vicinity could not be ignored.

Britain ran large amounts of steam motive power right up to the mid-1960s. Anyone who reads British rail’s industrial injury records for the time period 1945 until 1960 will quickly realise just how dangerous steam power really is.

Bill

 

[BLACKWATCH]

Britain ran large amounts of steam motive power right up to the mid-1960s. Anyone who reads British rail’s industrial injury records for the time period 1945 until 1960 will quickly realise just how dangerous steam power really is.

And still does (take a trip or 2 around the preservation lines, or see 'Tornado' In song) & it all passes 'Health & Safety' regs, so STEAM is no more dangerous than
any other mode of rail traction in this country.

 

[wholbr]

Hi Blackwatch and Everybody.
Blackwatch,I did not state in my posting that steam as a source of rail motive power could not pass current health and safety regulations in the UK. The health and safety at work act 1974 merely states that an employer should ensure that everything reasonably practical is carried out to ensure an employee does not sustain personal injury or damage to health during the course of his duties to an employer.

The foregoing legislation is far different in basic terms to what is acceptable these days to major employers and insurance companies. The words "everything reasonably practical" has been the source of many hundreds of thousands of court cases brought about by ambulance chasing solicitors since the compensation culture started in the late eighties and continues to be the bane of industrial safety in this country right up till today. In the foregoing no employer or their insurers will accept any level of risk when a financially/working viable alternative production platform is available.

With regard to preserved railways no doubt they can gain insurance due to their low usage, scheduling and speed restrictions etc that they work/run at. As for the tornado it is a one-off engine especially built and maintained for its limited use on the mainline railways. However, if you were thinking of bringing back widespread steam power across all the British rail network you would be in a completely different ball game from which the safety problems involved could well be insurmountable within the scheduling and running speeds that they work at.

However that said, should the above above come about and I am sure my company would have more work than we knew what to do with as we secure over 90% of our work in industrial safety from employers and insurance companies who are being subject to claims.

Bill

 

[BobCass]

They now have proof, that if we continue on the same path as we now have(pollution)..By 2080 we will loose a large number of animals and vegetation..Go windpower, Renewable energy..

 

[jjanmarine3]

perhaps another little + for steam among all the -'s is job creation then ? ...:'(

 

[wholbr]

Hi Bob, Jan and everybody.
Bob, with regard to producing some or all the energy we need from natural sources then solar energy seems to be the most promising up to now. Many windfarms have sprung up across the British countryside and throughout Europe but I have to say that these have achieved an awful reputation for being inefficient, expensive and not producing the power you wish at the time you want to have it.

However, in Britain people are abandoning their cars and turning to the railways for their daily commutes and longer business travels in numbers undreamt of only a few years ago, and for the environmental future that is a huge plus. With passenger numbers increasing by over 10% per year that means there are fewer car journeys being made with diesel and petrol sales reducing by over 20% in the last 18 months alone. If the forgoing figures could be repeated in all industrial countries especially the United States, then (to repeat a very famous American) it could be “one giant leap for mankind”. It would certainly not be the end of the environmental battle, but getting people out of their cars and onto public transport worldwide would certainly be a huge victory in the way people think, travel and most of all respect the future of their environment.

Well after having the few days off which included a wonderful trip to Manchester (by rail) over the weekend, I am off back to work tomorrow which will include several trips around and across the United Kingdom which will also be by rail, so I am certainly doing my part environmentally. I have very much enjoyed joining in the debate on this thread and look forward to doing so again if I ever get the chance to retire which is not looking too hopeful at the moment. That is due to not being able to find and recruit persons with the right qualifications for our industry/business. I would not have believed that possible in a country with over 16% unemployment amongst its young people.


Bill

 

[nicky9499]

Everybody who has made a point about electric trains have failed to consider one critical issue: how is the electricity generated? Granted, there are existing forms of "green" energy, but you will find in most cases they only account for a small percentage of the total grid usage, the rest being fossil fuel.

Also, Krug's article made a comparison based simply on cost. Nowhere did he mention environmental issues, which appears to have taken over this thread.

 

[jjanmarine3]

There are a few points in general that I wonder and ponder about too :
Greed, political interference and the likes always cause monopolies and 'force' development in certain preferred directions and the end products end up being not as cost effective and successful as what it could be. The goal is always how much money can a few of us make and not what is the best for society .
The existing public transportation systems have so many middle men hanging on them that the end prices are not fair and reasonable as what they could be. Perhaps a good example is toll roads, but that is another story...
So then who says the powers that be have and will apply the best practices in the past and in the future.

 

[wholbr]

Hi everybody.

Everybody who has made a point about electric trains have failed to consider one critical issue: how is the electricity generated? Granted, there are existing forms of "green" energy, but you will find in most cases they only account for a small percentage of the total grid usage, the rest being fossil fuel. Also, Krug's article made a comparison based simply on cost. Nowhere did he mention environmental issues, which appears to have taken over this thread.

Nicky, the article that the opening poster referred to in the main concentrated on day-to-day running costs of steam as compared to diesel. As the person who wrote the article admitted that he was a steam fanatic and he/she undoubtedly painted the steam figures in the best possible light. What the author of the article appeared to leave out was the cost of design and production of steam power units as against the same v diesel powered units or overhead feed all electrical power units.

The author also did not look at the cost of maintenance. Steam power units would undoubtedly need regular maintenance on their boilers, turbines or pistons as well as their water cooling/condensation units. With running temperatures and pressures well above that of a diesel or electric powered unit (with the exception of the actual pistons in diesels) costly maintenance schedules would be a big drawback in their overall running costs on an annual basis. Large diesel engines used in road transport these days usually run for more than 200,000 miles before any major maintenance is required and it would be difficult for anyone to see that comparison met with steam.

The author also did not look or refer to the working environment surrounding steam powered units. With high steam temperatures and pressures in excess of two hundred lbs per square inch there would be obviously higher risks to employees and others in the vicinity of these units. This would reflect back to the operators of steam in terms of higher insurance costs which along with the purchase costs and maintenance of the units has in the end to be paid for by the Passengers or Freight customers that the operating company has or hopes to get. Not great when you are competing with the company down the road which is using tried and tested diesel or diesel electric technology.

There are a few points in general that I wonder and ponder about too :
Greed, political interference and the likes always cause monopolies and 'force' development in certain preferred directions and the end products end up being not as cost effective and successful as what it could be. The goal is always how much money can a few of us make and not what is the best for society .
The existing public transportation systems have so many middle men hanging on them that the end prices are not fair and reasonable as what they could be. Perhaps a good example is toll roads, but that is another story... So then who says the powers that be have and will apply the best practices in the past and in the future.

Jan, the best way to protect against greed and corruption in political figures is through democracy. If you feel someone in your Parliament or counsel is not acting in the national or regional interest of the general public then the best way to fight back is to ensure that you vote and vote against them whenever an election is held. If you feel that none of those on the ballot paper represent your interests then why not stand for election yourself, that’s democracy and that’s the way that things should be changed when necessary.

I apologise for saying this especially when there are so many steam enthusiasts on this forum, but any thoughts of seeing steam brought back into mainline service on national railways is a pipe dream and will remain so.


Bill

 

[jjanmarine3]

No problem wholbr - dreams are made for dreaming
I don't want to get into a debate about politics, but I will say that I have never seen or heard of a politician who cares for anything but themselves, a honest person won't make it in that business IMO....in this part of the world votes are counted , miscounted and lost untill the desired party wins anyway...
Back to the topic then - I think anyone who worked on and in steam locos and trains would like them back, however impossible and impractical it might be, so I am sure many of us will dream on then :wave: