Copyright - It really means something you know

[trw1089]

Hi all

This is a bit of a reminder to all those new, and not so new, to the wonderful world of Trainz.

I have noticed a disturbing trend of late where people are taking others content, manipulating it and then posting threads about releasing it without ever seeking permission from the original authors. This is not new in the Trainz world, but it seems to happening a little more frequently now.

This has happened to me directly recently with someone wanting to reskin one item of my content included in the Trainz Classics Harlem Line. I have also seen the same thing happen with Magicland's content and a few others.

While it is fine to want to reskin, alter or modify content this is OK if you want it for your own purposes, but if you want to release this stuff to a wider audience, you must at least seek permission from the original author/s before stating that you are going to release the material. This helps sort out whether there would be any restrictions on the release, for example DLS hosting or not, and also, whether there were any conditions the original author had to follow.

An example of this shows some of the issues: I finished the texturing of one of prjindigo's meshes for him some time back and had permission to release the item under my kuid. I also wanted to release another reskin of the item from a different railroad, however because of the original restrictions from prjindigo to me, I was not able to as there were licence conditions on the original mesh. Hence, if others were to reskin without permission, they would also be in a position to breach the licence agreement.

It doesn't take much to ask for permission, and this is a plea to all you budding and current content creators. All it takes is a simple email to the creator. If there is no reply, it doesn't mean permission is granted, and only through an active consent (i.e. the person saying yes, it's OK to go ahead) should you then talk about releasing it.

Cheers
Tony

 

[Pencil42]

I thought this was one of the functions of the license field in the config.txt file. I agree that if you want to do anything that is outside what is in the license, permission from the creator would be needed. Not to say I don't mind being asked when someone wants to modify my stuff, but I don't think it's a requirement.

Curtis
(who's trying to spur some lively discussion on this topic :wave: )

 

[johnwhelan]

I think I agree on this one. Most of my work you can reskin no problem. Some specific items I've used something with permission from someone else and I don't have the right to give you permission to do anything.

If my license says you may reskin fine go ahead, if it doesn't specifically say that please contact me to confirm you have permission to do whatever or we can arrange to upload it with a kuid that has permission.

Cheerio John

 

[Accipiter777]

I'll look more closely for those licence agreements.

 

[chrisaw]

I can't understand some of the license agreements I've looked at.

Chris.

 

[Accipiter777]

I'm sure the person using it does not know either.

 

[ex-railwayman]

Well I aint a creator, but I would have thought that just out of courtesy it's always best to ask beforehand, otherwise, if permission is not granted for whatever reason, and the asset is put out on general release, you're going to get into trouble.
Always err on the side of caution.....Whatever that means..:hehe:

Cheerz. ex-railwayman.

 

[pommie]

Just to clarify one thing about the license agreement, if the area is left blank or not in the config at all, it means that you do NOT have permission to do anything what so ever.
Some seem to think that if there are no disclaimers it ok to do what you want, when the opposite applies.

My opinion on some of the copyrights does not enter into this (and is off topic), if you disagree with what a creator has done with copyright, take it up with them or as a last resort Auran.

Cheers David

 

[BLueNeon]

An example of this shows some of the issues: I finished the texturing of one of prjindigo's meshes for him some time back and had permission to release the item under my kuid. I also wanted to release another reskin of the item from a different railroad, however because of the original restrictions from prjindigo to me, I was not able to as there were licence conditions on the original mesh. Hence, if others were to reskin without permission, they would also be in a position to breach the licence agreement.

Cheers
Tony

Interesting example you have there Tony ... and in direct conflict with this ..

http://forums.auran.com/trainz/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=160367

Seems auran has let the forums just bark in the kennel.

As of August 20th 2007 all of my models I release to public domain. This means they are public property and you need only follow Auran's own guidelines for release of work ON Auran's download station. All other releases of SPECIFICALLY KUID:58377 models are made under your own cognizance and responsibility.

This additionally covers any editable mesh objects and/or script code materials I have produced for the game that you may have.


That's an official statement.

Seems the box of disks with my modeling content got moved into a location that didn't have climate control and were destroyed. I'd been looking for them for about two months when I found them :'( but that's the mess the cookies leave.

I've not had a chance to even fight to try to install a modeling program for more than ten months and have acquired two hand injuries (minor) that make long sessions on the mouse somewhat disabling to do, so it's not likely that you'll see me again around here.

I am working on something else in the design portion of the MMO market, so you'll likely see something I've had a hand in again tho.

Mods please forward this to auran directly as well.

You have a nice day .. and check your facts before posting

BN

 

[Red_Rattler]

http://forums.auran.com/trainz/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=160367
You have a nice day .. and check your facts before posting

Also check the links before posting!

 

[PerRock]

Interesting example you have there Tony ... and in direct conflict with this ..

http://forums.auran.com/trainz/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=160367



You have a nice day .. and check your facts before posting

BN

I think the point still stands. it was an example; not something specific.

That being said. Not being a mesh creator, I ALWAYS ask first. Regardless of what the license says. If it says you can release free of asking on the DLS, I still ask. Sometimes creators change their licenses later on. Another time is when it says no reskins; sometimes if you ask nicely and have "quality" reskin they will let you release it.

peter

 

[Natvander]

International copyright law applies to ALL assets created for Trainz. Copyright is not something that needs to be applied for, nor does it need a symbol, license or any other identification. It is automatically applied the moment the asset is created (just like a painting, written work, photograph etc etc).

Requesting permission to alter, manipulate etc another persons content for distribution is not only common courtesy, it is a legal requirement.

If you EVER want to use any part of another persons asset (images are an example), ALWAYS ask permission first. If the answer is no, then it's back to the drawing board for you.

 

[Kelly88]

There is also a problem that some times you do not recive an answer from your request

I had this once
I run mostly UK systems, and I needed a Grain Hopper, there is only 1 on the DLS that fitted the bill , but it was not industry active
Now I altered the config to make it active for my own use, no problem there, now some time ago there was a comp wich I entered, so I submitted one of my routes and sessions, no this session used the grain Hopper I had modified, so I asked for permissions to submit it to the DSL with usual notices or to send it to the original creator for approval and if he wished he could put it up in his own name, the important thing was to have it up and available to anyone that downloaded the session, anyway there was never any responce from that request so I had to change the wagon to the original, wich detracted somewhat the object of the session

Not a complaint here just an observasion

rgds all
Mike

 

[trw1089]

Interesting example you have there Tony ... and in direct conflict with this ..

http://forums.auran.com/trainz/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=160367



You have a nice day .. and check your facts before posting

BN

Ummm, excuse me, but my example relates not to his general statement, but to my agreement with him when I was doing the mesh, which was a considerable period of time before his general release.

The example is to illustrate a point, it still stands that there may be other agreements (such as hosting of the models) that must be adhered to, but which would not be known to subsequent modifiers of models unless they asked the original creator. All I'm trying to point out is that there is a vested right in the original model/artwork/sounds/scripts/images etc that others should not (and legally cannot) ignore. It takes a simple email or request on the forums. That's not too hard for us trainzers is it?

Cheers
Tony

 

[BLueNeon]

Ummm, excuse me, but my example relates not to his general statement, but to my agreement with him when I was doing the mesh, which was a considerable period of time before his general release.

The example is to illustrate a point, it still stands that there may be other agreements (such as hosting of the models) that must be adhered to, but which would not be known to subsequent modifiers of models unless they asked the original creator. All I'm trying to point out is that there is a vested right in the original model/artwork/sounds/scripts/images etc that others should not (and legally cannot) ignore. It takes a simple email or request on the forums. That's not too hard for us trainzers is it?

Cheers
Tony

I always have and see no reason not to continue.

It would have been appropriate after using Rogers original license as an " example " to point those same " New " members that you mentioned to in your first post to the his statement releasing his work into the PD and that emails are no longer needed . Not too much trouble to keep to the facts as they now , and not as they once where .

BN

 

[trw1089]

Sorry BN, but I think you are wrong, I was using the facts to explain an issue, so what that prjindigo may have changed things. I don't believe that is still the case with the model I made from his mesh. His statement to me was that the mesh could not be used for release of certain railroad skins because of a license agreement he had. To me, that would not have changed and therefore still governs the future release of my model using his mesh. As such, I think it is completely relevant and appropriate to use as an example.

If you want to continue to ignore the issue at hand by trying to nitpick so called "facts", then feel free. I am illustrating a point and a continuing problem for the hopeful betterment of the community, something which others seem to agree with.

Tony

 

[bird_d00]

Did you get permission from the railroad before reskinning your locos? Copyright does exist on the real thing and by copying the graphics designs without permission you are breaking the law just as surely as in reskinning someone elses mesh. At least one manufacturer of decals here in UK has got in legal trouble over this, and the situation now as I understand it is that they (and other manufacturers of railway products) have to pay a license fee to the copyright owner. Computer models would be treated just the same. As long as it is for your personal use then that is ok, but if you are distributing items via the DLS then you MUST get permision and pay any license fees to the train operating company first.

Dave Bird

 

[Heaton]

This is an important issue. Also there are many myths surrounding the issue of copyright (a common one being that there is some definite percentage of the original that can be changed to creat a `new' product).

Here's the US copyright website;

http://www.copyright.gov/

This contains much useful info, and you can assume that international agreements mean that anything it says there more than likely applies in other countries.



EDIT: "At least one manufacturer of decals here in UK has got in legal trouble over this.."
I just noticed that in a previous post, and it reminded me that there is also trademark law, which is a different legal issue that needs to be considered (unlike copyright, a trademark must be registered and maintained). One should also look up the related subject of "trade dress", which deals with the overall appearance of a commercial product.

There are many pitfalls for the unwary in the creative business.

 

[b9k9kiwi]

Did you get permission from the railroad before reskinning your locos? Copyright does exist on the real thing
...

A very good point and one which I wondered if anyone would pick up on.

You cannot claim copyright where the item covered is, in itself (in whole or in part), a breach of copyright.

I'm not at all sure that this thread is worth all the energy and angst bearing in mind that the license conditions stipulated in the config of Trainz objects are almost certainly unenforceable.

Generally speaking, I concede that the rights (such as they are) and the creativity of the originator should be respected. An acknowledgement of the originator where an item has been reskinned, for example, seems to me to be polite and appropriate. If I were at all interested in uploading reskins or rejigs (where, for example, bogeys or couplings have been altered), however, I can't imagine that I would be too interested in participating in the boot-licking and grovelling that some originators seem to desire before they give 'permission'.

I have expressed my gratitude to content creators from time to time, and their responses to my very occasional requests (even where they have been unable to help) have always been kind and considerate.

Kindness and consideration is expected in any group activity - it's a two way street and, occasionally, one person or another will dissappoint us.

 

[Accipiter777]

Did you get permission from the railroad before reskinning your locos? Copyright does exist on the real thing and by copying the graphics designs without permission you are breaking the law just as surely as in reskinning someone elses mesh. At least one manufacturer of decals here in UK has got in legal trouble over this, and the situation now as I understand it is that they (and other manufacturers of railway products) have to pay a license fee to the copyright owner. Computer models would be treated just the same. As long as it is for your personal use then that is ok, but if you are distributing items via the DLS then you MUST get permision and pay any license fees to the train operating company first.

Dave Bird

Funny how the "Copyright" thing seems to only work in one direction. Wonder who gonna step in the ring and against the above comment. Wonder how much "payware" is out there with no permission for use, but demands their own "Copyright" to be followed. Good observation Dave!