Connect wagons with each other - it is possible using rules?

[belgian46]

Hello,

At place X ( see screenshot 2017-09-14 162506.jpg ) double connected locomotives with wagons ( lumber ) are riding to place Y ( track 2 ).

screenshot 2017-09-14 162506.jpg

Arriving at place Y ( see screenshot 2017-09-14 162418A.jpg ) - the double connected locomotives with wagons are halted at the point where you can see the red circle in the screenshot. The double locomotives + wagons are placed between the red and blue circle.

screenshot 2017-09-14 162418A.jpg

Screenshot 2017-09-14 162234.jpg shows at place Y ( at track 1 ) another locomotive with wagons ( lumber ).

Screenshot 2017-09-14 162234.jpg

Is it possible using rules, to drive the locomotive at track 1 ( see screenshot 2017-09-14 162234.jpg ) into the direction of the other wagons, which are waiting between the red and blue circle ( see screenshot 2017-09-14 162418A.jpg )?

If yes, what rules must be used and is this an easy job? I am using Tane ( build 88364 )

Kind regards

Kurt :wave:

 

[davidbird]

Not sure exactly what you are wanting to do here.

Does the pair of locos come off the first train, leaving just the wagons, and then the single loco connect to these wagons, making one very long train?
If it's not that, I'm confused as to what you're attempting, and why.

By "Rules", do you mean the driver commands, the icons you add into the bar across the bottom of the screen to tell AI what to do, or do you mean Rules that are added to a session during setup with the button on the top menu-bar?

 

[belgian46]

Not sure exactly what you are wanting to do here.

Does the pair of locos come off the first train, leaving just the wagons, and then the single loco connect to these wagons, making one very long train?
If it's not that, I'm confused as to what you're attempting, and why.

By "Rules", do you mean the driver commands, the icons you add into the bar across the bottom of the screen to tell AI what to do, or do you mean Rules that are added to a session during setup with the button on the top menu-bar?

Hello davidbird,

Thank you for your reply.

The pair of locomotives remain connected to the wagons and the complete train is waiting in the position between the red and blue circle ( ref screenshot 2017-09-14 162418A.jpg ).

My intention is ( as it happens in reality ) , to drive the second train with wagons ( track 1 - ref screenshot 2017-09-14 162234.jpg ) in the direction of the first train ( double locomotives with wagons ), connect the wagons with each other and then disconnect train 2 from the wagons.

By rules, I do mean the driver commands at the bottom of the screen. However, it is possible that my intention cannot be realised using driver commands in driver setup and another method has to be used.

Using driver commands, I used this solution - here is the setup that works, but not realy the solution I'm looking for.

The double connected locomotives with wagons go to place Y. At place Y the wagons with lumber are waiting ( no other train is connected to the wagons ). The double connected locomotives with wagons are halted at the place between the red circle and blue circle ( ref screenshot 2017-09-14 162418A.jpg ). Using commands, the double connected locomotives with wagons are driving backwards ( via track 1 ) to the place where the wagons with lumber are waiting. Once the connection has between realised - again using commands - the double connected trains with all the wagons rides forward and continues its journey.

I also had the following in mind - Take note at what time the double connected locomotives with wagons arrive at place Y.
Then knowing that specific time - use jsTRF-Timetable. I have never used jsTRF-Timetable before, so it is unclear to me if a solution can be obtained using the jsTRF-Timetable method.

This method is probably useable if the timetable is respected every time the double connected locomotives with wagons leave place X and arrive at place Y. However, when something goes wrong ( junction issues or other ... ) between place X and place Y, the above solution will not be functioning.

Kind regards

Kurt :wave:

 

[Bill69]

Hi belgian46,

Does this mean you want to make up one long train with one loco at the front and two locos in the middle?

If so you will have to have a driver in one of the two locos in the double headed train, after loading tell that driver to drive to the track mark by the blue circle and stop train. After loading the second train with one loco tell the driver to "couple at trackmark" the one by the red circle. After coupling you may have to tell the driver in the double loco train to "get off train" then tell the driver in the front loco to "drive to" wherever you want him to go but you may have to back the whole train behind the branch signal first.
Incidentally I notice you have the branch signal by the blue circle on the wrong side of the points, move the signal back towards the trackmark.

Cheers,
Bill69

 

[davidbird]

...

The pair of locomotives remain connected to the wagons and the complete train is waiting in the position between the red and blue circle ( ref screenshot 2017-09-14 162418A.jpg ).

My intention is ( as it happens in reality ) , to drive the second train with wagons ( track 1 - ref screenshot 2017-09-14 162234.jpg ) in the direction of the first train ( double locomotives with wagons ), connect the wagons with each other and then disconnect train 2 from the wagons.
...

I may be missing something here, but that seems to me to leave the double-loco in the middle of the train? Or does something else happen?

It seems from the screen-shots that you are using UK semaphore signals, but I'm not certain about that. If so, what you are intending is not allowed by the signalling. You will need a "calling-on" signal. Alternatively, if you only ever shunt back out of track 1 towards the blue circle, then a "ground signal" (white disc with a red band) will be all that is needed.

Disregarding that, place a trigger near the blue circle, then using the driver-commands in the command bar, try this sequence, for the commands for train 2.

Wait for trigger - wait for train 1 to enter the trigger. This will allow for any late running by train 1.
Set signal extended state - set the disc signal to proceed. This will over-ride the presence of train1 and force the signal to change.
Couple to train at trigger
Uncouple number 1 - ie uncouple the first vehicle leaving the loco 2 separated from the wagons.
Set signal extended state - set the disc signal back to automatic.
Autodrive to (or whatever commands you are using) - brings loco 2 clear of the train.

And that should be all that is needed...

Edit. I've re-read you post several times. Does train 1, with the double-locos, arrive at Y from the bottom of your picture? ie arrive at the blue circle first, then the red circle? If so, that makes more sense. I'd assumed it arrived from the direction of the red circle. I will try and do a quick mock-up of the situation, using UK signalling, and see if it works...

 

[belgian46]

Hello Bill69 and davidbird,

I will try to improve my explanation by adding some more pictures.

But first - The mechanical signals are BE-designed - and in Belgium trains are driving left. But in this situation, the trains are riding tegenspoor ( Dutch word ), contre-voie ( French ), I don't know the word in English.

At a later stage in the route - the double connected locomotives and wagons are riding on the left side.


Now the screenshots - ( first the screenshot and then the explanation under the screenshot )

1)

2017-09-19 162755A.jpg shows the double connected locomotives with wagons - leaving place X.

2)

screenshot 2017-09-19 163533A.jpg shows the double connected locomotives arriving at place Y on track 2 - and they will pass locomotive 1 with wagons standing on track 1

3)

screenshot 2017-09-19 163556A.jpg shows the passing of the double connected locomotives

4)

screenshot 2017-09-19 163758A.jpg shows the place where the double connected locomotives are halted.


5)

screenshot screenshot 2017-09-14 162418A.jpg shows the same place - without the double connected locomotives and wagons -

6)

screenshot 2017-09-19 164114A.jpg shows an overview - locomotive with wagons still waiting on track 1 and further on the double connected locomotives with wagons.

7)

screenshot 2017-09-19 164351A.jpg : Locomotive + wagons rides on track 1 into the direction of the double connected locomotives + wagons

8)

screenshot 2017-09-19 164427A.jpg : the wagons connected to the locomotive will connect with the wagons connected to the double connected locomotives

9)

2017-09-19 164523A.jpg = here I want to disconnect the locomotive in the purple circle from the wagons and let it ride towards its previous position.

The double connected locomotives with all the wagons are now ready to continue its journey to another place.

Now the question : can this be realised using commands in driver setup or other rule ( added on - for example JS-trf Timetable )?

Kind regards

Kurt :wave:

 

[davidbird]

Hi Kurt

Yes it all makes sense now! In normal UK practice it would be more usual for train1 to reverse back onto the 2nd train, then drive out again. But as you have said that your situation works like that in real life, it can be made to work in Trainz.

 

[belgian46]

Hi Kurt

Yes it all makes sense now! In normal UK practice it would be more usual for train1 to reverse back onto the 2nd train, then drive out again. But as you have said that your situation works like that in real life, it can be made to work in Trainz.

Hello davidbird,

Within several sessions of different routes I see the following - wagons ( with and without goods ) are placed on a track and trains ( single or double ) are coming in to pick up the wagons. I can easily reproduce this kind of train action.

Finding a solution for the situation I have discribed in this thread is not so easy to find.

Kind regards

Kurt :wave:

 

[davidbird]

Got it working

Try downloading this https://www.dropbox.com/s/0lwxgztzkto6bn5/Lumber%20test%20session%202.zip?dl=0. I think all you need is either in there, on the DLS or built in to TANE anyway.

The problem was, when I got train2 to couple onto train1, it lost all it's commands. I have had to use a session Rule to check for a consist with both locos, add more driver commands to train1 to get it to decouple the last vehicle, which is train2's loco. I then used a second check consist rule to check for just the train2 loco on its own, and again add new driver commands to get it to run back onto track1 before letting what is now train1+2 to depart.

On the route in that link. I've done it with UK stock and colour light signals, as that is what I'm used to. You should see that SIG 003 changes from just a red, to a red and 2 whites. The red means there is a train ahead, but the 2 whites mean the driver can proceed carefully, and be ready to stop.

Hope this makes things clear, if not, ask again...

Cheers
David

Edit; I have changed the link, for a version now using slightly simpler driver commands

 

[Bill69]

Got it working [snip]


The problem was, when I got train2 to couple onto train1, it lost all it's commands. [snip]
Cheers
David

Yes it will lose all driver commands, Trainz has never been able to operate under AI control with two drivers in one train.
Now I can see what belgian46 is doing it would be much easier to uncouple the single loco after loading and back the double header on to the wagons that are sitting in the forestry siding.

Cheers,
Bill69

 

[davidbird]

... it would be much easier to uncouple the single loco after loading and back the double header on to the wagons that are sitting in the forestry siding.

Indeed it would, but as Kurt says

...
My intention is ( as it happens in reality ) , to drive the second train with wagons ... in the direction of the first train ( double locomotives with wagons ), connect the wagons with each other and then disconnect train 2 from the wagons.

...

That is what I've tried to do in the example in the link. I think it works ok...

This method does not depend on timetables, is totally flexible with regard to the composition of either train, and within limits, the length of the trains.

 

[belgian46]

Got it working

Try downloading this https://www.dropbox.com/s/0lwxgztzkto6bn5/Lumber test session 2.zip?dl=0. I think all you need is either in there, on the DLS or built in to TANE anyway.

The problem was, when I got train2 to couple onto train1, it lost all it's commands. I have had to use a session Rule to check for a consist with both locos, add more driver commands to train1 to get it to decouple the last vehicle, which is train2's loco. I then used a second check consist rule to check for just the train2 loco on its own, and again add new driver commands to get it to run back onto track1 before letting what is now train1+2 to depart.

On the route in that link. I've done it with UK stock and colour light signals, as that is what I'm used to. You should see that SIG 003 changes from just a red, to a red and 2 whites. The red means there is a train ahead, but the 2 whites mean the driver can proceed carefully, and be ready to stop.

Hope this makes things clear, if not, ask again...

Cheers
David

Edit; I have changed the link, for a version now using slightly simpler driver commands

Hello David,

Thank you for fnding the solution for me - very much appreciated. :Y:

At this moment, I'm downloading the necessary assets from the DLS.

After installation - I will first have a look at your lumber test route + session 2.

I will report ASAP.

Kind regards

Kurt :wave:

 

[parryjc]

Hi David,

Think I'm loosing it ...............my mind that is.:hehe:
Simple answer to my terminal station might be to uncouple loco, cover coupler so cannot be reconnected to stock. Send down the station shunt to move stock...........
John P.

 

[parryjc]

Hi David,

Followed this with interest, as I'm thinking it might be v.useful in the following situation.

Passenger Train drives into bay or terminal platform of station. Station shunt Loco couples to the rear of that consit. Original Loco at terminal end is uncoupled and station shut moves out with the stock, thus freeing up the Loco at the bay platforms dead end and giving it clear road out...
All on AI ;D
Have downloaded your lumber test run anyway, will see what I can make of it in the above scenario.:udrool:
thanks
John P.

 

[Kennilworth]

Hi John P.

If you decouple the original loco before the shunter couples up then it will work just fine. I use this method at King's Cross on the ECML route and have never had any issues with it.

Regards

Brian

 

[davidbird]

As Brian says, decouple the original loco before the shunting loco couples to the rear of the stock. The trick is to issue an "decouple" command, but then do not move the loco. A decouple command is only completed when the loco moves away from the stock. If you don't move the train engine, the decouple command is not completed, and even if the shunter gives the stock a bit of a shove, it won't recouple.
As there are never 2 locos actually coupled to the same train, there are no problems with driver commands getting lost.
Hopefully this is clear.

 

[belgian46]

Hello David,

Thank you for fnding the solution for me - very much appreciated. :Y:

At this moment, I'm downloading the necessary assets from the DLS.

After installation - I will first have a look at your lumber test route + session 2.

I will report ASAP.

Kind regards

Kurt :wave:

Hello David,

I have been busy impleting your solution into my specific situation.

Everthing functions OK until the wagons ( Lumber ) connect with each other. Let me explain

Here is the situation within the session of the route

In my first driver setup there are 7 drivers all riding with different trains and different destinations.

2) The drivers Bald and Guriga are involved with the transport of the Lumber wagons - Bald = driver of the HLD55 ( double connected ) and Guriga of the SNCBserie82

3) The second driver setup ( driver setup1 ) has only Guriga involved

When the lumber wagons connect with each other all the commands disappear, except of 2 drivers. I know it is all about details, but do you have an idea what could be going wrong?

Extra info : when driver setup1 is activated, the wait for 5 seconds is executed, but when the couple command ( connect lumberwagon nr 20 with other lumberwagon nr 12 ) is executed, all other commands disappear.

Kind regards

Kurt :wave:

 

[stagecoach]

Place a driveable lorry/car on some invisible track with a named TM. When double header reaches X use driver command move to train at TM to put train driver in vehicle. Now couple to train, once uncoupled you can move the driver back. Post message and wait for message and clear commands can be used to tell single engine when to couple and again for the driver to move back.

Double header

Drive to TM X
Post message 1
Move to train at TM Veh
Wait for message and clear 2
Move to train at TM X

Train continues with commands.

Single engine

Wait for message and clear 1
couple to train at TM Y
change direction
uncouple
post message 2

train continues with commands

This set up allows the trains to operate only when it gets a message, times don't matter, it can be early or late, the message is the trigger.

 

[belgian46]

Place a driveable lorry/car on some invisible track with a named TM. When double header reaches X use driver command move to train at TM to put train driver in vehicle. Now couple to train, once uncoupled you can move the driver back. Post message and wait for message and clear commands can be used to tell single engine when to couple and again for the driver to move back.

Double header

Drive to TM X
Post message 1
Move to train at TM Veh
Wait for message and clear 2
Move to train at TM X

Train continues with commands.

Single engine

Wait for message and clear 1
couple to train at TM Y
change direction
uncouple
post message 2

train continues with commands

This set up allows the trains to operate only when it gets a message, times don't matter, it can be early or late, the message is the trigger.

Hello Keith,

Thank you for your solution - also very much appreciated :Y:

Ok - I have never used this kind of setup before - so time for a new learning phase

I will report ASAP

Kind regards

Kurt :wave:

 

[davidbird]

Hello David,

I have been busy impleting your solution into my specific situation.

Everthing functions OK until the wagons ( Lumber ) connect with each other. Let me explain

Here is the situation within the session of the route
...
When the lumber wagons connect with each other all the commands disappear, except of 2 drivers. I know it is all about details, but do you have an idea what could be going wrong?

Extra info : when driver setup1 is activated, the wait for 5 seconds is executed, but when the couple command ( connect lumberwagon nr 20 with other lumberwagon nr 12 ) is executed, all other commands disappear.

Kind regards

Kurt :wave:

I think what is happening is you do end up with 2 drivers on the same train; the second one will lose all his or her commands. You don't say which of Bald's commands is the one where the coupling process starts.
For this to work the "Drive to red circle trackmark" must be the last in Bald's sequence. Similarly, the "couple to" command must be the last in Guriga's sequence.
The first "Check Consist" Rule (checks for consist with all 3 locos) then adds more commands to Bald's sequence, the first is decouple the last vehicle; the rest can be anything you like. The 2nd Check Consist Rule (checks for just the single loco on its own) adds the rest of the commands to Guriga's schedule.

In your screenshot you don't have any more rules as child rules of the 2nd check consist rule.

I think that must be where you are going wrong.

Actually I quite like Stagecoach's solution. It is better, as it doesn't involve session rules, but not so elegant as you will need an invisible train on invisible track.

Edit: Try this "session 3" for a version of Stagecoach's idea, with messages. It should be obvious which is supposed to be the invisible train... https://www.dropbox.com/s/50ayt07y88gv8w5/Lumber%20test%20session%203.cdp?dl=0