Can I replace track Inside of Tunnel?

[AnalogOldguy]

Hello,

I am a real beginner in trying to doing things in Surveyor. I downloaded a nice (very small) layout named NSW Adamstown to Belmont BHP, which to me is outstanding when it comes to a realistic look. I am using 2006, build 3335, SP1 (for this route).

A few textures are missing. Tried to email the author about that, but no luck.That's a different problem.

My problem is this. There is a very short tunnel at a key point in the route. Originally, the tunnel worked, but the view became a little messy when going through. Then I noticed that there was an upgraded version of this tunnel (one track).

I'm not sure how I did it, (this was months ago) but I somehow 'replaced' the tunnel with the newer version. Ever since then, the train crashes when going through that tunnel.(Looking in there, I can see that a short piece of dark tunnel track is missing inside the tunnel. So far, I cannot get a piece of track into the tunnel!

Can anyone help me on this? Thanks very much. Bob P.

 

[gfisher]

It would help if you mentioned the name and kuid of the tunnel in question so we can see if our copies are faulty too. In general you can change the track in a tunnel simply by modifying the kuid number specified by the creator for the attached track to one of your own choosing.

 

[cascaderailroad]

In wireframe view mode you should be able to see if there is missing, or not joined track. Realign the track, or join it, or simlply delete the problematic track segment, and replace the track. Making sure that the gradient is correct, and end and beginning spline points are not higher or lower than the topography of the land. You can lay track right through a tunnel, right on top, or slightly above the original tunnel track, by holding the shift key when laying track. Make sure the dirrection of track, is layed in the same dirrection as other track at nearby spline points. Viewing a freight car from above on the track shows red/green arrows of the dirrection of the track.

This is where a handwritten log book can help, as you can write down the, track name, tunnel name, spline heights at each end of the tunnel, in case you really get things fouled up, and want to revert back to the original.

 

[AnalogOldguy]

Hello Fellows,

Thanks for your responses so fast! And I have to tell Cascaderailroad that I am just a novice here, trying to straighten out somebody else's route I downloaded (with all the original dependencies)... (the tunnel in particular), I used to be able to get through it all the way when I first ran it, (with some visual abnormalities).

Then I most likely screwed it up by downloading an updated version of the tunnel and disabling the original (I don't remember exactly how I did it a month ago).

One thing I know is there are a lot of things named UK Tunnel by Bloodnok in this route. Here it is ....

UK Tunnel Grassplane 1 60850:28991
UK Tunnel Grassplane 2 60850:28992 (I made a note that these two are built-in)

UK Tunnel Grass Spline 60850:37992

UK_Tunnel_1track_stone 2:60850:28903:2
UK Tunnel 1track stone 2:60850:37903:2

I just rebuilt the assets.tdx because my CMP was locking up just today after re-downloading the original...UK_Tunnel_1track_stone 2:60850:28903:1
(which is on the list of dependencies for this route on the DLS)

Things got a little better after that, I can make it quite a way into the tunnel now, and it seems to be curving, but I am seeing the scenery above me, like the tunnel walls aren't there. Eventually, I come out the other side and then derail.

I believe these are all part of a tunnel kit pack. When you download the tunnel you get dependencies. Any more suggestions would be appreciated. Just remember I am a total Surveyor novice. Not an experienced expert like many of you must be! Thanks much.

 

[escafeld]

If the tunnel is straight, you can lay track through it and connect to the track at either end after disconnecting it from the tunnel. You then make sure that the spline points are the same height as the tunnel's. Place the track's spline points near the tunnels and then drop the tunnel slightly until its track cannot be seen. Once it is hidden, manouver the track's spline points over the tunnels.

As mentioned in the Tips and Tricks thread.

Dave.

 

[AnalogOldguy]

Ok fellows. You have given me an introduction to an area of Surveyor I have never seen, the wireframe mode when you press F9.

I will read the Tips and Tricks thread Escafeld mentioned.

I did go into the wireframe mode. At each entrance, there is one piece of MP_Tunneltrack dark, which I think is an Auran built-in.(these pieces cannot be deleted, you get a dink sound!) I saw the dark walls and a lighter gray floor of the tunnel. I did not see any more track in there!

In real world terms, the tunnel is only about 400 ft.long (with a slight curve), going under a line of NZ houses and a road with cars. There are three yellow arrows with circles at the entrances, with lines extending down into the tunnel, and a few widely spaced yellow arrows along the full length, extending from the surface of the hill down into the tunnel floor.

Using the shift key, I attempted laying some track, but it appeared on the on the surface of the hill. I opened up the Advanced window and attempted to lower the track, seeing numbers go into minus numbers, but the track didn't seem to go down at all. later, I did manage to connect new track to the Auran track down inside the tunnel, but it instantly rose to the top of the hill. Tried a few things, but unable to get the track down. I also did manage to find the spline heights down inside the tunnel,, But after this was confusion! Much to learn,....

Actually, being the first time doing any of this, I am only guessing about what I'm doing. I'll have to study more about this before knowing what I am doing!

What gets me, is that the trains could run through this tunnel safely (with the slight visual glitch) the many times I first ran it. Maybe I should download and commit the layout again? Can that be done?

Another thing I thought of is, maybe I should download all the packs related to this 'tunnel kit'? Maybe some parts are missing. I'm pretty sure the roof is missing, since on my partial ride through, I can see the trees etc. above.

Thanks to you all! Bob P.

 

[cascaderailroad]

track height up/down tool

When you lay track over a mountain, and the track stays on top of the mountain, and follows the terrain of the mountain...if you use the track height adjustment, and tug up and down on the track spline points at both ends of the tunnel...you will see that the track now sinks below the terrain and follows a straight line right through the mountain.

the "Dink" sound is telling you that in track mode, the item you are trying to delete, is under another tool tab, such as splines, buildings, scenery...etc...If you go to the proper tab, it will delete. Different tabs control different assets.

You have gotten my curiosity going on this route...so I am downloading it to see what you are talking about...did it one time work ? Or did you break it ? You went an busted it, dint you...if it aint busted don't fix it...only kidding...will get back to you after I see the route.
===========================================================================================================
This problem is at "Fernliegh" ... correct...I seem to see several pieces of track laying on top of the hill...and no track insde the non-tracked tunnel, I will try to analize the sitchy-ation tomorrow. Looks like the tunnel and track could be replaced easily enough though, by deleting all of them, and inserting your own tunnel and track.
===========================================================================================================
There certainly is alot of things going on at that tunnel, assets of all kinds, backdrops, grass splines, grass embankments, whew...non-connected track...will get back to you.

 

[AnalogOldguy]

I'm just sitting here on the sidelines....

(If Cascaderailroad can't figure out how to fix it, really fat chance that I'll ever do it!)

Patience is a virtue, somebody once said ....

If he can't do it, I may have to do the 'put a in a new tunnel' thing they are talking about ... and I don't even know how to do that!

Would you believe the tunnel actually worked when I first got it? Well, the train could get through it! ... Nice vista on the other side, overlooking the NZ houses.

Up at Belmont, there is even a house on fire with three flashing fire trucks. First time I ever saw that. I'll be back ...:hehe:

 

[cascaderailroad]

Basically in wireframe mode I pulled all the tunnel grass splines, houses, trees...etc... about 50 scale foot out of the way...and played with the tunnel, connecting tracks, and such to the tunnel track...if you don't "SAVE" at the end of your session, the track and spline point changes, and things you moved and played with, will not permanently change the route. And THEN, when you restart the route next time you play it, it won't be all messed up with experimentation.

I would simply slide the grass splines out of the way...and rejoin the tracks...or replace the tunnel and tracks...it's really easy to delete a track or tunnel, and even easier to slide a tunnel and track into positions, so they click together.

Play with the changes, and movements of the track, tunnel, grass splines, and houses...and DON'T save...then at a much later date, when you are more experienced, and feel confident enough to save your changes, THEN you can save the route.

You will not believe just how much you will learn quickly, in a very short amount of time ! You will succeed...through trial and error.

If you really get things fouled up, all out of kilter...you could delete the route completely...and re-download it all over again.

Did it work without derailing originally ???

Personally I would NOT delete the route...but instead use it as a creative Learning Tool for laying track, and tunnels in surveyor.

 

[angelah]

Save out

Basically in wireframe mode I pulled all the tunnel grass splines, houses, trees...etc... about 50 scale foot out of the way...and played with the tunnel, connecting tracks, and such to the tunnel track...if you don't "SAVE" at the end of your session, the track and spline point changes, and things you moved and played with, will not permanently change the route. And THEN, when you restart the route next time you play it, it won't be all messed up with experimentation.

I would simply slide the grass splines out of the way...and rejoin the tracks...or replace the tunnel and tracks...it's really easy to delete a track or tunnel, and even easier to slide a tunnel and track into positions, so they click together.

Play with the changes, and movements of the track, tunnel, grass splines, and houses...and DON'T save...then at a much later date, when you are more experienced, and feel confident enough to save your changes, THEN you can save the route.

You will not believe just how much you will learn quickly, in a very short amount of time ! You will succeed...through trial and error.

If you really get things fouled up, all out of kilter...you could delete the route completely...and re-download it all over again.

Did it work without derailing originally !

Personally I would NOT delete the route...but instead use it as a creative Learning Tool for laying track, and tunnels in surveyor.

All good advice. But why not save the route out as an experimental layout and play with that? Once you have it right save as the original.
I do exactly that if I am not sure what the outcome of scenery or track laying is going to be or if I need to alter a lot of things but want to keep the original 'just in case' or if my fiddling doesn't work.

It sounds as if whoever made the route was also experimenting with lots of splines, both scenic and rail, and somehow they accidentally got buried when the ground was raised and forgotten about. Going to wireframe show any buried assets so the can be removed.

Angela

 

[Red_Rattler]

Nice vista on the other side, overlooking the NZ houses.

I haven't got TRS2006 (nor plan to), but why would someone use NZ houses, when it's an Australian route, as I'm sure their are Australian houses that are available?

This is not my website, but might be of some use. (Click on brown writing, you may need to copy & paste the links): Details of Belmont Branch. Details & pictures of Redhead Tunnel (better known as Fernleigh Tunnel)

On a semi-related note:

The Newcastle Cycleways Movement has successfully lobbied for the tunnel to be shored up and strengthed. It now has a paved cycleway and lighting.

Should have been used for a light railway :'(

 

[AnalogOldguy]

Hello back to you, Red_Rattler,

Well, I can tell you this, in Trainz 2006 SP1 (US version), the NZ houses are under the Australian region! And there are a lot of them! (unless I obtained some extra in the route disks I have).

I have even seen them in U.S. routes. They are actually very nice houses, with working chimneys with smoke, and nicely made 3d porches and so on. They are just very nice houses! And yet they say they are low-poly!

I went the link you gave of the real route, and was very sad to see that there is really very little left of it! In my mind, I saw this railroad as still functioning! Now, I am thinking that maybe a lot of the routes in Trainz must exist only in fond memories!

Thanks for the great info. Now I will always remember this when I drive the route!

Best wishes, Bob P.

 

[Red_Rattler]

I went the link you gave of the real route, and was very sad to see that there is really very little left of it! In my mind, I saw this railroad

Railroad = That's the problem, this railway has now been replaced with buses and cars.

Sad to see that there is really very little left = Believe it or not, it's not officially closed, although physically closed! See Formally closed lines

That's how one of the most awful transport ministers (Michael Costa) was allowed to say in parliament that he didn't close the Casino - Murwillumbah Line. It was closed because it is in a seat head by an opposite party of the party in power, & this party tries to reduce and/or cut services to seats not held by them.

 

[AnalogOldguy]

Well people, I have learned much from all of you here. This will get me off to a good experimenters' start. I have printed this thread out for reference.

I have already made a 'Swiss' tunnel (unbelievably easy, set one side of the tunnel drag a white line through the mountain, click again to set the opposite tunnel entrance). So easy!

This UK tunnel seems to be a lot harder, you don't just drag a white line through the mountain!!! I'll get it eventually.. or I'll just use a simpler tunnel!

I would like to ask Cascaderailroad... Did you actually get a smoothly functioning tunnel and track after you moved everything over and worked on it ?

Also Cascade, Do you believe that this looks like a completed route? It looks mostly complete to me, except for some missing ground textures (which leaves a lot of exposed terrain). But I also do remember a couple of small bridges also missing over streams. Do you also see missing ground textures like I do? I see that there is a session for this route.

When I check this layout with the CMP, I come up with exactly two missing dependencies.. KUID2:61119:38809:1 and KUID2:68787:21016:2. if anyone can help me on these.

(Added later) I am thinking that 61119 is Natvander, or Cardiff Workshops number. and I found a thread about this route today. Hope I can put the link in properly here.. Bob P.:Y:



http://forums.auran.com/trainz/showthread.php?t=28862&highlight=2:61119:38809:1

 

[gfisher]

Hi there AnalogOldGuy,

I just got a chance to check out the tunnel system in question. It worked just fine for me in TRS2006. It is a kit of parts, which is a bit confusing at first. The tunnel entrance is a scenery object with attached track. You place two of these (obviously) some distance apart. You then connect them with a tunnel spline bit which has no track attached. This means that you must connect the two innermost spline points with track of your choice which then follows the curve, if any, of the tunnel. Finally attach your regular track to the outermost two spline points at each end and you are good to go. You need to use seperate digholes with this system.

I think that somehow one of the inner spline point connections became unattached and hence the derailment.

Try playing around with this a bit on a flat test board and you should see what is going on here. Then you can go back and fix the problem.

 

[AnalogOldguy]

Thanks Gfisher, for some added great tunnel advice!

Especially the excellent suggestion on trying to build some tunnels (using this system) on an empty experimental baseboard!

I do see a couple of yellow arrows spaced widely out at the top of the hill pointing down into the length of interior of the tunnel. Maybe these are the interior spline points already?

Quote: You need to use seperate digholes with this system.

This is the part of your answer I don't understand (but maybe I don't have to for this situation)

I will be working on this, but I will have to be in a relaxed mood and ready to focus on it. I'll post here if I ever accomplish it!

I really want to see this route looking and running properly. By the way, there is a link to a thread (I put in a few posts back), which contains a link (put in by the author of this route to download missing dependencies for this route).

Thanks again, Bob P.

 

[gfisher]

A dighole in Trainz is just an object that when placed on a 10 meter grid square cuts a "hole" in the surface 10 meters square, so the train doesn't give the appearance of running into a rock wall inside the tunnel. Some tunnels have them attached to the tunnel object, but this limits the orientation of the tunnel portal to 90 degree increments. Leaving them as seperate elements to be applied where needed gives greater flexibilty to tunnel portal orientation, although sometimes quite a bit of fiddling around is needed to nake sure the hole is correctly concealed in the finished work.

There are several on the DLS.

 

[AnalogOldguy]

Don't Succeed? Try, Try Again !!

OK,

Here is what (sort of) happened with my first try at fixing the tunnel. Number one mistake was I didn't use my printout of this thread as my guide! Just a bunch of facts I thought I remembered in my head!

I tried first connecting some of the Auran dark single tunnel track to the two tunnels entrances (in wireframe mode F9). Couldn't do manage to do that.

Then tried deleting all the tunnel parts and splines and planes. (should have moved them aside). Didn't move any houses, roads etc... I can't remember if I removed the interior of the tunnel right away. Then I tried using the gray track used in the route. I managed to connect it going all the way through under the houses and everything. And it kept the curve!

I took a train and drove it all the way through. It did not derail. Went back into surveyor and I realized that the track rose up in the air about six feet high. I tried to 'tug' downward at the spline points outside the tunnel. Also tried Advanced raise lower spline. Couldn't get the track down. And besides that the interior of the tunnel is not there!

Failure number one! and counting! I'm not going to report every failure here! But at least I am trying some different things. Thanks to you people! Maybe next, some rainy night I'll try building a tunnel with those parts on an empty baseboard!

See you later! Robert.:udrool:

 

[Tiger313]

Don't know about you, Robert, but I love the fidgeting around untill I get it juuust right! At some point you figure out all the quirks and that's where things get a bit easier. I'm sure you will, too.

 

[AnalogOldguy]

Dear Tiger313,

Maybe you love fidgeting around till you get things juuuuuuuust right!

But I hate going nuuuutz while everything is getting all screwwwwwed up!

Including my brainnnnnnn!!

I did manage to get the track down to a proper level using "smooth spline height" (just guesswork).

Now, where I removed the tunnel parts, I have light blue nothingness showing through the baseboard. Anybody know how to cover up light blue nothingness??

A surveyor I never wanna be! If this tunnel ever again bears any resemblence to reality, it will be a miracle! Thank You. Robert