Campain to retain full dls for 04/06 and fellas lets keep this one clean

[paulhobbs]

The issue is not the content that resides on the DLS, but the way the numerous versions of Trainz interact with the DLS. Any changes to the DLS it seems, require each and every trainz-build to have custom code written and tested. The costs of maintaining the functionality for every Trainz version ever made, going forward indefinitely, is what has prompted Auran's decision.

That's exactly the reason that was given for cutting off the DLS from the content managers of TRS2004/6 which to my mind seems more logical than a cunning plan to extract a few more dollars out of your pocket (Auran don't do cunning). Not that the people who are determined to see a conspiracy everywhere they look are going to believe it, but what the hell this thread is a lot more entertaining than building new models.

At least two of us seem to have understood what's going on, only about another 3000 to go...

Paul

 

[paulkay21]

That's exactly the reason that was given for cutting off the DLS from the content managers of TRS2004/6 which to my mind seems more logical than a cunning plan to extract a few more dollars out of your pocket (Auran don't do cunning). Not that the people who are determined to see a conspiracy everywhere they look are going to believe it, but what the hell this thread is a lot more entertaining than building new models.

At least two of us seem to have understood what's going on, only about another 3000 to go...

Paul

....although some of us are just enjoying running TS2010 with SnC on a low spec laptop (that TC3 brought to a standstill) and wondering why everyone doesn't want to enjoy the benefits of the newer version.

Oh well. Back to my trains.

Cheers

Paul

 

[wholbr]

That's exactly the reason that was given for cutting off the DLS from the content managers of TRS2004/6 which to my mind seems more logical than a cunning plan to extract a few more dollars out of your pocket (Auran don't do cunning). Not that the people who are determined to see a conspiracy everywhere they look are going to believe it, but what the hell this thread is a lot more entertaining than building new models.

At least two of us seem to have understood what's going on, only about another 3000 to go...

Paul

Well said paul, make that three of us. now only 2999 Trainzers to go.

With greatest respect to all views on the thread.

Bill

 

[Dinorius_Redundicus]

The issue is not the content that resides on the DLS, but the way the numerous versions of Trainz interact with the DLS. Any changes to the DLS it seems, require each and every trainz-build to have custom code written and tested. The costs of maintaining the functionality for every Trainz version ever made, going forward indefinitely, is what has prompted Auran's decision.

regards
Charles

Charles,

Well, maybe it is just me, but I still see a contradiction there. How is freshly-added (old version) content any different from, or more expensive to keep, than existing (old version) content on the DLS?

If writing the software to make new versions of Trainz interact with old version content is so expensive, then how can they justify their decision not to remove all the old stuff? I'd guess 85%(?) of the DLS must be '04/'06 or earlier assets and that mountain of content will always require that new versions of Trainz be able to "interact" with it. I can see how banning fresh uploads might stop the mountain from growing, but given its size, I can't really see how this move is going to help Auran very much in any reasonable time frame.

 

[pommie]

Its not so much the content, although error free content will be nice, it is that each version of trainz, including the non-English versions, needs separate programs (or subroutines) to handle it, at the moment when they upgrade the dls all of these programs need to be upgraded and maintained, and I can just imagine trying to find a bug thats found its way in, where to start looking
Auran are reducing their workload by stopping supporting old, and no longer profitable, versions.
One thing that has not been mentioned is that by reducing their costs they should be able to keep the cost of future versions that little bit lower

Cheers David

 

[Vern]

Just to clarify on the performance issue. Running a TS2010 route in Driver is not an issue on the laptop or main PC (the latter I would add can run Crysis, GTA4 and COD WOW2 maxed out), it's when you switch to Surveyor the slideshow starts. Would also add that a route built in TRS2006 then imported to TS2010 and opened in Surveyor doesn't seem to display this propensity. So something, somewhere in Surveyor appears to have undergone a change around the time of TC3/TS2009 (the latter of which also provides a slideshow building from scratch in Surveyor) which has resulted in the degraded performance.

If NeverWhatever aren't prepared to at least look at this then I'm quite happy to build in TRS2006 and process the route(s) through TS2010 but in order for that to happen why, from September, can't I continue using TRS2006 CMP to access the content. Ultimately it's just an FTP server with a front end and a dependency cross check. How hard can it be to have a sub routine that handles the interface according to the version - given that even TS2010 users are going to be downloading by and large < TRS2006 assets, warts 'n' all.

I can understand no more uploads of stuff created in or for older versions but like I say, for routes at least there is a workaround for that.

 

[stovepipe]

Charles,

Well, maybe it is just me, but I still see a contradiction there. How is freshly-added (old version) content any different from, or more expensive to keep, than existing (old version) content on the DLS?

If writing the software to make new versions of Trainz interact with old version content is so expensive, then how can they justify their decision not to remove all the old stuff? I'd guess 85%(?) of the DLS must be '04/'06 or earlier assets and that mountain of content will always require that new versions of Trainz be able to "interact" with it. I can see how banning fresh uploads might stop the mountain from growing, but given its size, I can't really see how this move is going to help Auran very much in any reasonable time frame.

Deane,

It's about the process around uploading, error checking, and the like, rather than the maintenence of assets on the DLS, or how they work in Trainz. When you think of all the different versions of Trainz there have been, the effort must be significant in rolling out a change to the DLS upload protocols. That is where the costs are, and it is a job that doesn't add any value in terms of sales.

Come September I expect we will see the start of the clean-up of the DLS, which many have wanted for a while now. If an asset is error-free or easily fixable in TS09/10 it will stay, otherwise it seems probably not. There aren't that many assets that cannot be fixed.

It's worth remembering this is all about improving the experience for new and current trainzers, moving the game forward, and securing the business. We may not all agree, but it is what has been decided. How this sits with individuals depends, I suspect, on how long they've been around for and their attitudes to change,.

Anyhow, that's just how I see things according to what I've read.

cheers
Charles

 

[wholbr]

given that even TS2010 users are going to be downloading by and large < TRS2006 assets, warts 'n' all.

That is exactly it Vern, 2010 users are downloading old contents warts and all. For the first time Trainz user who has just bought 2010 this would be a huge disappointment. Over half the content they download to excitedly place in their first route building creation would turn out to be faulty and unusable. After a couple weeks or even days they could be faced with a sea of red on the CMP. Hardly an impression that would encourage you to continue with Trainz or recommend it to your friends.

Therefore changes have to be made, content that cannot be updated to run in the latest versions of Trainz should be removed. That which can (and it would seem from comments that the majority could be) should be updated to run with all versions past and present if that is possible.

As many times stated Auran is not charity it is a business. It has to think of its future profits and where they are going to come from. And that obviously the management thinks is not in the continued support for past products however worthy this may be.

As a side issue, I transferred a route I built in TC3 across to 2010. Apart from one or two splines not showing up I had no problems at all. It now runs in native mode and I certainly have not had the problems experienced when running surveyor. So it could be that Vern's problems lie in the transfer or is a local problem with the software.

With the greatest respect for everyone views.
Bill

 

[Danieldd4]

That is exactly it Vern, 2010 users are downloading old contents warts and all. For the first time Trainz user who has just bought 2010 this would be a huge disappointment.

As many times stated Auran is not charity it is a business. It has to think of its future profits and where they are going to come from. And that obviously the management thinks is not in the continued support for past products however worthy this may be.

With the greatest respect for everyone views.
Bill

Ah so true they are a business and they are in business to make money. Still supporting products that are 6-7 years old will not make them money. I have very little software on my machine that is over about 5 years old. And the oldest computer I have ever had was 5 years old.... I tend to replace computers about every 5 years as well and when that happens most software gets changed out or updated.

The machine I have now is 3 years old and it was kind of low end when I put it together so I am already looking to replace it.

Is it costly to change things over in an every 5 year cycle? yes.... but what hobby is not costly?

just my opinion and 2 cents as well

 

[sparky15]

I get why they are doing what they are doing and understand it. Do they need to, sure. I have zero to gain or loose no matter what they decide. I just think the timing is off.

Computer specs or those who know and still won't upgrade for any reason aside, this forum is just a small percentage of Trainz users. How many more are out there that have no idea this is coming. Train sims are a niche as it is and marketing is pretty non existent.

True, someone buying a title with 06 on it should know better. But, that was the only one on the shelf. The latest and greatest wasn't and even on line orders were back logged due to disc problems. The choice wasn't available to them standing there.

Does Auran owe those people anything, nope. They may owe it to themselves though to give 2010 more time to hit the shelves. Due to marketing and availability it may go a long way in ensuring new users get the latest and greatest as their first copy. Not one that will be binned right away and possible loss of a customer.

Loss of the DLS is not going to sway me from using what I like and I don't expect Auran to cater to me. The sky isn't going to fall. Dermmy nailed my view of the current offering better than I could. It would be great though if TS2011 fixed that and as much as possible was available in one place and error free. I'll wait and see.

In the end they will do what ever they do. I just hope it's not to soon is all.

Pretty much all I have left to say on this.

Dave......

 

[BLACKWATCH]

For those contemplating the setting up of an independent download site, I don't see why this can't be done.
I still run an old "Commodore Amiga A1200 Z4", I can still download loads of programs (games & utilities) for it, mostly from sites that don't charge.

There has been no 'Official' support for the Amiga or any of it's software for over a DECADE, but we 'Amigans' are still going strong.

 

[Sampug394]

...We might even start seeing smaller, higher quality routes instead of ones that run for 200Km through a desert...

Funny, I'm working on an Australian themed, Deserty route that's a good length. And I have another route out for download at MGtrainz that is much shorter. Both of them are of the best Quality I can put into them, and both look pretty darn good compared to what I've seen. Apparently its too bad I'm using an Abundance of this 'Outdated' 04/06 content to detail both though.

Size honestly doesn't matter. It's how much Land work, texturing, and assets go into them which makes up the size in MBs, not the amount of baseboards...

 

[meridious]

For those contemplating the setting up of an independent download site, I don't see why this can't be done.

No offense but it's already being done. I think Trainz Luvr was actually the first.

Ours isn't perfect but it works. It isn't as easy as the dls but it isn't meant to copy or replace it.

 

[BLACKWATCH]

No offense taken Mike , I have used the TPR myself, but just to show a point about content being made for TS2010, I note there
is only 1 item available for it on the TPR.

 

[WindWalkr]

Morning all,

What still puzzles me is that while the vast majority of '04/'06 assets will remain on the DLS and available (which I'm very glad about), somehow it is only the new uploads after Sept. that are viewed as too great a cost or difficulty for Auran to support. These 2 things seem contradictory to me. If they can manage hundreds of thousands of existing old assets, why is it too hard/costly to deal with newly added ones, especially if they are now subjected to the more rigorous checks upon uploading? This hasn't been properly explained here or in the previously closed thread.

Fair enough question. One good answer to this regarding costs has been given above, but I'll pose another one for you to think about-

At some point in the future, we'd like to entirely phase out the old techniques. We don't have a particular deadline for this, but we're aware that the cost to support the old techniques increases with each new version of Trainz. We have two choices here- we can shut down uploads now, and allow the older content to naturally filter out of the system over time- or we could leave uploads enabled, and then one day in the future delete half the DLS content with minimal advance warning, some of which may have been newly created.

In addition to avoiding that second scenario, shutting down the upload support now helps to make it clear that the older versions are no longer supported. I don't expect that this will cause everybody to upgrade overnight, but I do expect that it will add one more pressure to the list of reasons that someone might upgrade.

If NeverWhatever aren't prepared to at least look at this then I'm quite happy to build in TRS2006 ...

It's not a question of whether we're prepared to look at the issue. We've looked, and no problem was found. If you want to ship your computer over here at your cost, we'd be happy to look at your specific hardware and see what we find there- but I'm doubtful that you're interested, for obvious reasons.

kind regards,

chris

 

[crankwhistle]

We all understand that with the progress being made in the computer industry allows for higher levels of graphics simulation and we would all agree that is something that we all would enjoy and would wish to have for ourselves,each and every one of us. however that possibility for a lot of community members is just a bit out of reach at the present time as we are all well aware. I personally don't have that problem, but I do feel for the people that do, and if it was possible would like to have them supported
until they can progress forward to those higher levels of computer power requirements.
To achieve that objective we know that the DLS has up until now accumulated a vast ammount of content that can support them and still allows them to feel part of the community and would keep them connected.
The problem being expressed is that previous content is degradeing the perception of the newer product that is currently being developed because people are adding the previous content which is forceing them into using 'compatibility mode' in order to allow it to function with this previous content, and of course 'Compatibilty Mode' is in no way as efficient in performance as 'Native Mode' It was said Auran was thinking that they 'may' create a 'new DLS' and I think that this is in fact a brilliant idea. If the 'current DLS' was to be left in it's current condition with the content intact that would be the 'bridge' to support the members that are having difficulty progressing at this time, and if you create a 'new DLS' then that would be to support the new product 2009/2010 keeping it simple to understand that if you use older content from the 'previous DLS' in the newer products that there is a
good chance that your performance is bound to be degraded to some degree.
If there is previous content that can be utilized in the newer product 2010 then a copy could be made then modified for 2010 and put it in the 'New DLS'. That way the original is still in the 'current DLS' and the modified content can be put into 'NEW DLS', keeping in mind that 'Native Mode' should be the objective.
------------------------
amigacooke page 55.IBM has its Software Support Lifecycle.
It is easier to discredit than it is to support!, and I will answer your response, and I will use IBM example for this analogy.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
STEP1
**IBM example**
'Customers' have a lot of 'data' that needs to be manipulated in order to produce an end result in the form of easy to read and understand output.
'IBM' creates a 'program' to manipulate that 'data' to produce the result that the customer is looking for, which is easy to read and understand output.
-------------------------
**AURAN example**
'Trainz community members'have a lot of 'content' that needs to be manipulated in order to produce an end result in the form of a graphic simulator that allows them to experience what it would be like to actually
drive a train, running smoothly is very important.

'Auran' creates a program to manipulate the 'communities content' in order to produce an end result in the form of a graphic simulator that allows them to experience what it would be like to actually drive a train, running smoothly is very important.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
STEP2

'IBM' develops a 'new program' that has new features and improvements to improve the efficiency of the 'customers' 'data' produceing better results for the customer.'Customer'purchases the new program in order to obtain these new enhancements.***A plus for both parties.*** the progression continues.
-------------------------
'AURAN' develops a 'new program' that has new features and improvements to improve the efficiency of the 'communities content'produceing better results for the 'Trainz community'.And the community purchases the newer programs to reap the benefits of these enhancements.***a plus for both parties***
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now we are at a point where the enhancements are somewhat ahead of some, if not most of the Trainz community because of the programs need for higher levels of computer proccessing levels and they are feeling a lot of pressure from AURAN who seem to be getting anxious and passing that anxiety onto the Trainz community. The Trainz community provided AURAN with a tremendous amount of content that most certainly enhanced there product to a higher level and showed there loyalty by giving it freely,
entrusting them to put on AURANS servers so that they may be shared by all.
I hope AURAN can provide a 'LOYAL bridge' till they can all catch up without pressurization. You know they will support you AURAN, consider supporting them. you don't have to spend any more time on the previous versions of trainz, concentrate on 2010 and it will all work out.

 

[Scitimar]

Now we are at a point where the enhancements are somewhat ahead of some, if not most of the Trainz community because of the programs need for higher levels of computer proccessing levels and they are feeling a lot of pressure from AURAN who seem to be getting anxious and passing that anxiety onto the Trainz community..

Have to say that I think it's the other way around ... Auran is feeling pressured from users and maybe a bit from the competion . You may wish to read some of the posts in the "Suggestion Boxcar" on these forums to see what I mean . Try this thread for example .... http://forums.auran.com/trainz/showthread.php?t=55694

And basing my opinion on the specs I've seen posted on this forum by users , I feel most can handle quite a bit more than the current itteration of Jet can dish out .


Sci

 

[American_Connections]

Your Words

...or we could leave uploads enabled, and then one day in the future delete half the DLS content with minimal advance warning, some of which may have been newly created.
It's not a question of whether we're prepared to look at the issue. We've looked, and no problem was found....

chris

If you would provide a guideline for 2010, creators would be able to follow the proper procedures for these new assets to be error free (until you change them again).
First just for 2010 because as far as I know there is none, and second for assets made for 04/06 to be compatible for both versions.
As for no problems found, have you looked at your own program! Can you really say there is no problems in 2009 and 2010?

 

[WindWalkr]

If you would provide a guideline for 2010, creators would be able to follow the proper procedures for these new assets to be error free (until you change them again).

Try here. Alternatively, if you want to avoid the detailed technical reading, a good start would be to set the appropriate trainz-build number and run the content in question through Content Manager.

First just for 2010 because as far as I know there is none, and second for assets made for 04/06 to be compatible for both versions.

The above link gives details for TS2009/TS2010. We're not interested in new documentation for the obsolete formats but the old CCG files are the typical port-of-call for people wanting documentation for those versions.

As for no problems found, have you looked at your own program! Can you really say there is no problems in 2009 and 2010?

Please go back and read my comments in context.

kind regards,

chris

 

[ckthomson]

However if we could come up with an alternative way to download stuff it would benefit all of us who cannot afford a brand new computer. Possibly if Auran at least cooperated and gave us a helping hand into setting something similiar to the DLS would be great. For example letting us rip apart the stuff that makes CMP go so we could "connect" it to a new independent DLS and all you would have to do is download a "patch" of some sort from the new 3rd party DLS.

Kind of like private servers for online games? That's an interesting idea, although Auran would have to provide information on how to build a content-check system for each version. Also, how would you propose to ensure that the "independant" dls was the ONLY independant DLS, and that all files and their dependencies were uploaded only to that server?

I don't agree for the simple reason that TRS2004/6 don't work properly with Vista and Win7 unless you know which hoops you have to jump through. Just look at the number of threads on this issue. That's a good reason to let TRS2004/6 die out for a start. What sort of impression does it make when you are told 'oh yes, you have to run all the exes in admin mode and don't install it where Windows wants you to put it because it won't work'.

Paul

From experience, I have found that 04/06 are best installed to "C:\TRSxxxx", where 'xxxx' is replaced with either 2004/2006. This is for a reason not mentioned anywhere in the manual or on the forum : some content has parts with very long filenames - so long that installing to c:\program files\auran\TRSxxxx" would put the path/filenames over the 256-character limit which Windows imposes. This problem is not Vista-specific, but it IS a problem.

Secondly, the only parts of 2004/2006 which needs to be run as administrator are the installer and the launcher. Once the launcher is running in admin mode, all other components are launched with admin privs as well. I have successfully installed/run 2006 on Vista using this method, as well as running 2004 on Win7 using the exact same method.

That's a lot better luck than I have had with 2009 under Win2k, WinXP, Vista, or Win7.