Campain to retain full dls for 04/06 and fellas lets keep this one clean

[pommie]

On the subject about upgrading computers, I gave mine a good clean yesterday, including replacing the thermal paste, the date on my cpu is 2005, that means that it is around 5 years old, a computer that old is just below average, and I had* no trouble running 09 in either mode, that means that if your computer cannot run 09 then it is below the average and cannot be allowed for with up to date software.
And no it was not cutting edge when it was put together,

AMD Athlon X2 4.200 with a Nvidia GeForce 7600GT 256meg card<---<<you cannot even buy these anymore.

While most of us have money problems, Auran are not responsible for them.

By the way, I am in a single income family with an incontinent special needs child, has anyone priced nappies lately, they are around au$2 each (small adult size), and we go through 5/6 a day, you do the math for a years worth, then there is the gloves/wipes/waterproof bedding etc etc, replacing her glasses when she 'loses it' and breaks them, you want sob stories I have most of you beat no contest.

Do I think Auran are ripping me off, or forcing me to upgrade my computer, nope, there are a lot of games I cannot run and would like to.

But my money priorities lay elsewhere, your money priorities lay where you want them to, and thats how it should be, so please give the "I cannot afford to upgrade" a break.

Auran is not a charity <---<< Just a statement of fact, not trolling or flame baiting.

Cheers David

* I have trouble now because I use Linux (Ubuntu) exclusively and the latest updates (to both Ubuntu and Wine) have killed Trainz :'( ah well, I'll keep trying.

 

[Vern]

I tried and at first thought I had succeeded in getting TS2010 to run at a decent FPS in Surveyor mode. However putting together a short test route last week, it was only a matter of time before FPS/performance again deteriorated to an unuseable level. Before anyone suggests it is because I'm running TS2010 on a laptop, yes that's true but the same machine runs TRS2006 and other graphic intensive applications quite satisfactorily. Even on the main desktop PC which is a bit of a powerhouse, while TS2010 runs fine in Driver Mode, enter Surveyor to set up a session and routes such as ECML or Niddertalbahn struggle in a slideshow.

I would repeat again, I bought TS2010 and didn't mind upgrading. I would love to build routes in TS2010 and take advantage of all the additional built in material, but I can't. By Auran's own admission prior to release it seems they were struggling to get TS2010 to run on 32 bit systems at all. This alone should sound warning bells that something has gone a bit awry in a programme, stripped down to the basic level the overall appearance and functionality is little changed from those earlier versions. If this was Trainz 2 with some Crysis standard graphics I could understand, but it's not. When I paint a terrain texture or place a scene in TRS2006 the same texture or scene looks no different in TS2010 (or for that matter Trainz CE).

I have actually followed your upgrade path purchasing TC3, TS2009, TS2010 oh and S&C2009 plus FCT's so Auran have had a wad of money out of me over the last couple of years, only to find myself relegated to the status of a "former" customer because of some invisible change that has rendered the latest version unuseable. From September I'm going to have to faff about with FTP to download assets which there will be little point putting in TRS2006 built routes for other than personal use as everyone else will have difficulty or impossibility getting them.

As another motoring analogy, If I buy a car from my local Vauxhall dealer they are not going to turn me away if I'm still taking it to them 7 or 8 years later for the annual service and MOT test.

Against that background, I feel I must put my name to the petition to keep full download access for heritage users and can I respectfully suggest you need to get your programmer(s) looking to solve the optimisation and performance issues which have plagued the series for many since TC3, as I know I'm not the only one with these problems.

 

[Klinger]

I say we need to set up a network of sites dedicated to carry on the legacy of TRS2006 and below.

Locomotives, buildings, trees. We need to preserve the content somewhere and somehow. Perhaps a thread could serve as a database of what KUID's can be found and where.

If Auran will not listen, then we need to fight for ourselves.

I Create for 2006 because its far easier then TC. I am still going to experiment with TC with my latest loco, but I do not expect to upgrade and start to creating for 2010, and even buy 2010.

I won't, I can't afford it, and I don't think my computer can stand it.

 

[MrScott2006]

I say we need to set up a network of sites dedicated to carry on the legacy of TRS2006 and below.

Locomotives, buildings, trees. We need to preserve the content somewhere and somehow. Perhaps a thread could serve as a database of what KUID's can be found and where.

If Auran will not listen, then we need to fight for ourselves.

I Create for 2006 because its far easier then TC. I am still going to experiment with TC with my latest loco, but I do not expect to upgrade and start to creating for 2010, and even buy 2010.

I won't, I can't afford it, and I don't think my computer can stand it.

I will help anyway I can. I have time to spare. PM me if you need my help.

 

[Scitimar]

.........
When I paint a terrain texture or place a scene in TRS2006 the same texture or scene looks no different in TS2010 (or for that matter Trainz CE).

Hi Vern

It's only natural that this would happen if you're using a ground texture built for pre 2009/2010 versions in 2009/2010 . Ground textures for 2009/10 are expected to follow a certain format to get the best results i.e. 2048x2048 with a normal map , this higher resolution looks great when the diffuse map is correctly tiled and of a suitable scale .. and getting this right is no easy task . Early trainz versions used a 128x128 bitmap so please explain to me how you expect them to look any different ??

Ditto for scenery items .. The same rules for construction apply , if you build to old standards and you'll see no improvement in 2010.

................
If this was Trainz 2 with some Crysis standard graphics
.......

I can dream can't I

 

[Vern]

Hi Vern

SNIP . Early trainz versions used a 128x128 bitmap so please explain to me how you expect them to look any different ??

Ditto for scenery items .. The same rules for construction apply , if you build to old standards and you'll see no improvement in 2010.


SNIP

Exactly, I don't, but the performance is far slower with the same textures painted in TS2010 than TRS2006 (and the TS2009 prefixed textures are even worse). Anyhow to me the problem is real and a valid reason to object to the severe downgrade in service to Auran (or NeverWhatever's) customers.

 

[WindWalkr]

By Auran's own admission prior to release it seems they were struggling to get TS2010 to run on 32 bit systems at all. This alone should sound warning bells that something has gone a bit awry in a programme, stripped down to the basic level the overall appearance and functionality is little changed from those earlier versions.

You're making the mistake of assuming that it's a code change that caused our difficulties with 32-bit Windows. In reality, it was the size of the routes and associated content that was problematic for us.

In order to release the content that we wanted on a 32-bit OS, we had to introduce significant new memory optimizations in TS2010.

The end result is better code, and better content.

As another motoring analogy, If I buy a car from my local Vauxhall dealer they are not going to turn me away if I'm still taking it to them 7 or 8 years later for the annual service and MOT test.

True enough. Pay us $30k for the game and $1k/yr for the annual service and then we'll talk

kind regards,

chris

 

[Gandalf0444]

I say we need to set up a network of sites dedicated to carry on the legacy of TRS2006 and below.

Locomotives, buildings, trees. We need to preserve the content somewhere and somehow. Perhaps a thread could serve as a database of what KUID's can be found and where.

If Auran will not listen, then we need to fight for ourselves.

I Create for 2006 because its far easier then TC. I am still going to experiment with TC with my latest loco, but I do not expect to upgrade and start to creating for 2010, and even buy 2010.

I won't, I can't afford it, and I don't think my computer can stand it.

I will throw my hand in, and say lets try for something here.

 

[Scitimar]

Exactly, I don't, but the performance is far slower with the same textures painted in TS2010 than TRS2006 (and the TS2009 prefixed textures are even worse).

Maybe the code improvments in 2009/10 are looking for content produced to the current standards to give the best game performance ... this certainly works for me .

 

[American_Connections]

Idea

...However if we could come up with an alternative way to download stuff it would benefit all of us who cannot afford a brand new computer. Possibly if Auran at least cooperated and gave us a helping hand into setting something similiar to the DLS would be great. For example letting us rip apart the stuff that makes CMP go so we could "connect" it to a new independent DLS and all you would have to do is download a "patch" of some sort from the new 3rd party DLS.

http://forums.auran.com/trainz/showpost.php?p=547835&postcount=1
There was at one time supposed to be a listing of 3rd party member sites on the DLS, but this seems to have been forgotten. I think a clean-up is good, better to organize what you have rather than toss it all and start from scratch though! Why not seperate DLS's as it is supossed to be anyway. This could even add to income because seperate FCT would be sold for thoses that want to try old and true plus new for you versions!

 

[crankwhistle]

What AURAN does will make my decision for me.

let me begin by saying that there is no anger in my words.Only an Honest view.
I am only expressing how I feel about this matter so that it is understood, because the outcome will determine whether I will support Auran in the future or whether I will not.
This is probably the most important issue that Auran will ever have to face and deal with.
The thread was almost closed and 'AJ FOX' showed wisdom by keeping it open. All the posts here are extremely important whether you realize that or not.
I cannot support Auran in the future if Auran takes this stance and I will tell you why.
I am a retired IBM customer service engineer,now why should that matter, I am nobody special, but I do Know what customer support is and when it is not.
The people that have machines that are strong enough to cope with the changes are very fortunate but I find thier comments rather distasteful when they have nothing positive to offer to those who do not, obviously thier needs are being met and should refrain from adding to this post as they have nothing to say that would actually help on this very important topic. I too have a strong machine but I do not think it has any relevance here.

**Punishment**
WINDWLKR page 8.This only affects people who choose not to upgrade their version of Trainz. As I've noted before, we don't really consider these people to be our customers- they may have been at one point in the past, but with limited exceptions they are either no longer our customers (ie. those who choose not to spend money on our current products), or in some cases are actively working against our business model (ie. those who actively try to convince others to avoid our current products.) There is no business case
to be made for sponsoring the activities of these users past the end-of-support dates for the products.

**What Auran really wants**
WINDWLKR page 8.We certainly recommend that freeware content for supported versions be uploaded to the DLS. The ability to provide an integrated download service for our customers is the reason that we
maintain the DLS, and performing error checking is part of that service.

**confusion**
WINDWLKR page 8.As a blanket statement, this isn't really accurate. Having content available on the DLS certainly benefits us, but there lots of reasons why DLS content is a poor choice for a Trainz release. We
certainly need to avoid relying on the DLS as a primary content source.

WINDWLKR page 8.Reducing new-user frustration and content problems is exactly why we're taking this step.

**We really don't need you**
WINDWLKR page 8.I don't disagree. This isn't a strong business case for keeping the DLS open to people who don't contribute to the running costs, however. "Hard times" affects companies as much as end-users.

I think I get the picture and find it very alarming, the direction you have taken is very distructive and will inevitabley be your downfall. You are punishing the community by removing the 04 06 content when you
should actually be spending time reorganizeing and improveing the DLS and also improveing your latest products instead of trying to squeeze the community into submission.

I'm sorry but in my view you are responsible for this disasterous situation not the community members, they have responding to you with valid concerns and you are responding as if they are responsible for your dilema. If you lose future customer loyalty it is a very difficult proposition to get them back, if not impossible. The choice you make is a very very serious one, just an honest view from one community member.

 

[builder300544]

You are punishing the community by removing the 04 06 content when you
should actually be spending time reorganizeing and improveing the DLS and also improveing your latest products instead of trying to squeeze the community into submission.

Hi,

I,m sorry, but where does it say that they are going to remove 04 06 content.

Auran are stating they will remove FAULTY content. Is that not reorganising and improving the DLS?

Cheers, John

 

[paulzmay]

Hi,

I,m sorry, but where does it say that they are going to remove 04 06 content.

Auran are stating they will remove FAULTY content. Is that not reorganising and improving the DLS?

Cheers, John

More to the point they say they may remove faulty content that can't be fixed. Really very little of value should be lost in the exercise, especially as Windwalkr has previously said that the community would be given the opportunity to get involved in correcting the assets of those creators who were unable to correct them themselves.

Personally I'm more concerned to get on with the DLS clean-up - it may actually help some folks make the decision to switch if they know that there are updates available for all those 'faulty' items. It's also a lot better for new users.

I also suspect that more creators may start using new features when compatibility for earlier versions is no longer a concern. Anyone know how to do mesh-table LOD???

Paul

 

[Dinorius_Redundicus]

.. You are punishing the community by removing the 04 06 content...

Crankwhistle

I find myself in the odd position of agreeing totally with your sentiments but have to correct you on this one point. To be fair to Auran, they are not proposing to remove '04/'06 content. This is misinformation. They are only going to prevent further new uploads of 'legacy' version content after Sept. The only exceptions will be very erroneous content and those will be removed only if they just cannot be fixed.

What still puzzles me is that while the vast majority of '04/'06 assets will remain on the DLS and available (which I'm very glad about), somehow it is only the new uploads after Sept. that are viewed as too great a cost or difficulty for Auran to support. These 2 things seem contradictory to me. If they can manage hundreds of thousands of existing old assets, why is it too hard/costly to deal with newly added ones, especially if they are now subjected to the more rigorous checks upon uploading? This hasn't been properly explained here or in the previously closed thread.

I get the impression that even if Auran put a $ figure on the cost and uploaders of '04/'06 content were happy to pay that fee, Auran are just not interested. They just don't wanna because it's all too mentally taxing to manage the chaos of all the different versions that they themselves created. When faced with that sort of 'logic', you have no choice but to accept it or vote with your feet.

EDIT: I see 2 others have made similar points while I was writing so I won't go on.

 

[amigacooke]

I am a retired IBM customer service engineer,now why should that matter, I am nobody special, but I do Know what customer support is and when it is not.

IBM has its Software Support Lifecycle.

 

[amigacooke]

When faced with that sort of 'logic', you have no choice but to accept it or vote with your feet.

Or add content to unsupported products by a non-automated method.

 

[wholbr]

As another motoring analogy, If I buy a car from my local Vauxhall dealer they are not going to turn me away if I'm still taking it to them 7 or 8 years later for the annual service and MOT test.

The above quote is very true Vern and the car could undoubtedly be reliable and comfortable, in fact it may well be your pride and joy. However, when you take that car out onto the motorway (or freeway for American readers) you would not expect it to perform to the standards of the latest Vauxall models in terms of smoothness, noise, miles per gallon, and general handling qualities.

Unfortunately it is the same with computers. I have three in my office here now, one is a laptop which I take with me when working. One is over five years old and is still excellent for handling spreadsheets etc. However, I would not expect it to run Trainz or be able to handle the speech software which I am using to dictate this. That is reserved for the latest one which is less than eighteen months old and is well able to handle the speech software and Trainz to the standards and expectations I require.

Unfortunately that is the way things work. As I have already stated everything continuously moves forward, sometimes for the better sometimes for the worst. The only thing that is certain is we cannot stop it happening and each time it affects us all we can do is to decide whether we wish to move with the times (and to pull out the money and effort requiered) or stay where we are and make the best of it.

With the highest respect for everyone's views

Bill

 

[stovepipe]

I don't understand some of the comments about hardware.

My boxed version of TS2010 says that laptops are not supported. Ok fine, just like many other software titles I suspect.

My 6-year old, below minimum-spec desktop - P4 3.0, 3Gb Ram, HD 2600 PRO 512mb GPU, XP SP3 32-bit - is able to give an acceptable Surveyor performance for ECML etc in TS2010. Obviously I have compromised on the draw distance, but that is OK for surveyor.

If I swap out the track to say MP Track Wood, Surveyor performance is on a par with previous versions of Trainz. Even in Driver I can get something playable out of TS2010 ECML.

I find it hard to believe that recent "power" PCs can't handle TS2010.

regards
Charles

 

[paulhobbs]

I don't understand some of the comments about hardware.

I don't either. My 3 year old laptop gives better performance with TS2010 than TC3, TRS2006 and TRS2004. In any case there is an easy solution for people who don't want to upgrade their hardware - build smaller and less complicated routes, use fewer consists and run them slower. In other words do what real railway modellers do and don't try and build King's Cross if you haven't got the space for it. We might even start seeing smaller, higher quality routes instead of ones that run for 200Km through a desert - again, real railway modellers only model the interesting bits.

Also don't forget that while a multi core CPU and rest may be recommended it's not needed to run the sim.

Paul

 

[stovepipe]

Crankwhistle

What still puzzles me is that while the vast majority of '04/'06 assets will remain on the DLS and available (which I'm very glad about), somehow it is only the new uploads after Sept. that are viewed as too great a cost or difficulty for Auran to support. These 2 things seem contradictory to me. If they can manage hundreds of thousands of existing old assets, why is it too hard/costly to deal with newly added ones, especially if they are now subjected to the more rigorous checks upon uploading? This hasn't been properly explained here or in the previously closed thread.

EDIT: I see 2 others have made similar points while I was writing so I won't go on.

The issue is not the content that resides on the DLS, but the way the numerous versions of Trainz interact with the DLS. Any changes to the DLS it seems, require each and every trainz-build to have custom code written and tested. The costs of maintaining the functionality for every Trainz version ever made, going forward indefinitely, is what has prompted Auran's decision.

At least that is what I took from Zec's post on the subject.

regards
Charles