Cab mode steam drivers, help...

frogpipe

Yesterdayz Trainz Member
I have a route where I have a diesel and a steamer set out. If I use the steamer straight away, all is well. But, if I use the diesel first, and then come back to the steamer, like an hour or so later, I have a problem.

The boiler pressure is fine, there's water in the boiler, and coal in the firebox. I set the reverser forward, release the brake, crack the throttle. I start to move, and then the boiler pressure drops to ZERO.

I've tried coal, water, the blower up full... nothing will get the pressure back.
 
All steam locos cool while resting, you need to turn the blower on and wait for the boiler to build pressure first, it can take up to 10-15 mins, if you turn the blower on with no steam pressure then it doesn't work as the blower needs steam to work.

Cheers.
 
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Hmmm. Ok.

The only thing is "build pressure" - from the gauges I *have* pressure, but it's gone is a flash as soon as I open the throttle.

And, no, no auto-fireman.
 
There's two issues here:

Trainz physics do not drop the pressure as they should in the boiler as it cools - hence the the large and instant pressure drop.

The minimum temperature of the fire is too low in the engine spec so you cannot generate any steam at all once you've lost it. Up the fire-min-temp tag (it's probably about 450, and would be better around 700) but this may stuff up the way the loco performs in other respects.

Regards,

Anthony
 
Hi Frogpipe,

What I had meant to say is wait till the safeties pop or boiler is a few PSI from Working Pressure, it's also as Anthony said, trainz doesn't show the boiler dropping properly, I can leave a loco stationary for 2 hours and only drops 3 PSI when it should drop to about 110~130 for a 175PSI Boiler, so when you open the regulator all that pressure is gone because the steam turns back to water, hence why the water level is higher than what it was when you started the session, keeping the blower on till safeties go off is the only way to get *real pressure*.

Cheers.
 
Ah... ok. So what we have here is a misrepresentation of the pressure.

Lovely

I'll give the blower a go and see if that solves things. One of the affected locos is the one with the Blue Comet, and since that's DLC I don't want to alter it (probably can't anyway).
 
As has been noted, Trainz can show a higher pressure when the boiler has cooled. Well, actually, my experience with boilers (small industrial boiler, and road roller boilers so far) has shown you can have a fairly high pressure and a relatively cool fire, simply from the fact that the boiler still has heat in it, and the fire is still putting out heat. I have got notes here (currently going through a boiler attendant and engine operator course) that cover combustion/etc, however to maintain around the same pressure you need less heat than you do to make more steam/pressure. Hence, yes, you can have pressure with a cooler fire. However, it won't be full working pressure, and the steam won't be replaced when you use it. Hence, when you open the regulator, your steam pressure plummets, as there's not enough heat to raise more pressure.

Hence, you need to use the blower to create a draft, and likely add a bit of coal in as well.

The only real option is to either raise steam back up, or possibly try the auto fireman. I can't say for certain, but maybe give the driver a series of 'wait for ##' commands, which would cover a large amount of the session time. The AI may keep pressure up, but I can't say for sure as I've not specifically tried this...

Regards
 
This makes me ponder what is/was done in real life when a locomotive had to set standing for an extended period of time.

What did they do either to avoid this, or to restore the pressure before starting off on their next trip?

Like, was it SOP to crank the blower(s) up and wait for the safety to pop before attempting to start? I read somewhere that when starting from Cold and Dark they'd use an electric fan to start the draft until there was enough steam for the internal blower to take over, but that was an oil burner and obviously "today's" procedure.

It seems that in Trainz, if the steam is gone, you're stuck. There's no way to build it back up again.

Would it be possible in Trainz to start up Cold? I know that's not the default, but would it be possible?
 
If a loco is going to be sitting for an extended time, it will either have the fire knocked out, or it will have the fire banked... Both are good for a loco sitting around overnight (for example).

If you knock the fire out, it will of course cool down quite a lot, and will require a near cold start the next day (the little tank locos at Puffing Billy generally still have about 5-10PSI after sitting for 12+ hours without a fire...).

If you bank the fire, it'll keep the loco warm but not 'full steam hot'. You can bank a fire somewhat in Trainz. 100% coal level is optimal fire, higher is heading towards a 'banked' fire. Under 100% is heading towards a thin, and after a while, cooler fire.

So, if you don't mind doing a few minutes 'prep' on the steamer in your session, bank the fire (150% may be a start, possibly 125%; not really tried it much sorry), have about 95% water in the boiler, and leave the blower shut. When you're ready to take the loco for a run, crack the blower until you see pressure starting to increase. Once it starts increasing, your fire is hot and it shouldn't drop too much when you start driving. You may need the blower cracked a little, depending on the loco.

As to using an electric,etc, blower. This is only used for a cold start. A lot of sheds have smokestacks built into them as well. These have two purposes, one is to exhaust smoke out of the shed, the other is to increase the chimney/flue length which increases the draft without the blower running.

As to a cold start, I know a few people who have developed 'warm start' locos (not stone cold, but not hot either) that take an hour or so to warm up, however Trainz won't handle a stone cold start. Considering a stone cold start is several hours (a small boiler can be bought up to about full pressure in 2-3ish hours if in a hurry, a large boiler generally requires a lot more time than this!), I really don't see the need to model it in Trainz, beyond a curiosity...

Regards
 
The AI doesn't do anything to the boiler pressure, I use 'wait 30 seconds, repeat' and that keeps the boiler water at 70% sight glass and coal level as 100%, but the boiler still cools after 5 mins of resting and when you go to the loco you need cancel AI control and turn the blower on and go back to AI control and leave the loco for a while, the AI will help keep the water 70%, without the AI water will be burned through safeties and it'll drop to 0 PSI when the water is at Fusible Plug level.

Best to open the blower slightly and use 'wait 30 secs, repeat' so when you want to use the loco later on it's still hot, trainz needs an Auto-AI-Blower so if the pressure drops to a certain amount it turns the blower on and when it's above a certain amount it turns it off.

Cheers.
 
Ok, all good info. But I want to back up a bit.

You mentioned "If a loco is going to be sitting for an extended time, it will either have the fire knocked out, or it will have the fire banked... Both are good for a loco sitting around overnight (for example)."

That makes sense, but what about laying over somewhere for an hour? That's how long (30-60 mins) I am waiting between session start and getting in the cab to find I have no steam volume available.
 
Hi Frogpipe,

In that case the fireman, driver or employee who is around the loco will check that the fire coal level is right and pressure is up, if it needs to be heated a little the person on the footplate will do that but only to about 30PSI below working pressure as you want to conserve water and coal, only for long periods '6 hours or more' a fire will be banked or put out (over night rest).

This video shows a loco that was standing for about 2 hours, during that time the firemen kept the boiler around 150 PSI while the working pressure is 170 PSI, it wasn't till 15 mins till departure the fireman heated the boiler to safety valve pressure

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tt9TjYE0BBw

This video is it leaving with safeties popped

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6M8cYilqeCk

I got hot water on my face as it past, lol

Also, in the e-spec, check the idle burn rate, some people have it way too low, about less than half a lump of coal per hour is burned, a good value is 0.068~0.0126, for a loco that's used for shunting I set the idle burn to 0.0178~0.0203 so the fire stays hot when it's resting for 5~10 mins without the need for the blower which burns coal quickly.

Cheers.
 
Try assigning a driver to the steam loco as well, in other words a driver for the diesel loco and a different driver in the steam loco.
 
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