Bristish semaphore signalling procedures

[davidbird]

The prototype functions of the 2 and 3 stacked disc ground signals are simply that they refer to a choice of 2 or 3 routes ahead. The top-most disc is cleared for the left-most route. As I mentioned above the meaning when "On" is always "Stop". When "Off", ie with the bar inclined either up or down, they mean "proceed with caution, as there may be an obstruction ahead."

In Trainz, use them with Bloodnok's Targets, the "feather/arrow" ones. I don't think it matters which, as long as they are consistent - ie use a straight, a left position 1 and a left position 2 for a 3-disc. The only restriction is that they will only clear when the section to the next signal is clear. To fool them, I use the "L5 Invisible Signal Permissive" signal.

Here's a screenshot of a 3-way stacked disc, with targets beyond.



This is the view a bit further on. Here there is a 3-arm signal (as close as I could get to the prototype - it should be a 2-arm long doll and a single arm short doll - but that's not available), again with the 3 targets beyond it. This works in the same way as the 3-disc ground signal. You can just make out the yellow arrow in the centre track before it divides again. This is the invisible permissive signal, to allow the visible signal to clear when the route is set, but the sidings occupied.



Hope that's made it a bit clearer.

 

[Lataxe]

The prototype functions of the 2 and 3 stacked disc ground signals are simply that they refer to a choice of 2 or 3 routes ahead. The top-most disc is cleared for the left-most route. As I mentioned above the meaning when "On" is always "Stop". When "Off", ie with the bar inclined either up or down, they mean "proceed with caution, as there may be an obstruction ahead."

In Trainz, use them with Bloodnok's Targets, the "feather/arrow" ones. I don't think it matters which, as long as they are consistent - ie use a straight, a left position 1 and a left position 2 for a 3-disc. The only restriction is that they will only clear when the section to the next signal is clear. To fool them, I use the "L5 Invisible Signal Permissive" signal.

Here's a screenshot of a 3-way stacked disc, with targets beyond.



This is the view a bit further on. Here there is a 3-arm signal (as close as I could get to the prototype - it should be a 2-arm long doll and a single arm short doll - but that's not available), again with the 3 targets beyond it. This works in the same way as the 3-disc ground signal. You can just make out the yellow arrow in the centre track before it divides again. This is the invisible permissive signal, to allow the visible signal to clear when the route is set, but the sidings occupied.



Hope that's made it a bit clearer.

Mr B,

Now that we signal-fiddlers have captured you in this thread, I will take the opportunity to apply a few more specific questions. I have been doing a lot of experiments myself so have figured out this and that; but there are still mysteries. However, already you have clarified the use of those posts with three arms one above another. In essence, they are doll versions of the three stacked shunting discs - is that right?

Just now it's collie-walking time. This cannot be delayed as the collies expect; frustration of the expectation can result in awkward events! As I am out there, hoying a ball & stick 3000 times, I will be pondering which signal question to ask you first. There are some signals with curious names and unusual aspects which even the various books I have now acquired fail to mention, let alone explain.

Lataxe

 

[Bob48]

Now that is a big help. Seeing it like that makes it so much clearer, so thank you!

B-)

 

[davidbird]

...
However, already you have clarified the use of those posts with three arms one above another. In essence, they are doll versions of the three stacked shunting discs - is that right?

Yes, in Trainz, the 3-arm signal works just the same as the 3-disc one.

In this prototype location (Bestwood Park Junction, north of Nottingham, in about 1980), although it is 3 small arms, the centre one at least has the same meaning as a disc - the line ahead may be obstructed. The top arm gives access to the left-most route, the branch to Calverton Colliery, the middle one to the Loaded Wagon Sidings, which may be full, of course, and the bottom, right-most route is the stub of the former branch to Bestwood Colliery, now just used as a loco lay-by line. Just goes to show that even in the disciplined world of signalling, things are not always as you expect!

Just now it's collie-walking time. This cannot be delayed as the collies expect; frustration of the expectation can result in awkward events! As I am out there, hoying a ball & stick 3000 times, I will be pondering which signal question to ask you first. There are some signals with curious names and unusual aspects which even the various books I have now acquired fail to mention, let alone explain.

Lataxe

Ask away, we'll do our best to explain. I must say, however, I'm not a signalling expert, all my knowledge comes from reading books and studying how the prototype did things...

At least with collies, they'll bring the ball back. My spaniel will chase after the ball, pick it up, run with it, then drop it leaving me to walk out to wherever it landed...

 

[Lataxe]

Ask away, we'll do our best to explain. I must say, however, I'm not a signalling expert, all my knowledge comes from reading books and studying how the prototype did things...

At least with collies, they'll bring the ball back. My spaniel will chase after the ball, pick it up, run with it, then drop it leaving me to walk out to wherever it landed...

Mr B,

Yes, the collies have returned the ball, approximately 2,893 times today. Ollie the collie opines that spaniels are too daft to grasp the proper procedure, which is why he steals their balls whenever he can since said balls are wasted on them.

But here are some questions which I'm hoping you can throw a light on on. The questions relate to the context of British signalling in general and semaphore signals in particular.......

What situations typically require a signal to be on the right rather than the left of the track on which a train approaches?

Where route indicator signals are used in yards or other slow-speed multi-route situations, were the messages on the indicators limited to standard terms (eg loop n, bay n)or could they vary with the local context (e.g. "goods shed", branch line")?

What are backing signals - their purpose, usage and position?

What does the ring on a ringed signal indicate?

Which signal types are appropriate for LNER and ex-LNER routes?

Any and all enlightenment gratefully received!

Later, some questions about the use of feather and theatre boards.

Lataxe, signalling for help.

 

[chrisaw]

Route indicators didn't have a standard set of terms.

Backing signals were superceded by discs in early BR days.

Ringed signals are for loops and sidings and were superceded by the three foot arm.

I'm sure I've read somewhere that the Southern Railway (and later BR(S)?)) only used single discs.

On a signal with arms or discs for multiple routes on the one post the sequence is: top arm for leftmost route with each arm down the post for the next route to the right.

Chris.

 

[Lataxe]

Route indicators didn't have a standard set of terms.

Backing signals were superceded by discs in early BR days.

Ringed signals are for loops and sidings and were superceded by the three foot arm.

I'm sure I've read somewhere that the Southern Railway (and later BR(S)?)) only used single discs.

On a signal with arms or discs for multiple routes on the one post the sequence is: top arm for leftmost route with each arm down the post for the next route to the right.

Chris.

Chris,

This all adds a lot of sense to the various British routes I've downloaded and enjoyed over the years. Shunting discs seem to be the norm virtually everywhere for slow-speed & reversing manoeuvres, with little or no sign of backing or ringed signals, presumably because most British Trainz routes tend to be set in a relatively modern era when ringed and backing signals were superseded.

It's interesting that route indicators could contain local-context directives. I have played with a couple of your route indicator items in Photoshop, to change the messages on the pop-up boards; I'm making those messages up, mind, as I've yet to find a book with a photo of a route indicator signal in it. Do you have any knowledge of those geographical locations or typical situations where they would be most likely to occur?

Thanks for this additional information, now added to the growing databank in me wee head.

Lataxe.

 

[signalnorth]

Sorry to go off thread but on that pic. can I ask How did you get those lovely embankmentsgoing away in the distance to curve like that? I can only manage neat embankments on straights as otherwise they spill out in sharp corners. Please tell!!!! Sorry not his pic, the other one

 

[lewisner]

I had at one point intended to do some Tips for the Tips and Tricks thread in Surveyor but the field of signalling is so vast that I gave up the idea.

 

[Kennilworth]

Hi signalnorth

Search the DLS for "FMA Bank". This should bring up a number of items such as "FMA Bank w 12" or "FMA Bank Divider w 12" amongst many others. The w indicates the width of the top of the embankment. They should all work in TS2009.

These will create embankments and you need to raise the track so that it appears to be sat on top of the embankment. There are also a range of bridges and viaducts to go with them. Cuttings can be made by using two embankments one at each side of the tracks and raising the ground to match on the side away from the tracks.

There are similar items from other creators such as masontaylor who also makes cuttings that are used in a similar way.

Regards

Brian

 

[lewisner]

Hi signalnorth

Search the DLS for "FMA Bank". This should bring up a number of items such as "FMA Bank w 12" or "FMA Bank Divider w 12" amongst many others. The w indicates the width of the top of the embankment. They should all work in TS2009.

These will create embankments and you need to raise the track so that it appears to be sat on top of the embankment. There are also a range of bridges and viaducts to go with them. Cuttings can be made by using two embankments one at each side of the tracks and raising the ground to match on the side away from the tracks.

There are similar items from other creators such as masontaylor who also makes cuttings that are used in a similar way.

Regards

Brian

If you also search for "SAM VS" their creator "samplaire" does a range of embankments with more realistic colours for the UK together with adapters to allow them to be used with FMA bridges.

 

[signalnorth]

If you also search for "SAM VS" their creator "samplaire" does a range of embankments with more realistic colours for the UK together with adapters to allow them to be used with FMA bridges.

Great, helpful replies from all - Thank you.

 

[lewisner]

OK, here is my first contribution. It has long been a requirement generally on UK railways that level crossing gates should be protected by signals and that these should be interlocked with each other. The screenshot below shows how signals should be arranged to protect a level crossing, this applies to gates or barriers.On the left it is done correctly; the bracket signal is for a divergence after the crossing and thus whether a train is going straight ahead on the main or diverging to the left it will be stopped by the signal if the gates are closed. The right hand track also has a disc signal for shunting moves across the road and again this stops the train if the gates are closed. On the right it is done incorrectly; the signals are after the level crossing so potentially at night the gates could be closed but the driver could see a green light and crash the gates! In addition, if the gates were open but the signals were "ON" (railway slang for showing a "STOP" aspect) then the train would block the road leading to much swearing from motorists. Thus, generally speaking, the next signal after the crossing should be a sufficient distance from it so that a typical train would not block the road if it was stopped at the signal. The centre bit of pointwork shows the asset "Points" which represent a set of manual points worked from a signalbox or ground frame by rods. If you have a signalbox on your line the points should have these or point motors on the Running Lines, NOT hand levers. There WILL BE exceptions to these rules but generally they are true. Here is a useful page on level crossings - http://www.railsigns.co.uk/info/xings1/xings1.html
trainz 2014-04-18 21-32-05-19 par PinzaC55, on ipernity larger image = http://www.ipernity.com/doc/pinzac55/32098625/sizes/o

 

[davidbird]

... On the right it is done incorrectly; the signals are after the level crossing ... There WILL BE exceptions to these rules but generally they are true. ...

Of course there are exceptions, here's the one I thought of straight away, Lincoln Street Crossing, Basford, Nottingham in 1978.

The right-hand (Up) line has a disc for setting-back moves across the cross-over after the crossing.

But, because of the reasons Lewisner mentions, it was obviously re-sited later. Here is a link to a flickr photo of the same location in 1988.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/tractionart/8071910190

This is now part of the Nottingham NET tram system, with no crossover, no disc signal and another electrified double-track rail line to the left of the lines in the pictures.

 

[davidbird]

... [in the] the context of British signalling in general and semaphore signals in particular.......

What situations typically require a signal to be on the right rather than the left of the track on which a train approaches?

Its to do with sighting. Most (but certaintly not all and not the GWR - they did things differently) British trains were/are left-hand drive. On a left hand bend the signals were often placed on the right side of the track where they could be seen better on approaching the bend. Of course this means they cannot be seen so well when actually stopped at them , but in steam days you had a fireman to look out for them for you. They could also be found on platform lines, where the signal would be on the same side as the platform, if the platform is on the right of the track, so is the signal. Again, as the train is stopped, the fireman can look out for the signals for you.

Where route indicator signals are used in yards or other slow-speed multi-route situations, were the messages on the indicators limited to standard terms (eg loop n, bay n)or could they vary with the local context (e.g. "goods shed", branch line")?

If you mean the stencil indicators, which were used instead of multiple stacked discs (see here http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?app=core&module=attach&section=attach&attach_rel_module=post&attach_id=371480) they were depending on the local context ie LOOP, DMX, GDS YD, etc. The theatres on MAS running signals were moreorless standardised.

...

Which signal types are appropriate for LNER and ex-LNER routes?

...

The LNER standard was for upper quadrant, UQ, signals, but pre-grouping companies, ie GNR, NBR, etc, often used LQ, the LNER may or may not have got round to converting these before nationalisation, often it was BR that converted them to UQ.

 

[Lataxe]

Thank you Mr B and Lewisner. Your info is particularly pertinent to my current Trainz fiddlin' since I'm slowly "improving" a merge of PD1138's Yorkshire routes, which he published as 8 separate routes set in an era with electric rather than semaphore signals. The route has many, many level crossing in it, although PD1138 used a single crossing kind throughout - and rather a lot of a single electric signal type.

I'm trying to rework the merged Yorkshire route into an earlier semaphore era whilst also adding a lot of detail, reworking the landscape textures & flora, etc.. From various past posts, I suspect that there are a lot of Trainzers who have also merged these Yorkshire routes of PD1138, as they are quite good in themselves but do offer this opportunity to merge and "upgrade" them.

Perhaps someone will one day get PD1138's permission to publish a merged/upgraded version to Trainz Content Manager? For me, it's really just a matter of locally-using a very good already-extant route to learn my own route-building skills, in the hope that one day I'll be able to make & publish a route of my own - more likely a generic British fantasy route than an attempt to model a real-world railway such as Yorkshire.

But it would be good if any route I make myself at least has the correct detailing in terms of signal operation, track patterns and so forth. Hence my current obsession with British semaphore signalling.

No more questions from me for the moment concerning signalling - although I suspect I'm going to come across one or two puzzles about how the Trainz program itself deals with various signalling arrangements. It seems all too easy to set up signals in a way that Trainz dislikes, causing them to either not work as intended or not operate at all.

Lataxe