Bristish semaphore signalling procedures

L

Lataxe

Member
It can be hard work digging out information about Trainz inner workings, eh!? I've given up on the forum search facility, which seems to provide a thousand irrelevant results for any and every search-term. Anyway, my question:

Besides the PDF file that came with (I think) the Settle & Carlisle add-on, entitled "Trainz_TC3_Signalling_Tutorial", can anyone point me at either a forum thread or some similar information source that explains in more detail how the various types of British semaphore signalling items should be placed within Trainz?

I'm prompted to ask because I've been trying to employ the many excellent semaphore signals provided on the DLS by author chrisaw. They are legion, with many variations on their themes! But they look the business and seem approriate for a lot of the British routes I'm upgrading, merging or making. I have a fine book entitled "Two Centuries of Railway Signalling (2nd edition)" by Geoffrey Kitchenside & Alan Williams but this is more of an historical overview than a detailed explanation of which signal type was used for what type of control & direction-setting.

If there is no convenient Trainz document or thread about British semaphore signalling esoterica, does anyone know of a book I could buy that explains the detailed semaphore signal types and their control functions, for the various types of junctions & traffic common on British railways through the first 2/3rds of the C20th? I'd be very grateful for any pointers or suggestions.

Lataxe
 
Mr Watch,

Although that book you mention may be subsumed to a degree within the book I already have (Two Centuries of...) an Amazon order has been placed, along with an order for a book on shunting I spied when sculling about there. Perhaps these books will elaborate on the detail - although perhaps I should also have a more thorough read of "Two Centuries of....". :)

Mr Saw,

There are plenty more signals besides your own!? I'm awash in them already although that website you pointed at is certainly a help in respect of the shunting signals, which I've been struggling to understand.

Was it you who wrote the S&C Signalling explanation? That's very helpful as a primer; and the stuff about block working from the "Two Centuries of..." book did add a bit to those basics.

I notice, in the website you pointed at, the explanation of signals with message boards below them, such as "loop" or "bay". I think I understand that this board allows a single semaphore to control access to various branches (with the board saying which one is open) but how does one get such signals to work in Trainz? Is there a set of indicators like the various feathers but with a different list of names (loop, bay or whatever)? And I confess to not fully understanding all of the feathers (e.g. "position 2").

Anyway, thanks both for your help so far, which has already clarified a mystery or two for me. I feel the urge to construct a 6 or 10 boarder to try and put what I learn into practice. I wonder if such a thing would be a useful DLS item, in time.....?

Lataxe
 
Although it might seem a little 'masochistic', if you can stand the frustration, there is nothing like making a 2 or 3 board track
layout & using just one creators signals at a time, playing around & learning what works with what, I have enough spare time on
my hands to do this, but I also understand that a lot of people don't because of lifes other callings, if you are lucky & have
the time, experimenting can teach you loads & be fun doing it. (but do make sure you can spare the hair if need be) :D
 
BLACKWATCH said:
Although it might seem a little 'masochistic', if you can stand the frustration, there is nothing like making a 2 or 3 board track
layout & using just one creators signals at a time, playing around & learning what works with what, I have enough spare time on
my hands to do this, but I also understand that a lot of people don't because of lifes other callings, if you are lucky & have
the time, experimenting can teach you loads & be fun doing it. (but do make sure you can spare the hair if need be) :D
Click to expand...

Mr Watch,

There is something about the glow of understanding following the pain of stumbling about in the dark. Rather like today's bike ride about The Bowland Fells, it may be nice when it stops (the hard-learning that obliterates my signal-ignorance, I mean). :) I do have a problem with time, despite (perhaps because of) being retired. This time seems to leak-off somewhere and before you know it bedtime has come with hardly a yard of track laid. I blame the collie-dogs, the bicycle, the guitar and the shed - not that any of them give a toss about getting blamed.

Lataxe, a mere fiddler with Trainz.
 
G'day Lataxe,

...welcome to the wonderful world of semaphore signalling. One of the best sources I know of for knowledge on the intricacies of railway signalling (especially these older 'designs') is that obtained by the men (and/or women), who spend or spent their lives working within the confines of a Signalbox (former drivers can often be very helpful, too). If you can befriend someone of this 'persuasion', you would be able to 'pick their brains' for information. I would offer my own 'services' in this regard (25 years as a driver with a further 8 as a signaller) but my specific knowledge of the inner workings of the operating systems used by the Victorian Railways (of Australia), although based on English practise, would only confuse matters - I have enough of a rudimentary knowledge of the various English systems to know that that would be the case. Sorry! One other option no one else has mentioned, is to source out the Operating Rules of the railway company that operated over the line that is in your interest, which should 'spell out' (in great detail) how, why and where any specific signal type should be used- I believe copies of these may be obtained from booksellers who specialise in railway memorabilia. On the internet, the best source I have found is known as "The Signalbox" (a long lived website that I have 'used' since before the turn of the century) and is the source I use for information on English signalling (of all kinds)...

..I wish you the best of luck in your quest (which doesn't mean that I won't provide assistance if I can):hehe:...

Jerker {:)}
 
Jerker said:
G'day Lataxe,

...welcome to the wonderful world of semaphore signalling. One of the best sources I know of for knowledge on the intricacies of railway signalling (especially these older 'designs') is that obtained by the men (and/or women), who spend or spent their lives working within the confines of a Signalbox (former drivers can often be very helpful, too). If you can befriend someone of this 'persuasion', you would be able to 'pick their brains' for information. I would offer my own 'services' in this regard (25 years as a driver with a further 8 as a signaller) but my specific knowledge of the inner workings of the operating systems used by the Victorian Railways (of Australia), although based on English practise, would only confuse matters - I have enough of a rudimentary knowledge of the various English systems to know that that would be the case. Sorry! One other option no one else has mentioned, is to source out the Operating Rules of the railway company that operated over the line that is in your interest, which should 'spell out' (in great detail) how, why and where any specific signal type should be used- I believe copies of these may be obtained from booksellers who specialise in railway memorabilia. On the internet, the best source I have found is known as "The Signalbox" (a long lived website that I have 'used' since before the turn of the century) and is the source I use for information on English signalling (of all kinds)...

..I wish you the best of luck in your quest (which doesn't mean that I won't provide assistance if I can):hehe:...

Jerker {:)}
Click to expand...

Good morning Mr Jerker.

A tame signalman handy just by the desk! Now that would be a useful personage, no doubts. :) I do live near the West Coast mainline and there are many old railwaay towns not far away (Lancaster, Carnforth, Tebay, Preston, Settle et al). Perhaps I can dig out an old signalman somewhere, assuming they're not all out riding the rails on the lifetime ticket given to them on their retirement. (I know, unlikely).

Meanwhile I'll post a specific question or two here and hope that lads like yourself and the others who've contributed to the thread so far can lighten my darkness. Might I start by asking for some definitions?

In the thread referenced above there is talk of Theatres as some kind of alternative or addition-to feathers. I've perused the information sources I have at some length but can't find a definition of what these are or what they do. Are they a Trainz thing or a real-world signalling convention? I have a similar quandry concerning "loop". I could make guesses - but they would surely be wildly wrong......

The website you pointed at is the same as that mentioned above by Chrisaw and an excellent place it is. Perhaps if I look harder it will tell me what theatres and loops are. :)

I do have a basic understanding of the block signalling conventions and the associated signals, which understanding is slowly improving as I peruse the literature (more of which is about to land via the letterbox). I suppose my largest area of ignorance concerns the plethora of shunting methods and associated signalling, which seems often to consist of exceptions or additions to the block system, to suit particular yards and sidings.

Anyway, if you and other willing lads would like to dribble bits of info in answer to my questions as I stumble about in the gloaming, barking my mental shin on various signalling esoterica, I will be very grateful. And perhaps others will be reading and saying, "Ahhhhh!" as the light goes on.

Lataxe

PS I note your suggestion about obtaining the actual railway instructions for signalmen & drivers. Perhaps when I've got a better grip of the terminologies and basics these will be useful. At present, I suspect they would overwhelm me with their technical terms.
 
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Hi Lataxe

A theatre signal is one which has a screen usually above it but it may be to one side. This can display one or more numbers or letters to indicate which route or platform the train is routed to take.

The Signalling Record Society http://www.s-r-s.org.uk/index.php have a large number of diagrams of original signalling drawings free on their website. They also sell books concerning signalling, in particular the Swift series show details of former LMR routes which I have found very useful for understanding how the prototype was signalled in BR steam days.

There are a couple of small books that I have found helpful - "Modern Signalling Handbook" by Stanley Hall and "Signalling in the Age of Steam" by Michael A Vanns both published by Ian Allen. I picked my copies up from ebay for only two or three pounds each and they contain a wealth of information.

I find that studying how actual stations and junctions were signalled can help a lot in understanding how everything went together.

Incidently, the L&Y railway used a large model railway to teach signalmen the basics of signalling. This layout is now in the Railway Museum at York and is demonstrated a few times a year. The next demonstration will be a week on Saturday, 15th March which I am hoping to go and see.

Regards

Brian
 
G'day Lataxe,

...let's see if we can't shed some light onto that darkness...

...firstly, bear in mind that I am no expert on English railway practise but...

...I have good reason to believe (and of course, I am open to being "shot down in flames" - and politely corrected - if I am wrong), that the term 'Theatre' should be used in conjunction with the word 'Indicator' and these are similar 'devices' to 'Feather Indicators', which are used to display to the driver of a train, the route for which the proceed aspect displayed on a signal applies, in those situations where the signal applies to more than one road or line. These type of indicators differ from the 'feather' type in that they use letters to show the route, instead of a row of lights 'pointing' in the direction of the diverge...

...now, the term "loop" is another kettle of fish, altogether. As I understand it, the use of this term in England refers to those tracks at stations on Single Lines of railway (other than the ones that form any yard that might exist there) that provide a facility to permit trains running in opposite directions to 'cross'/'pass' each other. It can also be used to refer to a similar 'arrangement' on Double Lines of Railway to isolated sections of track that provide a facility for slow trains (especially Goods Trains) to be put aside, off the main line, so that faster Passenger Trains can 'pass' ("run through" - not 'literally, of course) them. In this case, they are often referred to as "Goods Loops"...

...secondly, I have to say that I am impressed with your command of the English language (not unexpectedly, given your location) and that, because of it, you are "a man of my own heart". It is rare, indeed, to find someone here who has such a good vocabulary as your good self and one who uses punctuation correctly. I look forward to further 'conversations'...

...by the way, it's just "plain", "old" "Jerker", if you wouldn't mind - "Mr. Jerker" was my father:hehe: :hehe:...

Jerker {:)}
 
In the case of the BR(W) signals uploaded by me, the terms branch and loop on junction signals refer to the type of arm (board) on the post (doll). I used these terms as a way of describing the look of the signal, but the combinations are so varied that it becomes almost impossible to describe them meaningfully in surveyor, especially when the signal is for anything more than three ways.
I've posted on this forum about the difficulty of naming semaphores for surveyor in the past, but having no alternatives offered, one of my last signals is just called 4 way and relying on the thumbnail in surveyor.

In my naming:
Branch is a four foot arm for the reduced speed direction (lower on the post).
Loop is a three foot arm (older style had a white ring). This is for goods loops and sidings in which speed is to be kept low as the driver must be prepared to stop at the next signal.
Route indicator is as the name (the GWR style were also known as cash registers). Used in low speed situations to allow the driver time to read the sign. Typically terminus stations or goods loops where the number of arms required on the usual signal can be greatly reduced.

Don't be misled by the term main as used by many to describe a path.
The tallest arm is the one with the highest speed limit. If you are on (say) the relief line, and switching to the main which is on the left, the tallest arm will usually be for the line you are on (relief) as you have to reduce speed for the crossover onto the main.

I hope this helps, and doesn't confuse the issue further,
Chris.
 
G'day Lataxe,

...after reading Chrisaw's post, above, it occurs to me that 'Theatre Indicators' and semaphore signals, given their very nature, would be rather strange bedfellows (why this didn't occur to me beforehand, has me intrigued). Usually, where more than one 'route'/'path'/'line' is involved, a separate signal is provided for each of those routes and the interlocking prevents the 'clearing' of any signal not applicable to the route that has been set. That's the beauty of semaphores - one route, one applicable signal only - no confusion (and no need for route indicators)...

Jerker {:)}
 
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First let me apologise for the delay in replying to these helpful posts. Yesterday I are been mostly wrestling with a hawthorn hedge (Spring is about to sprang so it needed a post-winter cut) and today was the fitting and testing of a new Brooks leather saddle on the bicycle. For the benefit of Blackwatch I'll just mention that both of these activities represent a true masochism. :)

I did find time to play with some board-displaying signals and feather/theatre boards in Trainz, which has just got me more confused about how they actually relate to each other; and which signals work with the theatre indicators. Still, this sort of experimentation is the scientific method and will no doubt lead to a eureka moment! (I hope).

But Chrisaw's post clarifying the conventions concerning the main path will also help, as will the notion that board-signals and similar are best for low-speed and complex route situations such as goods loops and terminii.

Two books arrived yesterday, one about signals and the other about marshalling and shunting. I hope these will also contain clues, if not a full and simple explanation. The signals book ("Signalling in the Age of Steam" by Michael Vanns) has an appendix of "The rules, regs and other documentation" for signalling as published by BR in the 60s, at the end of the steam era. It's full of jargon but may in time provide a lot of understanding. At least it will if my eyes can deal with the tiny 8-point type-face.

As to the naming conventions for the signals in Trainz......

Long ago I worked in IT and was Configuration Manager for a huge and complex mainframe software development programme with a zillion modules of many kinds. The naming conventions were very difficult because of the number, variety and overlapping funtions of this stuff, not to mention the constant flow of updated versions. So I have every sympathy with Chrisaw when it comes to trying to give meaningful names to Trainz assets. But at least he tries, unlike many authors who make wonderful things for Trainz but make them exceedingly difficult to find or differentiate because of their haphazard or obscure naming choices.

But who am I to moan-on, eh? :)

Finally, might I ask a simple question which probably has a complex answer:

Which signals (name and/or KUID) can be used with theatre indicators? I can make guesses from their names then experiment .... but a short cut to the anwers would be very useful.

Lataxe the cut-hands-tender-bum.
 
Kennilworth said:
Hi Lataxe

A theatre signal is one which has a screen usually above it but it may be to one side. This can display one or more numbers or letters to indicate which route or platform the train is routed to take.

The Signalling Record Society http://www.s-r-s.org.uk/index.php have a large number of diagrams of original signalling drawings free on their website. They also sell books concerning signalling, in particular the Swift series show details of former LMR routes which I have found very useful for understanding how the prototype was signalled in BR steam days.

There are a couple of small books that I have found helpful - "Modern Signalling Handbook" by Stanley Hall and "Signalling in the Age of Steam" by Michael A Vanns both published by Ian Allen. I picked my copies up from ebay for only two or three pounds each and they contain a wealth of information.

I find that studying how actual stations and junctions were signalled can help a lot in understanding how everything went together.

Incidently, the L&Y railway used a large model railway to teach signalmen the basics of signalling. This layout is now in the Railway Museum at York and is demonstrated a few times a year. The next demonstration will be a week on Saturday, 15th March which I am hoping to go and see.

Regards

Brian
Click to expand...

Mr Worth,

As you may have noticed from the above post, I took your recommendation for the Michael Vanns book. I may have to get new spectacles in order to read it, though - tiny, tiny typeface; or am I just an old scrote who has to peer at everything now and ask for every sentence to be repeated? The rot of ages (sigh).

I'd love to go to the York museum to see the model railway signal demo. It's not too far from here but unfortunately I'll be at the other side of the country on the date you mention, in West Wales torturing myself on a bicycle in between entertaining two collie dogs with a ball on various vast wild beaches. Someone has to do it.

Lataxe
 
Mr Lataxe,

You command my respect sir, I would sooner go a couple of rounds with Mick McManus, than tackle Hawthorn.
However, when it comes to bicycle saddles made of leather from Brooks & Co. that is indeed masochism, I myself
have (being a bit of a softy these days) fitted one of the new 'Gel' type for my personal comfort. :D
 
I've only just seen this thread, hope you're making progress in understanding signalling.
Apologies if this is now stuff that you do understand, but in all that I've read on this thread, it seems that no-one has answered the simple questions.
So here goes

On plain line it's fairly straightforward, these comments are about junctions.

Colour-light signals (also known as MAS - Multiple Aspect Signal) usually have just a single head - ie just one light - and a splitting of the route is shown by either a "feather", or a "theater". A feather is a row of 5 small white lights pointing at an angle to the side which the diverging route takes, if the main/straight route is selected there is no indication. A theater is a box which shows either a number (for example "3" for platform 3) or a letter (eg "M" for "Main line") by a dot matrix pattern of small white lights. There is an indication for every route. Both feathers and theaters are blank/unlit when the signal is red. Feathers are used for main running lines, theatres are used where line speeds are lower such as goods lines or approaching stations. In Trainz, use any of the Sig 3A or Sig 4A series, together with the Sig Targets by Bloodnok. When the targets are placed on a route, the signal will automatically display the feather (or theatre).

But your question was about semaphore signals.
In Britain, semaphores were either "upper quadrant", where the arm moved upwards from horizontal, or "lower quadrant", where the arm moved down. They were both failsafe, UQ signals were set at stop by the weight of the arm itself, surprisingly LQ were also set to danger, not by the weight of the relatively lightweight wooden arm, but by the weight of the heavy cast iron spectacle glass (the frame holding the coloured glass which pivots over the oil lamp).

As you've already said, on a semaphore signal, each route has it's own arm (and light). Hence, while a MAS will have only one light, a semaphore will have more than one, although only one can be green at a time, all the others must be red.
The arms are mounted on posts or "dolls". The main route is signalled by the tallest doll, diverging routes by shorter dolls either to left or right of the main doll, depending on the divergence. In Trainz, use any of the Sig UQ series (or Sig LQ if you're modelling GWR or BR Western region) , by Bloodnok, Chrisaw or francelinetony, with the same "Sig Target" range - just the feather/arrow ones - as previously mentioned for MAS, by Bloodnok.

Shunting signals are where the confusion really gets going.

For MAS signals a shunt head is provided on the same post, displaying 2 small white lights diagonally when the shunt route is set. The "stop" indication is shown by the red light on the main head, if the 2 whites are lit they mean proceed with care as the section may be occupied. If there is more than one route a "stencil" indicator is provided, displaying a variety of things depending on exactly what the route is. These are a lot more varied, for example SDG - sidings, UGL - up goods loop, DMX - down main in wrong direction, etc...

In semaphore signalling a shunt was signalled in 2 ways.

The first was by a small calling-on arm (red with horizontal white stripe) on the same post as the main arm, meaning "proceed onto an occupied line" eg. fpr a loco to couple onto a train in a station. These are not available in Trainz at all, because it means clearing a signal for a section that is occupied!
Secondly, shunts into a yard are signalled by a small (normally coloured) arm on a short doll, often bracketed out on a main post. These are made in Trainz by Francelinetony, use Bloodnok's feather targets.

Within yards, signalling was usually done by small arms, often 2 or 3 vertically above each other on the same post. In this case the top arm is for the left-most route, the meaning is the same as full size arms, do not pass when at horizontal.

There are also shunting discs, or ground signals. These are a white disc with a horizontal red stripe, and can be either UQ or LQ, single, single with a stencil indicator or 2 (or more) mounted vertically, the top one for the leftmost route. Although these are available in Trainz, (by Francelinetony again) they don't function quite right as, when off/rotated/showing green they mean proceed with care as the line ahead my be occupied, which is not supported in Trainz.

This is only just scratching the surface of shunting signals, any more questions please just ask, we'll be happy to help out :)
 
Aha! The use of stacked shunting discs has been driving me mad. I cant fathom out how to get the so-and-so's to function, although its not for the lack of effort on my part. However, if one of you gentlemen can explain to me what the actual function of these things were I would be very grateful, especially the 2 and 3 disc ones.

Furthermore, is it possible to use them 'prototypically' at least within the constrains of T12, and if so, are target boards required?

Thanks,

Bob
 
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