Bloodnok's Modelock Feather and Theatre Signals
- Thread starter Scottish
- Start date
Kennilworth
Active member
Hi Scottish
The only reference material for using bloodnoks signals that I can recall was a thread on the now defunct UKTrainz forum. Unless someone printed the thread out and is willing to share it the only other possibility might be the Wayback Machine to try to find the original thread. My attempts at using this have been fruitless but I don't really know what I'm doing with it. The Midshire Mainline route makes use of the Modelock feathers so perhaps it might be possible to deduce what they do from looking at that route.
Regards
Brian
The only reference material for using bloodnoks signals that I can recall was a thread on the now defunct UKTrainz forum. Unless someone printed the thread out and is willing to share it the only other possibility might be the Wayback Machine to try to find the original thread. My attempts at using this have been fruitless but I don't really know what I'm doing with it. The Midshire Mainline route makes use of the Modelock feathers so perhaps it might be possible to deduce what they do from looking at that route.
Regards
Brian
I believe Brian is correct, I've just tried the VSR website and the section about signal targets points to the, now defunct, UKTrainz forum. If I remember correctly the crash that was the cause of the forums demise was a bad one and that most data was irrecoverable.
Our best hope would be if James (Bloodnok) reads this and still has a copy of that guide he may wish to share - you could try sending him a PM... If you do come up with any info about modelock I would be interested in seeing it.
Chris
Our best hope would be if James (Bloodnok) reads this and still has a copy of that guide he may wish to share - you could try sending him a PM... If you do come up with any info about modelock I would be interested in seeing it.
Chris
I found this in an old Forum thread which might go some way to understanding the use of the modelock feathers and theatre boards, it is reply by James (Bloodnok):
"Modelock targets are used when you've got both theatres and feathers in an area, and you want a particular signal to use feathers or theatres. The signals will lock on to whatever type of route indication they first see, so this takes the ambiguity out.
The theatre modelock is also handy when using the diverging speedboards with theatre signals. The speedboards need the feather style target, as there is no concept of "left" or "right" in an alphanumeric indication."
http://forums.auran.com/trainz/showthread.php?8494-VSR-Theatres/page2&highlight=modelock post 27. Most of the thread is about Wen's and Adrian19's Class 442.
"Modelock targets are used when you've got both theatres and feathers in an area, and you want a particular signal to use feathers or theatres. The signals will lock on to whatever type of route indication they first see, so this takes the ambiguity out.
The theatre modelock is also handy when using the diverging speedboards with theatre signals. The speedboards need the feather style target, as there is no concept of "left" or "right" in an alphanumeric indication."
http://forums.auran.com/trainz/showthread.php?8494-VSR-Theatres/page2&highlight=modelock post 27. Most of the thread is about Wen's and Adrian19's Class 442.
It is because top class routes such as Midshires Mainline, ECML, Settle & Carlisle use Modelock feathers and Theatre signals that I would like to find out why they are used instead of normal signals and feathers. I have studied these layouts but because I do not know the theory behind the use of them, I cannot figure out a pattern.
If I cannot get the answer from the forum, I may PM Bloodnok and politely request advice.
Scottish
If I cannot get the answer from the forum, I may PM Bloodnok and politely request advice.
Scottish
shaneturner12
Tutorial Creator
From memory, the modelock assets force the preceeding signal to only display the mode given by the modelock, so if you've got modelock theatre, and a mix of theatre/feathers, it will only display the theatre (letters). Likewise, if you use Modelock Theatre but only have feathers, it will not display either.
Shane
Shane
The only time you need to use the modelocks is where you have semaphore and colour light signals at the same location, where some confusion could occur.
Otherwise you click the signal with the ? set in track objects, and then press update, and if you've set the targets correctly the signal, will say whether feather or theatre has been selected. Don't forget to exercise all the points controlled by signal so the script can learn the route setting. The only thing to watch out for is when you have a terminus, make sure you use signal type Sig 2AT, or 3AT or 4AT as appropriate, the T standing for terminating.
Otherwise you click the signal with the ? set in track objects, and then press update, and if you've set the targets correctly the signal, will say whether feather or theatre has been selected. Don't forget to exercise all the points controlled by signal so the script can learn the route setting. The only thing to watch out for is when you have a terminus, make sure you use signal type Sig 2AT, or 3AT or 4AT as appropriate, the T standing for terminating.
Modelock theatre placed beyond a signal (but before either feather or theatre boards) will mean that the signal will only attach itself and indicate any theatre track boards that are placed beyond that signal.
Modelock feather placed beyond a signal (but before either feather or theatre boards) will mean that the signal will only attach itself and indicate feather track boards that are placed beyond that signal.
Some track layouts may require the placing of both feather and theatre boards usually because 1 or more signals associated with that specific set of junctions require (s) more indications than the feathers will support (4 or more routes to the left or right) .
The S&C type junction semaphores require the placing of feather boards as per the colour light installations on junctions so that they will indicate the correct route via the raising of the correct arm .
Modelock feather placed beyond a signal (but before either feather or theatre boards) will mean that the signal will only attach itself and indicate feather track boards that are placed beyond that signal.
Some track layouts may require the placing of both feather and theatre boards usually because 1 or more signals associated with that specific set of junctions require (s) more indications than the feathers will support (4 or more routes to the left or right) .
The S&C type junction semaphores require the placing of feather boards as per the colour light installations on junctions so that they will indicate the correct route via the raising of the correct arm .
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Do you use these only as the last signal before the track end ?
and
Does the use of an invisible "final" signal (usually beyond the visible track) influence the behavior of "T" signals ?
(and thanks to everybody for your contributions to this thread, the information is very valuable).
Chris
I think of it like this.
If you have two tracks that converge into 1, then split into 2 again.
S1, S2 etc = signal 1, signal 2, etc
tTM = theatre Target Main
tTL = theatre Target Loop
fTS = feather Target straight
ftL = feather Target Left
mtt = modelock theatre target
mft = modelock feather target.
Both S1 and S2 can see feather targets for straight and left, AND theatre targets M & L.
Use of the modelock feather and modelock theatre targets will force S1 to only display theatres (Main or Loop), and S2 to display feathers (Straight or Left)
Hope that Helps
If you have two tracks that converge into 1, then split into 2 again.
Code:
---------S1----mtt---\ /--------fTL----tTL----S3---
---------S2----mft----\-----/---------fTS----tTM----S4---tTM = theatre Target Main
tTL = theatre Target Loop
fTS = feather Target straight
ftL = feather Target Left
mtt = modelock theatre target
mft = modelock feather target.
Both S1 and S2 can see feather targets for straight and left, AND theatre targets M & L.
Use of the modelock feather and modelock theatre targets will force S1 to only display theatres (Main or Loop), and S2 to display feathers (Straight or Left)
Hope that Helps
A 2AT signal will only display red or yellow aspects, so this would ideally be your last signal approaching the terminus situated at the throat of the station. You could put targets down for each platform to be displayed in the theatre box. The very last signal will normally be a bufferstop which is in effect a permanent red signal. This doesn't change in the case where you use a dummy buffer stop, and place an invisible signal or buffer stop as the last signal on a section of invisible track. Putting an extra invisible signal in is unnecessary; you only need one signal or bufferstop
There might be situations where you want to use a 3AT instead of the 2AT in the above example. For instance where you have a terminating line with a mid-platform signal (a 2AT), so that 2 trains can be berthed in the same platform at the same time. (The other platforms are ordinary terminating roads.) The train going to the furthest point away will get a green aspect at the 3AT, and yellow aspect at the 2AT. The one terminating at the nearest part of the platform will get a yellow at the 3AT and red at the 2AT.
I can't say I have ever needed to use the 4AT but it is there if required. The signal before the T signal needs to be one aspect higher. So in advance of the 2AT would be a 3A, or a 4A in advance of a 3AT if you were using 4 Aspect signals.
I can't stress how important it is to toggle all the switches in Surveyor so that the signal script can see and build up all the route logic. If you don't you will find trains in Driver waiting for the signal to work out what to do, and this will continue for each new route required. Obviously if you make any track changes then you will have to tell the signal 'to forget' and then start again flicking switches and setting up routes.
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I think (although I'm willing to be corrected) that it's usual to get two trains into 1 platform by having a calling-on subsidiary head (2 small white lights) on the 2AT signal approaching the platform, rather than a mid-platform signal. (This is the only situation where passenger trains are controlled by sub signals.) However that's not currently easily achievable in Trainz.
The point about the T signals is that they are for a terminus. On the 3AT the aspects possible are R, Y or YY, so you would never get a green at a 3AT. The difference between the 3AT and the 4AT is in the arrangement of the lamps. The 3AT has lamps Y/R/Y ,using a normal 3A head, while a 4AT uses a normal 4A head with lamps R/Y/blank/Y.
Whether you use a mid-platform signal,or not makes no difference. The 1st signal before the buffers would be a 2AT. The previous signal depends on the rest of the signals. If 4A is used in the area it would be either a 3AT or a 4AT, both capable of showing R, Y or YY. If it is a 3A area, then it would be just a normal 3A, and Stovepipe's description of the aspects shown is quite correct.
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2 trains signalled into one terminating platform and use a 2 aspect terminating signal on the approach 
You can cheat to get it work but it involves having to build a suitable signal as there's nothing currently available in Bloodnok's range with a subsidiary signal .
(I have a fixed red dorman with subsidiary that could be easily converted on the DLS if your signalling is post 2000)
Place buffer stop as usual , half way along the platform road place an invisible signal (trial and error on placing this may be needed depending on train / platform lengths and the overlap track circuit of the invisible signal)
The modified 2 aspect terminating with subsidiary is set up in it's config as a 3 aspect terminating .
The config entry for 2 yellows would be set up to actually show ( to us) 1 yellow
The config entry for 1 yellow would be set up to actually show (to us) 1 red plus subsidiary lit (2 white)
Red would be red .
Should the platform road have a short train in it sat beyond the invisible signal then the track circuit would be clear up to that signal thus allowing the train to enter and run up to it with the terminating signal signal showing red + subsidiary (actually 1 yellow)
Should the platform be occupied by a long train then the track circuit from the 2 aspect terminating up to the invisible signal would be occupied and the terminating signal would remain red .
It's not full proof as you still have to make sure that a full length train doesn't get dropped in on top of a short length one thus ending up with the second train sticking out from the platform (signalling trains as per real life) , Unless you ensured that the platform was long enough to hold a short + your longest passenger train .
The AI would see the 2 aspect terminating signal as a normal 3 aspect terminating but we would visually see the signal giving the correct aspects for allowing a train into an occupied platform .
I think it could be taken a stage further by making the invisible a fixed permissive signal (via it's config file but remember it will always be permissive once set up) which would allow the second train to draw right up to the first but I'm not sure if the current signalling logic creates a permissive that remains red until the train approaches it or whether it will it change as soon as the route is set . Should the later be the case then it would render the permissive aspect on the 2 aspect terminating redundant by making it show an actual single yellow (AI See's 2 yellows) to an approaching train when signalled into the occupied road and break the visual illusion .
You can cheat to get it work but it involves having to build a suitable signal as there's nothing currently available in Bloodnok's range with a subsidiary signal .
(I have a fixed red dorman with subsidiary that could be easily converted on the DLS if your signalling is post 2000)
Place buffer stop as usual , half way along the platform road place an invisible signal (trial and error on placing this may be needed depending on train / platform lengths and the overlap track circuit of the invisible signal)
The modified 2 aspect terminating with subsidiary is set up in it's config as a 3 aspect terminating .
The config entry for 2 yellows would be set up to actually show ( to us) 1 yellow
The config entry for 1 yellow would be set up to actually show (to us) 1 red plus subsidiary lit (2 white)
Red would be red .
Should the platform road have a short train in it sat beyond the invisible signal then the track circuit would be clear up to that signal thus allowing the train to enter and run up to it with the terminating signal signal showing red + subsidiary (actually 1 yellow)
Should the platform be occupied by a long train then the track circuit from the 2 aspect terminating up to the invisible signal would be occupied and the terminating signal would remain red .
It's not full proof as you still have to make sure that a full length train doesn't get dropped in on top of a short length one thus ending up with the second train sticking out from the platform (signalling trains as per real life) , Unless you ensured that the platform was long enough to hold a short + your longest passenger train .
The AI would see the 2 aspect terminating signal as a normal 3 aspect terminating but we would visually see the signal giving the correct aspects for allowing a train into an occupied platform .
I think it could be taken a stage further by making the invisible a fixed permissive signal (via it's config file but remember it will always be permissive once set up) which would allow the second train to draw right up to the first but I'm not sure if the current signalling logic creates a permissive that remains red until the train approaches it or whether it will it change as soon as the route is set . Should the later be the case then it would render the permissive aspect on the 2 aspect terminating redundant by making it show an actual single yellow (AI See's 2 yellows) to an approaching train when signalled into the occupied road and break the visual illusion .
I have made a suitable 2A+co signal. Its not on the DLS as, although I do have permission to release it, it will NOT be compatible with the official updated signals, when/if they are released. I'm quite happy to send it direct as cdp to anyone.2 trains signalled into one terminating platform and use a 2 aspect terminating signal on the approach
You can cheat to get it work but it involves having to build a suitable signal as there's nothing currently available in Bloodnok's range with a subsidiary signal .
(I have a fixed red dorman with subsidiary that could be easily converted on the DLS if your signalling is post 2000)
...
You could use the "Permissive Trigger, by Saxham_Market https://www.auran.com/TRS2004/DLS_viewasset.php?AssetID=223667 to only allow the invisible to go permissive when the train approaches.
Kennilworth
Active member
Hi
There are two driver commands on the DLS by elstoko, "Set Selected Signal State v4" and "Set Signal Ahead v2", which will correctly display lit calling on lights with some signals and allow trains to pass a signal at red. They don't work with all signals but do work correctly with the old Auran Signal BR series which have calling on lights attached. The commands work with the bloodnok signals but these don't display any light at all as they don't currently have any calling on light attachments. The first command requires the target signal to be named while the second one does not.
I have replaced many of the inbound King's Cross station signals with the Auran type and have had no problems getting locos to back down onto their trains when using these commands. The only other signals that I have with calling on lights are from the now defunct Railwaves payware site but their calling on lights don't light even though the loco will pass the signal. What we need now is a better looking signal with calling on lights which works in the same way as the original Auran ones.
Regards
Brian
There are two driver commands on the DLS by elstoko, "Set Selected Signal State v4" and "Set Signal Ahead v2", which will correctly display lit calling on lights with some signals and allow trains to pass a signal at red. They don't work with all signals but do work correctly with the old Auran Signal BR series which have calling on lights attached. The commands work with the bloodnok signals but these don't display any light at all as they don't currently have any calling on light attachments. The first command requires the target signal to be named while the second one does not.
I have replaced many of the inbound King's Cross station signals with the Auran type and have had no problems getting locos to back down onto their trains when using these commands. The only other signals that I have with calling on lights are from the now defunct Railwaves payware site but their calling on lights don't light even though the loco will pass the signal. What we need now is a better looking signal with calling on lights which works in the same way as the original Auran ones.
Regards
Brian
On the subject of subsidiary signals, based on what's been written here I have been messing around with a semaphore with a calling on arm. I can get it to work OK for a calling on move (main home signal is "on" sub is "off") but when the line ahead is clear both the main and sub come "off". I have read that both "off" was the practice on the Midland Railway and North Eastern Railway but not others. Does anyone know what the practice was in BR days ?
Yes you are quite right 3AT displays Y/R/Y, not green. I agree you would have a calling-on signal where two trains were to be coupled at a platform, but in the example I'm talking about the platform is split into two sections by the mid platform signal so that it can be used by two seperate trains that don't couple. Examples of this are found at the some of the the 3rd rail London terminals and at Brighton. In this instance a 3AT would display YY or Y as appropriate, and Y for all the other platforms without a mid-platform signal. I'm using this example to show where you might use a 3AT type of signal as opposed to a 2AT.