Auran love and hate relationships ending 2010

[ZecMurphy]

maybe people at Auran should go to bed at night with a recording on and continuely listen to the complaints of the people who are buying your product keeping you in a job and your families feed and just maybe it might sink in ?

This one actually made me laugh... Sorry, but it does.

Being the helpdesk, you wouldn't believe how BAD it can make you feel knowing that you will have trouble with sorting an issue out for a customer. In fact, just having to leave it a day whilst awaiting the Trainz team to investigate is bad enough to me, let alone having to leave it longer to focus on 'faster' tickets (yes, this does happen, so as to be able to spend more time on it eventually).

Believe me, if we were forced to do this, it's likely that there would be no Trainz team. Generally, putting negative in, gives negative results (seen this in friends many times). On the other hand, providing constructive comments (such as telling is the specific issues you see) is a positive method, which will generally give a positive result.

In regards to service packs... I think 90% of the games I own have at least one patch/service pack. The reason? Games have to be released eventually, so as to bring in some income to pay for the work to create said game (remember, the Trainz team are paid, they aren't volunteers!). After this, we work to fix bugs that we either couldn't fix before release (especially if it's a bug that is discovered after release), or that we didn't feel was important as another bug that was fixed.

Granted, this does mean you need to update. However, this also means that we can make improvements as we go (for example, in some updates, we improved the code for maps, to help improve performance; we also added a new material for models in TS2009 SP1; etc). They aren't all about fixing 'bugs'. If I remember right, the patches for the add-on packs (S&C, Murchison 2, Classic Cabon City, and Treez) added new items for some of the packs, as well as fixing some conflicts. At the same time, the traffic was updated to function under TS2010 (not actually a bug, since they were designed for TS2009, but an upgrade to allow them to function in a newer software).

Of course, we could just not provide service packs, and save all fixes for the next edition of Trainz. However, I don't think there would be very many that would be happy with this...

As to faulty assets out of the box, there was a known bug (note, was found after release of SP2) that caused this after patching to service pack 2. There's also a sticky in the TS2010 forum outlining how to fix this. SP3 also made improvements to prevent this. TS2010 itself should not show any faulty assets in Content Manager if you haven't attempted to modify any built-in items, except in the above situation.

 

[RoysTrainz]

Read it again and look what I not write in detail that is the real story

Absolutely, mate. Your criticism of the current state of the free DLS service is spot-on, I agree that we've got some progress to make there. The current problems are not a matter of money - while we'd love for people to pay us extra, the current situation with the free service is categorically not a way to 'force people to buy an FCT' - it's a problem with increased load on the free service, plain and simple.

My point was mainly that your post comes across as very critical in a general sense, without actually detailing what you're being critical of. It's hard for us to help improve your experience when you don't tell us where things are bad.

kind regards,

chris

Dear Chris thanks for the constructive chatter on my thinking. You are a good guy let me state this first.
The current problem with the amount of users/people trying to access I agree is not solved with money only and a sticky one with a very (sad) bad timing (xmas New year for most people more free time (youngsters).
By the way what would you do if everybody would spent one happy burger meal and drinks for Trainz maintenance every year. That FCT load would increase more than you wish for but can be solved with today's technology luckily.
Back to your question on no details on complains.
I point at one already and it is still not solved and very clumbsy handled even irritating to a certain extent. Speedtrees.
As much as I love the move and I was one of those who advised long before Trainz made the decision to move to Speedtree to get things working on that level.
What seems to be a systematic pattern is again here the 5% 95% thing JRT laughed about and he not understand the meaning of to be successful you have to go all the way and not rest at 95%.

Most speedtrees have flaws,errors or ugly and/or not work for 4 seasons at all and are still not fixed even after 4 major patches that I call sloppy.

Since trees and especially Speedtree hemlock and some others I used massively in my canadian route(s) I got reminded over and over again and that is after such a long period with no fix or even mention of a fix....sight.

Lucky Brittany created with more tears than laughs here Ultra trees which replaced most speedtrees so solved to a certain extend. Thanks Brittany.

To me speedtree technology was a very good move, not the examples created and than left for what it was.

If spent a little bit more time on fixing them all carefully listening to the forum and show yes Speedtree is a very valuable add on and makes it look fabulous by times. Trainz missed that chance and was not expensive just tuning and show yes we can!

Surveyor advanced menu you call it little detail very annoying though for years when working you have to open each time again e.g. to straighten or another function jump to another menu while working on your model jump back and have to open the bottom advanced menu over and over again.

Actually it is not an advance menu at all because it has basic functions you use all the time so that programmer was not aware of reality catching up on hem/her back 7 years ago and never changed. Just examples....

Same with faulty stuff ts2010 from before SP1 and further till now it still exists and can ruin your ultimate experience. Faulty built in you name it...

I know what to do by trial and error over the time and update as many objects as I can and make sense but each time CM3.3 decides (if by accident I restart to fast the comp and TADDeamon still closing(2 minutes) to run a complete dbase check and yes show all faulty items and need the trainz broom to clean up the fallen leaves.

Just what I call now little things as SP4 and TS2010 is much more error free (for me and what I do right now).

My biggest wish would be this trainz experience with a new pair of shoes rewritten on latest technology with a bright future ahead my best guess.

Chri enough said for today and probably you understand much better and less harsh now what I really said right???

On behalve of me,my wife Ning, my muntjac deer "Djoetje" (he is a trainz fan too!and lives with me 24 hours a day in and around the premises)and 3 labradors we wish you and your family a very peaceful and warm Xmas and successful and normal 2011.


Roy:wave:

 

[steve123]

laugh it up Zec your laughter seems to be a reflection to how that company looks at everything you must be very proud

 

[amigacooke]

if you worked for me for your comet i would sack you on the spot

Zec has a comet? A comet and a job with N3V, what more could anyone want?

 

[RoysTrainz]

Zec faulty out of the box still exist my friend

This one actually made me laugh... Sorry, but it does.

Being the helpdesk, you wouldn't believe how BAD it can make you feel knowing that you will have trouble with sorting an issue out for a customer. In fact, just having to leave it a day whilst awaiting the Trainz team to investigate is bad enough to me, let alone having to leave it longer to focus on 'faster' tickets (yes, this does happen, so as to be able to spend more time on it eventually).

Believe me, if we were forced to do this, it's likely that there would be no Trainz team. Generally, putting negative in, gives negative results (seen this in friends many times). On the other hand, providing constructive comments (such as telling is the specific issues you see) is a positive method, which will generally give a positive result.

In regards to service packs... I think 90% of the games I own have at least one patch/service pack. The reason? Games have to be released eventually, so as to bring in some income to pay for the work to create said game (remember, the Trainz team are paid, they aren't volunteers!). After this, we work to fix bugs that we either couldn't fix before release (especially if it's a bug that is discovered after release), or that we didn't feel was important as another bug that was fixed.

Granted, this does mean you need to update. However, this also means that we can make improvements as we go (for example, in some updates, we improved the code for maps, to help improve performance; we also added a new material for models in TS2009 SP1; etc). They aren't all about fixing 'bugs'. If I remember right, the patches for the add-on packs (S&C, Murchison 2, Classic Cabon City, and Treez) added new items for some of the packs, as well as fixing some conflicts. At the same time, the traffic was updated to function under TS2010 (not actually a bug, since they were designed for TS2009, but an upgrade to allow them to function in a newer software).

Of course, we could just not provide service packs, and save all fixes for the next edition of Trainz. However, I don't think there would be very many that would be happy with this...

As to faulty assets out of the box, there was a known bug (note, was found after release of SP2) that caused this after patching to service pack 2. There's also a sticky in the TS2010 forum outlining how to fix this. SP3 also made improvements to prevent this. TS2010 itself should not show any faulty assets in Content Manager if you haven't attempted to modify any built-in items, except in the above situation.

Haha steve123 I have to agree with Zec that was probably meant as a funny one for the helpdesk. The helpdesk undermanned anyway has the toughest and unrewarding job in the world and that is all you can say about it.

Faulty out of the box just check all your speedtrees and tell me if I have different ones that not work or faulty all the way.
There are others too but for the moment I not recall again exactly which one have to look back in my routes and run a check.

Roy

 

[Euphod]

Registering your Trainz copy isn't the same as creating an account on the forums. It is not a one-on-one comparison as far as I know.

Well now I'm confused. I've registered some eight versions of the game, as have many others, some less of course. So you mean to say that registering the game with Planet Auran can be done without setting up an account that allows you to participate on the forums? I'm doubtful this is the case, but I'm no rocket scientist either...

 

[RoysTrainz]

EUphod this might be true unfortunately

Well now I'm confused. I've registered some eight versions of the game, as have many others, some less of course. So you mean to say that registering the game with Planet Auran can be done without setting up an account that allows you to participate on the forums? I'm doubtful this is the case, but I'm no rocket scientist either...

Here in Asia you see more pirate copies of any product than original ones that said to register a pirate copy is not that difficult technically spoken and look at it our neigbour in the north China is probably the biggest of them all using trainz probably more than a million my best guess and not paid for.
If all these guys who have the strong and honest believe in their culture what you not can see hold and or put in a safe is not real so not pay for(look at Ocemy's remarks how he scared of his 'chinese trainz friend' getting back on him if he not release for free his stuff. Just insane but this is the real world trust me.
When i go once in a while to the mall TQom and see trainz pirate copies for 200 bath what can I say?? Very sad to see and they not call it steal in their culture...... i rest my case and hope Auran one day will start a maintenance fee. and grow and get at the same time for that amount of money a real help desk because its paid for by that.

Roy:'(

 

[pware]

so why does Auran think that its ok to sell games that require service pack to fix it .what is right and what is wrong is easy to fix the best way is to tell the truth to start with
steve

Steve, you obviously don't have any Microsoft or Adobe products on your computer, or Sun Java RLE, browser plugins, etc, etc for that matter. While the Java, Adobe Reader and plugins came free, I did pay a lot of my good money for Office 2007 and the Adobe CS4 Suite.

Yet all these products get regular updates (bug fixes, security patches, etc) far more often than Trainz does - and usually at times that are not convenient to me. How often has the popup "Windows will reboot in ..." appeared in the middle of your work?

I also have another computer running Ubuntu as its OS - it seems to spend about an hour every Saturday getting patched - and I thought Microsoft was bad with its monthly "patch Tuesday"!!!

If Trainz was a car, vacuum cleaner or packet of corn flakes I would rightly get upset at the number of recalls for upgrades and fixes - well maybe I would not get upset with free upgrades. But software products are different - they have the ability to get updated after purchase without having to go back into the garage. Do Ford, GM or Toyota offer free upgrade services to turn this years models into next years models?

And as for your most recent post ... well I would happily employ Zec in customer relations or HR management, you however IMHO, ... well that would be a different story ...

Edit: I am pleased to see that you changed your mind and edited out the offending comment in your last post.

My views are entirely my own.

Peter Ware

 

[ZecMurphy]

I apologise, my laughter was at the fact that you (in effect) want us to become less productive, which is against everything else you said. In reality, it's the only way to actually take a comment such as the one you made, as otherwise you just dig yourself into a very deep hole...

As I said, put negative, get negative out. Abusive/aggressive tickets, for example, make the reader aggressive, and this can actually mean that more time is required to create an appropriate ticket. Aggressive posts on the forums also have this effect, although generally it just makes you posts harder to read, and hence makes it difficult to actually know what issue you are experiencing.

On the other hand, less aggressive/more polite posts/tickets are far easier to read and generally make for a quicker ticket.

Saying that we should listen to complaints on repeat at night is a sure road to depression (and possibly suicide for some). It's really not an appropriate suggestion to improve the quality of service, in fact it's a negative. And that negative is more likely to do damage than good. That's what the rest of my previous reply covered... As well as a few other things.

I do understand your frustrations (it's hard not too, being the helpdesk), however your comments aren't constructive, and hence aren't helpful to improving Trainz.

One thing to remember is that no software is bug free. Well, maybe some really basic programs are, but even then it's unlikely. We could just release as-is, and provide no fixes, or we can provide updates and support for the items. Of course, we don't force you to install the service packs. So you can just use TS2010 without any updates, but I'm sure there will be something fixed in a service pack that'll find that you need...

 

[steve123]

Zec there is no need to apologise to anybody if anything i over stepped the mark and it is my fault totaly your are and always should be able to have your opinion and imput to a forum such as this and i am very sorry
kindest regards steve

 

[WindWalkr]

Most speedtrees have flaws,errors or ugly and/or not work for 4 seasons at all and are still not fixed even after 4 major patches that I call sloppy.

For the most part, we focus our service packs on fixing functionality and compatibility issues rather than improving the artwork. In some cases (for example, the Wind slider and the compatibility fixes for ATI cards) this can directly impact the visuals of the game.

There are always avenues for improving the artwork - whether that comes down to better techniques, higher detail, more attention in the LODs, or simply spending more time. At the end of the day we need to draw a line where we're happy with the quality of the art, and we do that prior to release. While it's quite common to find coding errors after the release of a product, that's generally not the case for the art.

In the case of the Speed Trees specifically, we're fairly happy with them for a first generation technology. We certainly expect to improve on the selection of available trees over time, much as we have with other asset types, but committing all our resources to building new trees while forgetting other areas of the product wouldn't really be appropriate.

Lucky Brittany created with more tears than laughs here Ultra trees which replaced most speedtrees so solved to a certain extend. Thanks Brittany.

Indeed, we appreciate Brittany's efforts here - and Jankvis, and TNM, and everyone else who has been working on pushing the state of the art with foliage.

To be clear (sometimes, I'm not sure whether people realise this or not) the UltraTreez are actually Speed Trees. While we aren't able to redistribute the Speed Tree toolset, developers who already have an appropriate license can and do build their own Speed Tree assets.

To me speedtree technology was a very good move, not the examples created and than left for what it was.

I'm not going to tell you that you are wrong, but I will say that I'm personally happy with what we've achieved so far and look forward to growing the content set in future releases.

Surveyor advanced menu you call it little detail very annoying though for years when working you have to open each time again e.g. to straighten or another function jump to another menu while working on your model jump back and have to open the bottom advanced menu over and over again.

We agree and we're looking at improving this workflow. Changing the UI around is fairly time consuming and we want to make sure that we get it right, rather than jumping from one inefficient workflow to another.

My biggest wish would be this trainz experience with a new pair of shoes rewritten on latest technology with a bright future ahead my best guess.

That would certainly be nice


Have a Merry Christmas, Roy. All the best to you and your family.

kind regards,

chris

 

[Euphod]

Can someone please clear this up for me?

If you OBTAIN a copy of Trainz from any source, don't you have to register it to use the DLS?
If you register it, don't you automatically create an account on Planet Auran, which makes you a member of the forums?
Is there some nefarious way to register your product and NOT be included in the forum's Member's List?
If you do NOT register your product, can you still access the DLS?

I find it hard to believe that the DLS free server is crippled by thieves, and also that it's crippled by the number of users trying to download unless it's some old workstation turned server in a back office somewhere.

I'm quite willing to be set straight on this, owned and thoroughly disgraced in this very thread by anyone who has the answer to my questions. Do you know the answers amigacooke? Anybody? Is this thing on?

 

[RoysTrainz]

Speedtree hemlock winter or 4 seasons

Chris thanks for the detailed exploit, very good.
Yes I know Brittany uses speedtree technology that is why i mentioned her in relationship to my problems with example hemlock 3 and 4 i think it was not complaining about windspeed but no winter version and or when they have winter the draw distance rendering isspoiling that party too where Brittany solved that or its just working fine there when draw distance is 6 km and you have 6km rendering winter foilage and not after 500 mtr summer and winter only the first few hundred meters.
For Auran i can imagine the priorities are seen different as from users who try to imitate the landscape and surroundings as close as possible to reality which is getting very close except before mentioned glitches i would call them now.
After your reply i can now understand better where and why you draw a line technically not artistically. Still I think if you sell a library that has different seasons and corresponding examples one like me would expect at least if for some reasons glitched in the final release to fix that one in an upcoming update since users cannot update or fix them properly.

To end with nice to see how Zec and steve resolved their misunderstanding or wrong wording about help desk functions i thought it was meant kind of funny and not to serious insulting them but nice to see good mannered simple word of good understanding.
Yes you can have an opinion even a strong one as long as it is backed with some evidence and meant constructive.
Sadly to many forum love to hack on english of most foreigners and annoy them for no reason at all.

Roy

 

[mcguirel]

Wow, mentioned allot in this post, so may chime in.

Yes, UltraScenery is built with a Legal Licensed SpeedTree Platform which is quite expensive. N3V mentions future selection and I can ulimately say that would be a huge task for N3V. I am doing my best to fill the void, along with the others who have been mentioned but they utilize a different platform when compiled. Truthfully, SpeedTree is the best performance platform for framerate performance.

Joosten, over the holidays let me look to see if I can work on matching hemlocks and fix the issues. My prioirty is to fix a majority of the built-in content and not sacrifice the performance while fixing the issues and will be included in the species variety pack free of charge.

My new products will demonstrate that soon, but unfortunately I've had to increase my pricing structure.

Update - Looks as if Textures will have to be generated from scratch and adds considerable time for product delivery. I'll plan on making some Hemlock UltraShrubs with this additional texture creation.
I expect a month minimum due to less time to create content now. They will infact not closely represent the Built-In due to poor design quality (referencing mesh). I have to still make due on a delayed Silver Birch Set and have allot of new content to finish in 9 days which is not allot of time.

 

[JCitron]

I agree there is room for improvement in the product, but like everything else in this world, nothing is perfect. Software takes a lot of work to get up and running with its long debug cycles, testing, testing, and more testing just to get the program to work properly. As Chris says, there's a time limit as to how much can be done before it's too late to sell the product. I'm sure the QC/QA team, the developers and the beta testers would love to send out the program as perfect as it can be, but there are deadlines to be met, and revenue to bring in so the projects can continue and be improved even more.

Personally I too have a love-hate relationship with the program. I've learned to deal with the quirks that the program has. There's enough content out there to find a replacement for something that's not quite what I'm looking for. To me the built-in items are something to get going with. This is why the great content creators are such a good asset to the community. They're able to take what was given to us as a basic building block, and give us all the great content we have today. Who would have thought 10 years ago, when Trainz was first developed, that the program would be as far along as it is with the content at this date. It ceases to amaze what these people can create - everything from the super great scripts, driver commands, and interactive industries to super rolling stock and wonderful looking buildings. The scripting alone is something to marvel at.

I agree that the interface is awkward in some way, but also easy to use at the same time. I tried so hard to create a route in MSTS and every time I tried, I could not get the program to behave. This has never been the case with Surveyor. I know that there could be improvements, and I hope that some day they'll come along, but right now I deal with the cards as they've been dealt.

Anyway, I have a lot of repsect for what Zec has to do every day. I too work in support. I am the sole on-site support person for Oracle Corporation's Burlington MA sales office. I handle support requests (tickets) and installs for over 350 local people (and growing), as well as installs, upgrades, hardware purchases, and now CISCO IP phone support. This doesn't count the field representatives, and occasionally other Oracle locations that need support as well. I thought I had it rough! This is only a handful of people, not thousands!

Being on the front line, staying positive and happy is not an easy thing to do. Many times I stay late and arrive early, usually very tired, but face the music with a smile, take the time and have the patience to listen to unhappy frustrated users, who need something done quickly, because they are under a deadline to get their job done.

Happy holidays to you too and your family, Roy.

John

 

[sniper297]

Well, I'm a n00b to Trainz, but in my opinion this website is one of the best I've seen, and the developers and tech support people have The Right Stuff. I'm coming recently from Railworks, and they're so thin skinned over there they can't stand ANY criticism of the game. Yesterday someone at the trainsim.com Railworks forum was asking why there were so many new MSTS files in our library and so few for Railworks? I made the comment that RW don''t have as many freeware creators, and something to the effect that I've already stated my opinion on why that is (the hopeless AI traffic) but nobody wants to hear it. One of the Railworks employees (the guy responsible for the hopeless AI traffic) reported my post;

http://forums.trainsim.com/vbts/showthread.php?298231&p=1650391#post1650391

This is part of this thread:
Long Absence... ?
http://forums.trainsim.com/vbts/showthread.php?298231

This is the reason that the user gave:
I would like to cite that I think this is one of the reasons that the RailWorks sections at trainsim.com is failing. Its key moderator is 'promoting' that there is nothing worth talking about.

This is despite the fact other RailWorks websites are flourishing and expanding.

If a website wants to promote and generate usage, one would expect that its staff generate positive activity.

If the staff of the site are allowed to justify inactivity with comments such as the one being reported, why not just close the RailWorks sections on TrainSim.com?

Which pretty much proves my point, I told HIM why long ago, he don't wanna hear it. I was gonna ignore the alert, but one of the admins pulled rank on me and edited out the comment. :hehe: That's what I like about this place, I can say the Trainz splined switches stink on ice and speedtrees look like Day of the Triffids and tank my framerates, and even if the devs disagree with that they at least give me the right to an opinion.

 

[JimDep]

Did you ask a question Euphrod? I didn't quite catch that.

 

[WindWalkr]

If you OBTAIN a copy of Trainz from any source, don't you have to register it to use the DLS?

You need to have an appropriate version of Trainz registered against your Planet Auran account. Strictly speaking we don't check whether it's the same version, so if you bought several you would only need to register one.

If you register it, don't you automatically create an account on Planet Auran, which makes you a member of the forums?

Technically yes. Whether you post or even read the forums is another matter.

Is there some nefarious way to register your product and NOT be included in the forum's Member's List?

I'm honestly not sure what the 'members list' entails.

If you do NOT register your product, can you still access the DLS?

As above.

I find it hard to believe that the DLS free server is crippled by thieves, and also that it's crippled by the number of users trying to download unless it's some old workstation turned server in a back office somewhere.

Believe what you will. We've given out all the information that we have to give at this stage.

Anybody? Is this thing on?

Considering that your questions seem pretty off-topic for this thread, it's not surprising that they're being overlooked

chris

 

[Euphod]

Yeah Jim, it looks like that question will never be answered with any authority. There are so many users here that know so much more than I, and are usually quick to demonstrate that fact, I thought someone might actually face the question head on.

I guess if there is no definitive answer forthcoming I shall continue to believe that whoever hosts the servers can't provide acceptable service to less than 390,000 users (all trying to download at once, of course, every moment of every day, and none of them using the First Class servers at all).

I'll reserve some bowing and scraping for whoever deigns to set this poor ole' boy straight.

Meanwhile, I'll have to see if this thing goes up to "11"...

Edit:

Oh, I see...a cross post. Thank you for gifting me with your answers Chris. As far as I can tell then you must register the game you've obtained to be able to download from the DLS. That would seem to indicate a lesser number of citizens able to download than the millions put forth somewhere above. I am thoroughly chastised, and bow and scrape to your superior knowledge, as promised. I apologize if believing the number of people trying to download may have some bearing on the demands of the servers, but I do indeed believe just that.

 

[RoysTrainz]

he Brittany good to hear you and keep up the outstanding job

Wow, mentioned allot in this post, so may chime in.

Yes, UltraScenery is built with a Legal Licensed SpeedTree Platform which is quite expensive. N3V mentions future selection and I can ulimately say that would be a huge task for N3V. I am doing my best to fill the void, along with the others who have been mentioned but they utilize a different platform when compiled. Truthfully, SpeedTree is the best performance platform for framerate performance.

Joosten, over the holidays let me look to see if I can work on matching hemlocks and fix the issues. My prioirty is to fix a majority of the built-in content and not sacrifice the performance while fixing the issues and will be included in the species variety pack free of charge.

My new products will demonstrate that soon, but unfortunately I've had to increase my pricing structure.

Update - Looks as if Textures will have to be generated from scratch and adds considerable time for product delivery. I'll plan on making some Hemlock UltraShrubs with this additional texture creation.
I expect a month minimum due to less time to create content now. They will infact not closely represent the Built-In due to poor design quality (referencing mesh). I have to still make due on a delayed Silver Birch Set and have allot of new content to finish in 9 days which is not allot of time.

Good reply my dear and one thing I told you already a few times you not have to say you are sorry for making a new pricing structure.
You have to make it work for you and your customers and those out there like me and many others in the near future will reckon what you did and do and need to earn a fair price not just deliver to bounty hunters.
Your stuff I am still very happy because you saved me from stopping trainz at all not to long ago.
For the hemlock there was no replacement and it is a good looking tree and the wind speed oh its not dramatic but 4 seasons is a must for my standards of working right now no way back to compromises.
Keep up the good work and we stay in touch!
Sorry i cannot compete in the video contest (its not for the price money just for the fun) because the newly opened fishing park resort here is going so well it needs my attention to help Ning's brother and wife running it and cope and grow with it as any other successful business needs professional and disciplined approach and that is hard to find and teach in the Thai culture.
Ning my wife does very well but falls back many times to her culture background and attitude and gives me shivers how they can think of that.
Anyway Brittany to ytou and your family from all here including the entire cattle and dogs a very happy and quiet Xmas and most successful 2011.

Roy,Ning and crew:wave: