Route rot... Something weird happened to my big route...

Everything has been fine with this route for years. Recently I did a bit of work on it, even added a new section and removed some others I didn't like. Today I started at one end of the route and did some track tweaking because since I started this route over a decade ago, my techniques have gotten better and I felt it was time to relay some of the track, signal things betters, even did some retexturing as well. As I followed the line along, I came to one of the many bridges on the route. The bridges were there, but the abutments and some of the bridge piers were either missing, or in some cases the abutments were facing the wrong direction. On other bridges the piers were missing from view, meaning they were buried at one end of the bridges under the backwards bridge abutments and had to be moved into place.

This wasn't the only thing. As I worked my way along the route, I found that some strips of terrain had zeroed themselves along the edges of baseboards and lost their texture. Where the terrain was lower than zero, it raised up forming a dyke if it was located in a riverbed. Since this is a hand-crafted landscape and not a DEM generated one, it wasn't as bad to fix, but still quite annoying. This was in and around only one portion of the route and not another area which had me puzzled.

As I worked down the line, I came across numerous broken crossings and intersections which I had to replace or rebuild, connect the roads and tracks and level all over again. This too wasn't found through out either; just in one particular section of the route.

It's like the route is rotting on the inside like a big pumpkin or squash. Is it time to sadly bin this lifelong project and start a fresh?

John

More than a little upsetting when something like this happens John, as for the cause, well it would have been started in TS2004 (?) has it been in all the versions since ? If you get my drift I think that it's simply been through too many changes and what you are seeing is just a natural ageing process or reaction to the cumulative effect of a lot of small changes.

Can you definitely say that these glitches are getting worse and / or that there are more of them all of the time ? Is it simply those you have noticed since you blew off the dust and started amending and saving ? If it's the latter and the glitches are finite and fixable then what's to stop you carrying on with the route ?

Either way, good luck !

Chris

Happens to me quite often, John. I thought it was me, but now I think otherwise.

Bill

itareus said:

More than a little upsetting when something like this happens John, as for the cause, well it would have been started in TS2004 (?) has it been in all the versions since ? If you get my drift I think that it's simply been through too many changes and what you are seeing is just a natural ageing process or reaction to the cumulative effect of a lot of small changes.

Can you definitely say that these glitches are getting worse and / or that there are more of them all of the time ? Is it simply those you have noticed since you blew off the dust and started amending and saving ? If it's the latter and the glitches are finite and fixable then what's to stop you carrying on with the route ?

Either way, good luck !

Chris

Click to expand...

The route has definitely been through the different versions on my station line except for a brief test in TC1&2, but I imported it into there and didn't remain there too long. I can't say the glitches are getting worse as I was able to repair them yesterday, opened the route for edit today, and they did not reappear. I'm going to continue on and see what happens.

As you know I'd hate to give up the work I've been doing on it because I've had the route for so long. It's not quite complete yet either. I have two remaining sections to finish up which will bring the route to a point where it's supposed to be - a big mill town connected the ocean. It's taken about 10 years to get to where it is because I had started from scratch once before after TRS2004 SP4 came out and I had rebuilt the beginnings of the route at that point. This iteration loses the Eastport end, where I removed it and this is the section I was going to work on when I discovered the mess. At this point, I'm not sure if I'll use a DEM or continue hand crafting the landscape.

John

HiBaller said:

Happens to me quite often, John. I thought it was me, but now I think otherwise.

Bill

Click to expand...

Nice to know we're in the same rotten club.

I wonder why this happens...

John

Over the years, I scoffed at the idea that software got "tired" after being used over and over. But, I'm not so sure about that. It may seem like it is getting tired, but what may be happening is that the OS around it changing and evolving enough to cause the original intent of various routines in the software to change slightly. For example, a call to a DLL might cause the OS to bring it into RAM and link it in a slightly different manner which could cause the original call to encounter conditions it wasn't prepared to meet (like slightly corrupt stack calls and such). This could mean that as a route is loaded, some routines are skipped, but not noticed by the overall core of the program. This sounds strange, and I'm probably talking through my ... hat ... but it does seem that way sometimes.

Bill

HiBaller said:

Over the years, I scoffed at the idea that software got "tired" after being used over and over. But, I'm not so sure about that. It may seem like it is getting tired, but what may be happening is that the OS around it changing and evolving enough to cause the original intent of various routines in the software to change slightly. For example, a call to a DLL might cause the OS to bring it into RAM and link it in a slightly different manner which could cause the original call to encounter conditions it wasn't prepared to meet (like slightly corrupt stack calls and such). This could mean that as a route is loaded, some routines are skipped, but not noticed by the overall core of the program. This sounds strange, and I'm probably talking through my ... hat ... but it does seem that way sometimes.

Bill

Click to expand...

Interesting and not talking out of your hat either. This could also be an unnoticed hardware issue too that's causing problems. The program may work fine because the program was accessing memory in a different memory location, however, now that the OS has been changed, the program has now moved it's data elsewhere. The underlying system may have RAM problems and because we don't all use ECC RAM with parity, we now have some unreported data corruption.

John

This is why I will always keep my Surveyor route work in TRS2006 format, and do all future editing in the TRS2006 program Session ... I only use TS10 and TS12 as a temporary testing program, and import a copy of my TRS2006 route into those higher versions, to test it how the route works, or just to "Test Run the Route" in driver.

I had this two or three years ago (think it was in TS12) with a big Russian narrow gauge route I was trying to do, suddenly found around 50% of the textured tiles had lost their texture and reverted to plain baseboard. Ended up losing the route as I hadn't kept a current backup and couldn't face retexturing several 100 virtual sq km of blank area. On investigation I wondered if this was memory related as, at the time, the user backup process was still set to 7 and consequently Trainz had proceeded to fill my hard drive with data to the point where there was only a few Mb left. So no HD for virtual memory etc. I can only assume at some critical point the textures failed to load, I saved the route and of course overwritten/gone forever. From that point on I've always ensured the maximum data user back ups are incremented to a maximum of one.

Track disconnecting at interactives is a fairly frequent and well discussed occurrence. Again I wonder if memory related another school of thought is that it might be tied to shutting down the PC before Taddaemon completed. Supposedly finally squashed in 61388 (though I personally stick with 49922) so hopefully not an issue going forward into TANE either.

Shutting down the PC isn't a consideration for me, Vern. Mine all run 24/7/365 unless shut down on purpose for maintenance. I have a 2Kw UPS backup that powers them all for around an hour and then they do an orderly shutdown due to a program I wrote a long time ago that communicates with the "Master" UPS-controlled computer who orders the remotes to shut down.

Anyway, you could be right about the memory issue, except I am on a 64-bit gaming machine with 8GB of RAM (although Trainz doesn't use anywhere near all of it, which is a lowdown shame) and the route is newly created in TS2012/CP1/HF-whatever. I do see patches of textures that have either been swept clean OR some sort of substitution has taken place on imported routes. In one case, all the "grass" had been swapped with "parking lot" textures and it really looked strange.

I also have an opinion on why interactives get disconnected from track. When you first load an imported route into Surveyor, if the game lays the track first, then adds the interactives, then I can see why they are disconnected as track must be dragged up to and "clicked" to the interactive. If the game would put down the interactive FIRST, and then lay the track, I bet we wouldn't have the problem we do.

Bill

Vern,

Like Bill I keep my system on pretty much 24/7/365 and also keep it plugged into a decent UPS - a 1KVA unit. Mine communicates to my PC via a USB interface and software supplied by APC. When the power goes out, the system goes through a safe shutdown. I also have plenty of RAM with 32GB, and the program is on its own 2TB hard drive so we can't say it's running out of disk space.

In my case I think it's a bit of old data, and through all the merging and building something got hosed. The good news is the stuff I repaired has remained so. I will continue on my route to its completion, hopefully soon as it has been quite a long journey with this project.

John

Sounds like some of the problems we had with building the DHR. It started out on TS2004, went to TS2006, and ended up on TS2010 for release. It was well received so we updated it from TS2010 to TS2012. I don't think Peter or myself are up to doing it yet again for T:ANE (especially since I have no plans to buy it).

Bill

HiBaller said:

Sounds like some of the problems we had with building the DHR. It started out on TS2004, went to TS2006, and ended up on TS2010 for release. It was well received so we updated it from TS2010 to TS2012. I don't think Peter or myself are up to doing it yet again for T:ANE (especially since I have no plans to buy it).

Bill

Click to expand...

I don't think you'll need to update the DHR. Peter already tried it and said it loads up okay, I think.

John

Cool. I must have missed that thread. I do know it runs just fine in TS2012 with latest SP's and HF's.

Bill

Hi all,

This will be a long post so bear with me.

Introduction

I was about to open a topic but then I saw this one and I have (I think) the same problem. So thank you for opening a thread about it: JCitron.

Over the last few weeks I made great progress on my Electro Island Route. I made a Landbridge on a separate map called: Colden Landbridge. So I had the stand-alone map ready and then merged it into my existing Electro Island map.

This can be seen in the Japan Forum in post #1662

http://forums.auran.com/trainz/showthread.php?3916-Japan/page111

What went wrong?

In the last days Trainz 12 had (build 48429) some annoying crashes. So today I performed an extended database repair because I thought that would solve the problems. Boy was I wrong. After the database repair I've loaded my route and could not believe my eyes. Large parts of my map seemed to have vanished.

Indeed just as the topic starter describes. The textures are gone and the landscape is flattened. Here are some illustrations of what happened:

First my Build number is TS12 Build 48429.

The map after I loaded it:



How the see is now 'flattened'. As you can see the textures are gone and the height also. The track and bridges are in place though.



Another example of the damage:



Also there appeared some weird 'spikes':



Now I have a backup of both maps before the 'merge'. However the Electro Island part (first picture the green parts ) also got a major upgrades so I can not simply do a re-merge of both maps.

Easiest would be to try to delete the baseboards of the 'Landbridge' part and re-merge that part. How do you delete baseboards by the way? I've used the search on the forum but could not find an explanation on how to do it. Only the remarks that some people are in the process of deleting/ or have deleted baseboards. So a step by step description would be very helpful. Also because I cannot find a knob in Surveyor for this task. I can only delete layers.

Now after the first shock I went into the content manager and my route was suddenly showing 90 errors and 120 unknown dependencies. I've tried to open them in a list but it seems a near impossible task to manually backtrack them all.

I then went into Trainz/Users/Backup and went a few days back. I made a new version of my route and copied and pasted the old KUID Table into the config file of new route (I've backed up the newer one of course beforehand). Because full backups didn't work either. In that way I was able to get rid of the errors but the problem with the height and missing textures still remain.

The reason I did that was because the newer KUID table had about 120 KUIDS more in one day time (so compared with the backup a day earlier). About the same amount as the errors I got in CM while I did add or downloaded any additional content since the merges. Long story short it worked for me. There seem to be no missing items on inspection in Surveyor and the route is now validating error free in Content Manager.

So I'm now at a crossroad.
- Either redo the sea and heights again and retexture. This should be about 2 days work.
- Or delete the baseboards (if possible) and remerge the standalone Landbridge map.
- OR should I go to the newest build by patching TS12 first before proceeding further?

So I need some guidance. Any help is appreciated.

I've had that happen only once, but that was back in TRS2006 and way before there was such a thing as an EDR so I don't think that caused your issue. It may have been the corruption from the crashes.

I've gotten some spikes like that in a few places, randomly that is, which I ended up flattening down and coloring. Some became a rocky island chain because they were off my coast. A happy accident I suppose if you want to call it that. In other places I ended up with gigantic voids that went down to the bottom of the earth. I had to raise these up and texture them again to the appropriate texture in the area. They're a pain to find because they can be in the middle of the woods, or under a building, which causes some buildings to disappear into the earth.

You can delete baseboards by going to the topology tool and clicking on the advanced button on the bottom part. There is the tool there to delete and even add blank zero-height boards if you wish. Keep in mind that a delete is permanent, so ensure you have backups, which I you said you have.

Now with missing textures, etc. Go into Content Manager and view faulty assets. You may see some. Highlight them and view errors and warnings. Any errors shown in the list will disappear and your content will be available to you. Any that do not repair need to be fixed. You might want to also check for any content that's been left open for edit. This too can prevent the stuff from showing up. You need to commit these before they work.

John

JCitron said:

I've had that happen only once, but that was back in TRS2006 and way before there was such a thing as an EDR so I don't think that caused your issue. It may have been the corruption from the crashes.

I've gotten some spikes like that in a few places, randomly that is, which I ended up flattening down and coloring. Some became a rocky island chain because they were off my coast. A happy accident I suppose if you want to call it that. In other places I ended up with gigantic voids that went down to the bottom of the earth. I had to raise these up and texture them again to the appropriate texture in the area. They're a pain to find because they can be in the middle of the woods, or under a building, which causes some buildings to disappear into the earth.

You can delete baseboards by going to the topology tool and clicking on the advanced button on the bottom part. There is the tool there to delete and even add blank zero-height boards if you wish. Keep in mind that a delete is permanent, so ensure you have backups, which I you said you have.

Now with missing textures, etc. Go into Content Manager and view faulty assets. You may see some. Highlight them and view errors and warnings. Any errors shown in the list will disappear and your content will be available to you. Any that do not repair need to be fixed. You might want to also check for any content that's been left open for edit. This too can prevent the stuff from showing up. You need to commit these before they work.

John

Click to expand...

Ok. Thanks John. BTW I have now no errors on the route in CM by doing the KUID trick that I described late in my post. But I will take the time in the coming days to fix as much errors on items in CM as I can. BTW. The spikes only seem at sea. But your problem then different than mine? I thought I had the same thing by reading your opening post.

Anyway thanks. I will try deleting the baseboards.

pagroove said:

Ok. Thanks John. BTW I have now no errors on the route in CM by doing the KUID trick that I described late in my post. But I will take the time in the coming days to fix as much errors on items in CM as I can. BTW. The spikes only seem at sea. But your problem then different than mine? I thought I had the same thing by reading your opening post.

Anyway thanks. I will try deleting the baseboards.

Click to expand...

The problem might actually be similar. Given the age of my route, there could have been some data corruption. In your case, the crash might have caused the problem.

You're welcome... and good luck. Let us know if you have any questions or problems with fixing the content.

John

I have found that the Spikes and Voids are caused by replacing one texture with another using the 'replace assets' tool. That tool does NOT work properly (and never has, actually) except in a very limited extent. I NEVER allow it to do more than ONE board if I have to use it at all. You can find every void (and spike for that matter) by going into wireframe mode (F9 key). They show up easily in that view.

As for merging. In TS2012, that is a very problematic operation at best. Most of the time, it will fail with all sorts of cosmetic and content failures - some spectacular (like spikes and voids) and others not so easy to find - like disconnected industries and the like. I really wish that N3V had fixed TS2012 before flying off the handle and attempting a wholly new version (T:ANE). All they are doing, in my estimation, is driving others away from the game - some of which are long-time builders who have become disgusted with Trainz and its poor performance.

Bill

Nothing like this ever, ever, happened with the good ol' 04 & 06 program ... Not until the supposedly superior, new fangled, 09, 10, 12 came along ... Now more new problems with T:ANE ... Sometimes something "NEW", is not always better than something "OLD", (obsolete 04 & 06 program). I'm sticking with 06 forever in surveyor ... and only test running my completed 06 routes in 10 & 12.