Trainz and DRM

[shaneturner12]

You would have difficulty stopping them (in a legal sense at least) as the only way it could be done is under contract or consumer law, but in most cases there isn't actually a contract present, and under consumer law there are loopholes as well.

Licensing is one of those areas where consumers can run into problems quite easily.

Shane

 

[clam1952]

I'm well aware of that, but, while it may be technically true, that doesn't mean we the customers have to hand over to N3V the technical capability to change the rules or to deactivate our purchases whenever they feel like it.

We or rather some, are doing a lot of assuming to the point of paranoia, we don't know yet what they are going to implement if anything. Why would they even feel like deactivating your product? Where is the sense in doing that other than maybe for illegal activity?

Negative threads like this I feel are very damaging to the future of Trainz and are fuelling the rumour mill with theory already being interpreted as fact by those who inevitably do not read threads properly and misinterpret what they see.

 

[norfolksouthern37]

I have NEVER had Windows (on a machine that has no internet access) send me an error that it needs to be connected to the internet to "re-validate" it's authenticity, AFTER being originally registered and activated, or it would no longer be useable. Once and done. And Microsoft is a large enough company, that their "Phone activation" system will more than likely, always be available.

It WILL happen if changes are made to the system though. I have had this happen before. It is a valid point though, you only accept this DRM because you think Microsoft will always be around?

 

[RRSignal]

We or rather some, are doing a lot of assuming to the point of paranoia, we don't know yet what they are going to implement if anything. Why would they even feel like deactivating your product? Where is the sense in doing that other than maybe for illegal activity?

Negative threads like this I feel are very damaging to the future of Trainz and are fuelling the rumour mill with theory already being interpreted as fact by those who inevitably do not read threads properly and misinterpret what they see.

If you had bothered to read the original post in this thread, the purpose is to get an official statement from Tony, or at least from someone at N3V as to future DRM implementation.

Smart people look at trends for a variety of reasons. Some want to guesstimate what the future holds. Some want to know if an industry, stock, or even a particular product (like Trainz) is worth investing in. Of course, some don't care.

I realize that there are some folks who have adopted a wait-and-see attitude towards Trainz. That's fine. But, we already know they've implemented some form of DRM - that was dragged out of N3V in June. Is it really unreasonable to expect that they will expand it to the entire game? Especially as both anti-DRM and pro/neutral-DRM folks have admitted that DRM is already been widely used outside of Trainz. And, I'm not even getting into the silent, underhanded way in which N3V implemented this DRM such that most (if not all) of us who beta-tested the patch didn't even know about it until months after its public release, and only then after the truth being dragged out of them.

As for illegal activity, what "illegal activity" were all those purchasers of Yahoo, Wal-Mart and Microsoft content engaged in when those companies decided to pull the plug and leave their customers with worthless content? What illegal activity were all those legal purchasers of e-books engaged in when Amazon got in a licensing dispute and remotely deleted those bought-and-paid-for products off of customer's Kindles?

BTW, I'm trying to avoid derailing this topic with outside links and references, but I know somebody's going to ask for "proof". Well here it is:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/18/technology/companies/18amazon.html?_r=0

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/22/amazon-kindle-deleted-remotely-ebooks-drm_n_2001952.html

http://arstechnica.com/uncategorize...s-yahoo-music-going-dark-taking-keys-with-it/


Again, Tony and other N3V representatives are welcome to set the record straight.

 

[shaneturner12]

In terms of N3V's proof, they already have it with the fact that some unscrupulous users decide to pirate the software (the illegal activity you refer to) and probably the addon packs as well. You can blame the pirates for the DRM coming into being.

Shane

 

[RRSignal]

In terms of N3V's proof, they already have it with the fact that some unscrupulous users decide to pirate the software (the illegal activity you refer to) and probably the addon packs as well. You can blame the pirates for the DRM coming into being.

Funny, those users uploaded it to the DLS. Last time I checked, N3V controls the DLS, and could have easily removed the offending content, without having to impose DRM.

 

[shaneturner12]

Not the same activity I'm referring to. I'm referring to users who illegally get hold of Trainz via dodgy methods, which affect the rest of us in one way or another.

I know what you are referring to, and that's illegal cloning of content (cloning someone's content and uploading it to the DLS). N3V do take action against users who do this and remove such content when contacted by the owner of the content.

Shane

EDIT: You will probably find that piracy is the main reason nowadays why DRM is introduced.

 

[JCitron]

I have NEVER had Windows (on a machine that has no internet access) send me an error that it needs to be connected to the internet to "re-validate" it's authenticity, AFTER being originally registered and activated, or it would no longer be useable. Once and done. And Microsoft is a large enough company, that their "Phone activation" system will more than likely, always be available.

It can happen, and Shane is correct. The check happens at every boot up. Windows phones home and reports that it is a valid install when it is connected to the net. Check your Event log.

This is in the Applications log and is reported in the Security-SPP:

For the OS:
The Software Protection service has completed licensing status check.
Application Id=0ff1ce15-a989-479d-af46-f275c6370663
Licensing Status=
1: 41499869-4103-4d3b-9da6-d07df41b6e39, 1, 1 [(0 [0x00000000, 1, 0], [(?)( 1 0x00000000)(?)( 2 0x00000000 3 0 msft:rm/algorithm/hwid/4.0 0x00000000 0)(?)(?)(?)(?)])(1 )(2 )]

For MS Office 2013:
The Software Protection service has completed licensing status check.
Application Id=0ff1ce15-a989-479d-af46-f275c6370663
Licensing Status=
1: 064383fa-1538-491c-859b-0ecab169a0ab, 1, 0 [(0 [0xC004F014, 0, 0], [(?)(?)(?)(?)(?)(?)(?)(?)])(1 )(2 )]
2: 090506fc-50f8-4c00-b8c7-91982a2a7c99, 1, 0 [(0 [0xC004F014, 0, 0], [(?)(?)(?)(?)(?)(?)(?)(?)])(1 )(2 )]
3: 0bc1dae4-6158-4a1c-a893-807665b934b2, 1, 0 [(0 [0xC004F014, 0, 0], [(?)(?)(?)(?)(?)(?)(?)(?)])(1 )(2 )]

Etc... There are about 30 of them.

(These aren't license keys - they are GUIDs for the applications).

I had something go wrong on my Alienware which made Windows invalid. I had to reauthorize the OS otherwise I'd be locked out. This was an issue for over a year that I ended up doing a reinstall to get rid of. No matter what I tried, using various techniques from Microsoft and other tech sites, did not resolve the problem.

John

 

[RRSignal]

Not the same activity I'm referring to. I'm referring to users who illegally get hold of Trainz via dodgy methods, which affect the rest of us in one way or another.

Please, I'd like to see what proof you have.

EDIT: You will probably find that piracy is the main reason nowadays why DRM is introduced.

Erm, that's highly debatable, and both I and others have shown how, assuming just for the sake of discussion that was the stated original purpose, that's not what DRM is really used for in the real world. In the real world, it's often if not usually used for after-sale control or deactivation of a legitimate purchase.

 

[shaneturner12]

The proof is across the forums. Take KorikovaVL80 for example. Whilst that user's problems was an unfortunate result of an incident involving the Russian railway system, it's places like that that cause the issues. Even the moderators here can probably tell you that there are cases of piracy, although the amount that actually crop up on here are probably only a small portion of the ones who actually do it.

Shane

 

[mikeaust]

Piracy is being brought up as a reason for DRM. Piracy is always going to be around, because when you try to block things, someone will find a way around it.
To me piracy is akin to to shoplifting. So what do retailers do about it? The factor a cost into their merchandise to cover it. Thats why we pay such a high price for CDs because anyone can copy a CD these days.
So the simple answer is to charge a bit more in the first place. The other way is to charge a reasonable price and then fewer will go to the trouble of copying and more will purchase your product.
cheers,
Mike

 

[paulhobbs]

After 70 replies and 1115 views I think we can safely assume about three people really see DRM as a problem and if I was running N3V I wouldn't be having sleepless nights worrying about those lost sales.

Paul

 

[shaneturner12]

I agree that piracy is always going to be around, although some people will always pirate something even if the price is reasonable, just to show it can be done. As many people know here, I dislike people who engage in piracy (not the Jolly Roger kind), and I know N3V and the moderators probably take a dim view of them as well. Unfortunately, whilst there are sites around that allow such activity, and people who engage in such activity, we are likely to see more and more DRM and similar measures like price increases.

Shane

 

[RRSignal]

The proof is across the forums. Take KorikovaVL80 for example. Whilst that user's problems was an unfortunate result of an incident involving the Russian railway system, it's places like that that cause the issues. Even the moderators here can probably tell you that there are cases of piracy, although the amount that actually crop up on here are probably only a small portion of the ones who actually do it.

I know piracy exists, but I'm interested to know if you know how material is pirated or how widespread the problem is...and isn't. [Hint: Railworks/TS2xxx, which has Steam's highly-touted callback DRM, is far more popular among pirates than Trainz and it's piddling serial number protection. I don't think I can say anything more without possibly violating the CoC...]

In the case of KorikovaVL, she allegedly got a disc from a railway employee. I don't recall her saying she had to enter a serial number, so her software was apparently cracked just as surely as a callback DRM-protected game.

 

[amigacooke]

Piracy is always going to be around, because when you try to block things, someone will find a way around it.

Well that's good news then, we can all use the free version and hope developers enjoy working for nothing.

 

[RRSignal]

After 70 replies and 1115 views I think we can safely assume about three people really see DRM as a problem and if I was running N3V I wouldn't be having sleepless nights worrying about those lost sales.

Paul

There are no DRM fans (besides possibly yourself) versus a few folks who are neutral or waiting to see what happens before making a decision whether or not to purchase.

So, yeah, they should worry.

 

[amigacooke]

There are no DRM fans (besides possibly yourself) versus a few folks who are neutral or waiting to see what happens before making a decision whether or not to purchase.

So, yeah, they should worry.

They'd only have to worry if the intention was to implement further DRM. If not, then there's nothing for anyone to worry about.

 

[paulhobbs]

There are no DRM fans (besides possibly yourself) versus a few folks who are neutral or waiting to see what happens before making a decision whether or not to purchase.

So, yeah, they should worry.

If I'm so keen on DRM why have I just released a freeware loco and withdrawn my Payware?

Paul

 

[RRSignal]

They'd only have to worry if the intention was to implement further DRM. If not, then there's nothing for anyone to worry about.

An illogical conclusion, unsurprisingly. A normal company, run by normal people, would worry about the potential loss of paying customers and want to try to address it. This thread is the chance for N3V to do just that.

 

[RRSignal]

If I'm so keen on DRM why have I just released a freeware loco and withdrawn my Payware?

Don't know, but you seem to defend DRM when it comes up. But I did leave the possibility open in my above comment that you might not be a fan of DRM, with the word "possibly". But, the reasons for closing up your shop and uploading your stuff were given by you in your payware thread. I really couldn't care less about your content or your reasons for moving from payware to freeware, since they are not germane to this topic.