Trainz and DRM

If Trainz

a) became reliant on an internet connection to allow me to play

and/or
b) required a monthly subscription to play
,

I would no longer be willing to support this game or the company. I'm happy to pay to install the game, and I'm happy to pay for certain payware packs if I have sufficient disposable income available, but I want to own, not rent.
 
That is a concern, but it would only apply to those elements of Trainz that require 'call back' DRM, which as of now is N3V DLC. Incidently, I don't use any of my N3V DLC at the moment as it requires a 'Windows' dongle. :)

Ok, But, let's say N3V takes the next logical step and installs some form of callback DRM on the game itself. Would you ditch Trainz if you knew that was to be included in the next patch or version?

It's a pretty likely scenario that N3V WILL apply some form of DRM on the game itself, not just the DLC, based on the following:

1. It's the trend of the industry. Trainz is fairly unusual, AFAIK, in that it's one of the few modern, non-indie products without some form of DRM ('callback'). The "other" sim has had it for years by way of Steam, to say nothing of other sims and games.

2. The current Kickstarter project amounts to a pre-payment, pre-release purchase of the game, at least depending on the amount. So, you've already bought the product, even if you don't want or can't use the product due to the DRM. That's why it would be helpful to have a commitment from N3V as to whether or not and what degree of DRM the new product (TANE/E2) will have.

3. Continued financial support likely will encourage more DRM; only a loss of financial and consumer support might discourage it. Ultimately, this is what it all comes down to.
 
Here's a question for you. Would you rather have DRM or having to use the old method of installing a .ja file,entering serial numbers into the Trainz Options box and having to endure a database repair as a result?

I will be honest with you, the former would be better for me, although it would be nice if N3V implemented an offline mode like Steam has so that Trainz can be used offline without losing access to DLC content. Anyway, Trainz is designed to be used online anyway with the Multiplayer feature and for picking up DLS updates. Why would the DRM make any difference (apart from preventing modification of DLC content, but that's due to Multiplayer requirements).

Shane
 
Well just like to have my say.

Well I'd be happy to make a substantial donation to the kickstart venture, (although I find the detail of each proposal very vague ), however for this to happen I would have to receive an absolute guarantee that the T2 trainz is not going to become a subscription based or DRM based version. I have spent a decade in Trainz working on my pride and joy project and many many years of work to go.

If N3V should go belly up, or change the rules in some fashion, my project is gone, I'm not prepared to give this power to N3V, I'm happy to stay in TS10



I am taking Mr. Hilliam up on an offer to another poster and myself to outline the issues with Trainz' DRM system.

This should be in the T2 and kickstart threads people should know the full story before donating money, or getting there hopes up over some fantastic new version



I look forward to someone from N3V making some definitive statement about the state of a new version of Trainz with a Subscription DRM type model, but I'm not holding my breath, There silence on the matter can only mean one thing.


RRSignal keep up the good fight mate you are doing a good job, I fully support everything you have said on the subject over the last months, personally I can't be bothered with this crap but I'm glade you are, I'm just happy off in my TS10 world.
I'm definitely of the opinion that N3V will put DRM on the game itself.


Cheers

Lots
 
So, Mr. Hilliam, I hope you can understand why myself and quite a few other users have expressed unwillingness to continue supporting Trainz. There are better happy media which can strike a balance between users' needs and N3V's.

Just one sentence: As long as the new TS version has/will have DRM, i'll not buy it :)

I think i am not the only one who thinks like that...

have a nice day,


Felix :wave:
 
the only thing i can add to this thread really is that you should really look in to the actual purpose of the kickstarter, as you seem to miss that entirely.
 
the only thing i can add to this thread really is that you should really look in to the actual purpose of the kickstarter, as you seem to miss that entirely.

I think you are missing the point, why should you donate to something that does not meet with your expectations, N3V should really state there intentions before asking for money, there has been lots said about DRM over the last few months they should state there position, its a pity you have such a vested interest in the subject you lack creditability.

Cheers

Lots
 
I think you are missing the point, why should you donate to something that does not meet with your expectations, N3V should really state there intentions before asking for money, there has been lots said about DRM over the last few months they should state there position, its a pity you have such a vested interest in the subject you lack creditability.

Cheers

Lots

what the hell are you talking about?
 
RRsignal, I could not have done half as good a job at laying out the facts of the matter than you yourself have, and I thank and aplaude your for doing so.

You've done such a fine job, that there is not much I can add, except my support. I am fully opposed to anything more than an in-game serial number confirmation system, such as implemented in TS12 Pre SP1 and older products.

I only began using Trainz products a few years ago, because I had a falling-out with the owner of the largest MSTS forum on the planet, but I am more than willing to swallow my pride, and return to that community if the current trend of N3V's implementation of DRM continues in the Trainz franchise.

My concerns with DRM;

1. I paid a premium price for the right to use software, DRM gives the vendor the ability to take that right away at any undetermined future time, for any undetermined future reason, without issuing to me a refund of my investment.
--A prime example of this is Railworks2012. I had invested quite a sum of money in the core game, and a good bit of DLC: I was forced to either terminate my use of the product and forfeit my purchase price of the DLC, OR agree to allow them to update my application and control what is/is not installed on my computer. I chose to discontinue my use of the product. They lost a customer because they made a business choice that I did not agree to.

2. As was mentioned, at any point in time, N3V may decide that "Trainz for PC" is no longer a viable and cash producing product, and may discontinue support in any form, including removal of "means to activate" previously sold products.
--A recent example; Several years ago, I purchased Coral Paint Shop Pro X3. I installed it on each of my computers (2 desktops, and 2 laptops = 4 activations). Recently, I decided to clean out 2 of the 4 computers, and did a complete format and reinstall of Windows, followed by reinstalling all software. I was able to install PSPx3 on my desktop computer and activate it (5th activation), but after installing on my laptop, I was told I had exceeded my allowed number of activations vis their "phone home" online activation system. OK, GREAT! So I proceeded to call the 1-800 phone number to activate over the phone...not to be allowed, as they disconnected the number supplied in the software "for assistance activating" ...GRRRRRr!
---Having gotten just about as frustrated as could be, I finally found an email applet on their website (for help with purchasing a new vesion PSPx5/6, ironically) and submitted a request for an explaination. I was told I would need to purchase a NEW version of PSP, because the PSPx3 version I had was no longer supported. I explained over the course of a dozen emails back and forth that I did not need "support", I just needed to have my existing-fully functional-not broken software activated.
-----After several weeks of back and forth, they FINALLY gave me a one time activation for my laptop, but told me in no uncertain terms; If I ever had to re-activate it again, I would have to shell out another $150.00 for a new version, which would only be supported for approximately 24 months.

This example actually hits on the "limited number of activations" aspect of DRM more than the "no longer supported" aspect, but I think it illistrates both well enough to scare the bejezzerz out of anyone making a substantal money investment in ANY software.

3. Internet connection and reliability; Though this is not N3V's responsability, they need to take a lot more consideration of this factor.
--I live in an area that has many options of ISP's, except on the half mile stretch of the road I live on. For some un-Godly reason, the Utility companies decided some 40 years ago to put all Utility wires on my stretch of road UNDERGROUND (everything around us is above-ground on power poles), and we often times lose internet and power with a heavy rain storm. Even when I do have internet, it is slow, and unreliable (for High Speed DSL). I've even gone so far as to contact the FCC, filed a complaint and gone through the process of investigation and Phone Company coming out to make some half-baked repairs...all to no final solution, short of digging up the utilities and installing above ground poles...which they refuse to do. My only two internet options are Dial-up through the phone company, or HS-DSL, through the phone company...both on the exact same wires. The cable companies will NOT install underground cables, because there are only 7 houses here, and not enough revenue to justify the capital investment, and "cellular-Internet" is not an option due to restrictions on both speed and bandwidth.
----If future Trainz products include DRM protocalls that will require a live internet connection, I will have no choice but to abandon all future versions.

I may add more later, as time permits.
 
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I think you are missing the point, why should you donate to something that does not meet with your expectations, N3V should really state there intentions before asking for money, there has been lots said about DRM over the last few months they should state there position, its a pity you have such a vested interest in the subject you lack creditability.

Cheers

Lots

what the hell are you talking about?

I think he is trying to say, that because you have a "vested interest" in the continuation of the Trainz franchise, that in his opinion, your input is less meaningful.

I disagree, if that is what he is saying, as in my opinion, the input from yourself and the reast of the JR team MIGHT shed more light on the actual financial implications of enacting DRM measures.

--Have you seen an increase or decrease in sales numbers since the introduction of SP1-HF1, HF2, HF3 for TS12 ?

Before you answer, if you will, I'd propose an increase in sales may be due to people purchasing your product INSTEAD of N3V DLC, because of the DLC DRM practices.
-Without input from those who have purchased, I guess we will never really know why they purchased, or if they chose one over the other.
 
My first post was only to say that nothing more can really be said about the DRM than what has already been outlined, but an obvious misinterpretation whether intentional or otherwise of the Kickstarter campaign was being conveyed here. I have no clue what Lots_Trains was even referring to.

As far as JR's content, I plan to support both methods. There are pros and cons for each. Some people like the fact that they do not have to manage their downloads personally and always keep a working backup of them. Some prefer the opposite.

JR items will be offered through the N3V online store as DLC (with appropriate DRM) as well as through the site. There are obvious drawbacks to each method, but my personal feeling is that it should be up to the consumer and their needs.

I will give an example: Add on-content purchased and delivered from JR will obviously not have any kind of activation DRM, but such cannot be used in multiplayer environments. The same item purchased through Simulator Central would require at most some periodic verification and be usable in multiplayer games as well.

There are a few other things, like perhaps automated updating of items through the game interface, where our site does not have this functionality (at present). I can only speak for my planned model, not for N3V. Sales have not necessarily indicated a preference for one way or the other.
 
Thanks for the input so far, all.

Here's a question for you. Would you rather have DRM or having to use the old method of installing a .ja file,entering serial numbers into the Trainz Options box and having to endure a database repair as a result?

I'll take the "old method" in a second, not that database repairs have anything whatsoever to do with authentication. If you have a problem with your car keys, you don't replace the engine, do you?

The database/DLC system and serial number system are unrelated and not exclusive of each other. That's just how N3V chose to implement things.

BTW, just for kicks and giggles, I just installed the updated Duchess and reinstalled the BR-14 DLC into my "monster" TS12 installation, the ~350Gb one. Each "database repair" took all of about 2 minutes. That's probably a lot less than the extra download time the new DLC system imposes for each in-game download.
 
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I thought you may say that. I prefer not having to enter serial numbers, and DRM in some cases is a necessary evil (bear in mind that serial numbers are a form of DRM as well). The database system is related to the serial/DLC system in the form of TADDaemon, which some would refer to as DRM as well, but you don't see many moaning about that.

Shane
 
I thought you may say that. I prefer not having to enter serial numbers, and DRM in some cases is a necessary evil (bear in mind that serial numbers are a form of DRM as well). The database system is related to the serial/DLC system in the form of TADDaemon, which some would refer to as DRM as well, but you don't see many moaning about that.

The database/serial system do not need to be integrated. That's just how N3V chose to do it.

Few outside of wikipedia consider serial numbers "DRM". Would it make you happy to state for the record that, for the purposes of this thread (not to mention about 99% of other discussions about DRM anywhere), we are talking about online or phone-based product activation, authorization, etc.? (which I detailed in the original post, BTW.)
 
The acronym DRM stands for "Digital Rights Management". By it's definition, your "Rights", "Managed" from an outside (your own computer) source, "Digitally".

A Serial Number is a series of alpha numeric characters which must match a set-range of the same within the software executable. No "outside" (of your computer) influence.


FWIW, I refuse to purchase an automobile that has any sort of "On-Star", or other "web connected" feature, as they can already lock and unlock your doors at will, and in some cases, start or disable your car on a whim, but I have no problem supplying my VIN to the DMV to get a registration plate.
--Much worse than DRM in Software, as you actually OWN the Automobile, as opposed to "purchasing a Right to use" software.


And since you mention TADDAEMON...I'll have to bring that up in the TANE thread, as it needs an overhaul too, but not the topic of discussion here.
 
Here's a question for you. Would you rather have DRM or having to use the old method of installing a .ja file,entering serial numbers into the Trainz Options box and having to endure a database repair as a result?

I will be honest with you, the former would be better for me, although it would be nice if N3V implemented an offline mode like Steam has so that Trainz can be used offline without losing access to DLC content. Anyway, Trainz is designed to be used online anyway with the Multiplayer feature and for picking up DLS updates. Why would the DRM make any difference (apart from preventing modification of DLC content, but that's due to Multiplayer requirements).

Shane

Not been here for a while, since when was it a requirement to use trainz online ?
 
Ok, But, let's say N3V takes the next logical step and installs some form of callback DRM on the game itself. Would you ditch Trainz if you knew that was to be included in the next patch or version?

It's a pretty likely scenario that N3V WILL apply some form of DRM on the game itself, not just the DLC, based on the following:

1. It's the trend of the industry. Trainz is fairly unusual, AFAIK, in that it's one of the few modern, non-indie products without some form of DRM ('callback'). The "other" sim has had it for years by way of Steam, to say nothing of other sims and games.

2. The current Kickstarter project amounts to a pre-payment, pre-release purchase of the game, at least depending on the amount. So, you've already bought the product, even if you don't want or can't use the product due to the DRM. That's why it would be helpful to have a commitment from N3V as to whether or not and what degree of DRM the new product (TANE/E2) will have.

3. Continued financial support likely will encourage more DRM; only a loss of financial and consumer support might discourage it. Ultimately, this is what it all comes down to.

1. As you say, but we can never be worse off than where we are now. If you don't like future N3V products, stick with what you have now.

2. DRM is a big issue on KickStarter and many take your stand. I'd say that N3V using KS to raise funds increases the chances of DRM free Trainz in the future.

3. This is where we part on the issue. It seem to me you are suggesting not using any future N3V DRM products because in the future, you may not be able to use N3V products.
 
Let's hope Tony chimes in here soon. It's more of a balance thing, if N3V can pull off significant progress in T2 and these improvements outweigh the drawbacks of DRM, then people will buy and support it. For now I'm still getting by on 49922 because SP1 doesn't bring anything new to the table to offset the headaches it causes.
 
Bear in mind that TANE is going to be a whole new ball game - with Steam as the means of distribution and DLC sales, who knows maybe even Workshop/Marketplace replacing the current DLS arrangements.

Surprised no one has commented yet on my earlier views regarding N3V's apparent double standards on copy protection of their core products but the veritable free for all when it comes to user content contributions.
 
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