Building a computer for TC (Noob alert!)

Why do you keep recommending stuff that have large amounts of bad reviews and low ratings and low power? Do you want my computer to run Windows 3.0 or something?? :(

It's based on personal experience. He builds a fair number of machines and has found that this combination works for him and gives him satisfied customers at a reasonable cost. I have a different bias in that I prefer reliability so have a tendency to go for a different set of cost / benefit.

Reviews can be useful but you have to be very careful with them. The publisher depends on getting advertising dollars and ideally free systems to review on the companies submitting product. Also to sell magazines, page views etc. they want to give the idea that something is new. If you are an established company that has had good reviews in the past then there is less temptation to submit your product or for the product to be reviewed. No one really wants to say this design created the year before last is really solid and still is good value for money.

Memory is a case in point with aggressive timings. Yes you can get 2% more performance out of them by spending twice as much but in the big picture the bottlenecks are more to do with switching textures in and out of the graphics card. Having 640 Mb of memory on the graphics card no matter what speed cuts down that bottleneck.

Trainz works by running through a series of instructions. It is much more complicated to divide up the instructions over multiple paths unless the system is built that way so currently Trainz like most games or Sims is only capable of using one core or CPU at a time. Work is being done at Microsoft to make using multiple cores easier but at the moment and for the next five years it isn't going to be main stream. The graphics cards on the other hand handle things differently. What are called pipes are in fact CPUs and nVidia is releasing software that enables you to do scientific computation on the graphics cards in parallel much faster that it will run on the CPU.

For the moment on a dual core the operating system can sit on one doing very little say 5% utilisation, Trainz sits on the other at 100% utilisation. On a quad core the operating system sits on one doing very little at say 5% utilisation, Trainz sits on another at 100% utilisation, and the other two sit there doing nothing except giving off heat which is why the dual is clocked faster than the quad, getting the heat off the cpu is the limiting factor for performance.

Cheerio John
 
As of right now, dual core is the best right now.

Yes there are still single core CPU's available and they still work, however times have changed. While there arent' many programs that can take advantage of the dual core, or even 64-bit CPU's I've noticed that game do indeed run better on 64-bit CPU's (perhaps that 32-bit overhead does something), and dual core's give a better overall performance (again maybe that second core gives a bit of overhead).

Then there is quad core. WOHOOOO! I GOT QUAD CORE!! Yeah sure you just spent $1,000+ for what basically amounts to a pair of Intel Core 2 Duo's mounted on one CPU. Not only do they cost a lot of money ($1,000+), they don't give any sort of performance boost (they may but not for the extra $700+ you spend for the extra two cores).

So in the end: It's all what you can afford. However, for performance for the price, currently, dual-core is the best option.
 
That's the CPU I chose. Ok, what next? :)

Remind me what we have so far and how much budget you have left or are we continuing without regard to cost?

I think we need memory and hard disk at the moment. for 32 bit operating system we need 2.5 gigs of memory we can go more but the other 1.5 gigs will just add in heat to the system and on this system that's the last thing we want to do. On hard drives the three major approaches are 5 year warrenty, coolest running, or RAID 5 gets better performance but needs three drives, or SATA 3.0 which has about 10-15% more throughput than an ATA drive because of the way it is connected to the cpu but is currently being hyped.

Cheerio John
 
Remind me what we have so far and how much budget you have left or are we continuing without regard to cost?

I think we need memory and hard disk at the moment. for 32 bit operating system we need 2.5 gigs of memory we can go more but the other 1.5 gigs will just add in heat to the system and on this system that's the last thing we want to do. On hard drives the three major approaches are 5 year warrenty, coolest running, or RAID 5 gets better performance but needs three drives, or SATA 3.0 which has about 10-15% more throughput than an ATA drive because of the way it is connected to the cpu but is currently being hyped.

Cheerio John

Memory: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820220227

And could you help with the HDD? I'm confused. :eek:
 
A Raid array is not useless ... in a Business Server, but in a games machine (or standalone) you are not only wasting $$$, but also speed and resource in the system.

Chris
 
A Raid array is not useless ... in a Business Server, but in a games machine (or standalone) you are not only wasting $$$, but also speed and resource in the system.

Chris

Games or standalone machines are normally bottlenecked by the hard drive. The new Intel chip set allows RAID 5 and comes standard on all new intel chip set note not cpu machines.

For memory we worry about the last nanosecond we don't worry so much about hard drives that work in milliseconds. There are 10,000 nanoseconds in a millisecond.

Hard drives have a number of bottlenecks, one is the time it takes to get the head over the correct track. Another is how fast can we get the data off the drive. A third is how fast can we write to the drive. XP by default actually caches disk writes to the drives to speed up the computer.

The big problem for most computers is reading data. To process a 20k word processing document we read in 80 mb+ of program files. So anything we can do to speed up reads is worth doing. Trainz is much the same we read far more data than we write to the drive.

Raid 0 or striping is used by Dell as a default to improve PC performance. By using two heads to read at the same time we get the data in twice as fast and also we will not need to read as many tracks under each head so we get less track to track movement reducing these roughly 8 millisecond delays. Unfortunately this means that if one disk drive dies then you need to rebuild the machine from the operating system up. Bit like a chain the system fails when one link breaks. So RAID 0 gives us better speed at the cost of reliability. Dell and other companies basically give a year's warrenty and statistically both drives will hold up that long. Year two and three is where you might hit a problem.

RAID 1 or mirroring is useful for certain types of database access. It needs two 250 gig drives to give 250 gigs of space but if one drive dies you just copy the data from the other drive onto the replacement drive. There is a performance hit on these systems as the disk access is the same but you have a small performance penalty for using RAID.

RAID 5 is much more interesting, normally used on servers but these days it is cheap enough for PCs. With RAID 5 on a three drive system when we read we spread the load over the three drives. So reads come in about one third of the time. Writes on the other hand are slower since we need to write both the data and to calculate and write out a check digit on a different drive. However if a drive fails then the system can continue to run all the data is either available or can be calculated from the check digits. Replace the failed drive and your system will reload the new drive for you. The cost is one extra hard drive. With three 250 gig drives you get 500 gigs. With four 250 gig drives you get 750 gigs. There is a cost overhead but it's fairly low considering the performance gains on the read side which are substantial.

Cheerio John
 
Games or standalone machines are normally bottlenecked by the hard drive. The new Intel chip set allows RAID 5 and comes standard on all new intel chip set note not cpu machines.

For memory we worry about the last nanosecond we don't worry so much about hard drives that work in milliseconds. There are 10,000 nanoseconds in a millisecond.

Hard drives have a number of bottlenecks, one is the time it takes to get the head over the correct track. Another is how fast can we get the data off the drive. A third is how fast can we write to the drive. XP by default actually caches disk writes to the drives to speed up the computer.

The big problem for most computers is reading data. To process a 20k word processing document we read in 80 mb+ of program files. So anything we can do to speed up reads is worth doing. Trainz is much the same we read far more data than we write to the drive.

Raid 0 or striping is used by Dell as a default to improve PC performance. By using two heads to read at the same time we get the data in twice as fast and also we will not need to read as many tracks under each head so we get less track to track movement reducing these roughly 8 millisecond delays. Unfortunately this means that if one disk drive dies then you need to rebuild the machine from the operating system up. Bit like a chain the system fails when one link breaks. So RAID 0 gives us better speed at the cost of reliability. Dell and other companies basically give a year's warrenty and statistically both drives will hold up that long. Year two and three is where you might hit a problem.

RAID 1 or mirroring is useful for certain types of database access. It needs two 250 gig drives to give 250 gigs of space but if one drive dies you just copy the data from the other drive onto the replacement drive. There is a performance hit on these systems as the disk access is the same but you have a small performance penalty for using RAID.

RAID 5 is much more interesting, normally used on servers but these days it is cheap enough for PCs. With RAID 5 on a three drive system when we read we spread the load over the three drives. So reads come in about one third of the time. Writes on the other hand are slower since we need to write both the data and to calculate and write out a check digit on a different drive. However if a drive fails then the system can continue to run all the data is either available or can be calculated from the check digits. Replace the failed drive and your system will reload the new drive for you. The cost is one extra hard drive. With three 250 gig drives you get 500 gigs. With four 250 gig drives you get 750 gigs. There is a cost overhead but it's fairly low considering the performance gains on the read side which are substantial.

Cheerio John

What would be a good HDD you'd reccomend? Btw, I need at least 750 GB minimum.
 

  • Manufacturer Limited Warranty period (parts): 3 years
  • Manufacturer Limited Warranty period (labor): 3 years
but three of these in Raid 5 gives you the same 1T and 5 year warranty.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822148136

The cost is lower and because you spread the reads over three spindles read access is faster. Power consumption is a little higher though.

Cheerio John
 
  • Manufacturer Limited Warranty period (parts): 3 years
  • Manufacturer Limited Warranty period (labor): 3 years
but three of these in Raid 5 gives you the same 1T and 5 year warranty.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822148136

The cost is lower and because you spread the reads over three spindles read access is faster. Power consumption is a little higher though.

Cheerio John

I took your suggestion (3 of the seagate), cause it was better than the Hitachi. ;)

What next?
 
Alright, I know what UPS I want, I have a keyboard/mouse, and a soundcard.

What else do I need now? Remember, the power supply comes last.
 
This is not good, this is not good

I need drivers for the Logitech X-540 I have, bad. The package didn't come with any and all my computer is doing is beeping. :confused:
 
You want a decent CPU (at least 2.5Ghz or 1.00Ghz each processor on a multi-core),
Decent Graphics card (Nvidia or ATI)
Decent motherboard (mainboard, maybe intel, I do not have a clue)
DVD ROM drive or writer!!! (you do not need a blueray one, you do not want a CD ROM/Writer drive),
And many other things! (unless they come with the case)

And do not let your motherboard control which processor you buy! It should be the other way around!
 
You want a decent CPU (at least 2.5Ghz or 1.00Ghz each processor on a multi-core),
Decent Graphics card (Nvidia or ATI)
Decent motherboard (mainboard, maybe intel, I do not have a clue)
DVD ROM drive or writer!!! (you do not need a blueray one, you do not want a CD ROM/Writer drive),
And many other things! (unless they come with the case)

And do not let your motherboard control which processor you buy! It should be the other way around!

That is no longer the issue, the speakers are the issue! :'(
 
Maybe get some decent Logitech ones BUT NOT THE SURROUND SOUND ONES! They are a waste of money unless they are with an established computer. That is a good brand and they don't need B drivers.
 
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Hey Pals,

First thing i would like to mention is that Windows Vista Ultimate (32/64bit) even OEM version has downgrade right to Windows XP (32/64bit accordingly). You can order install CD for a funny price at Microsoft or any distributor. Serial number works the same of Vista Ultimate.

And banned pal: check your sound card drivers - i hope you didn't use that from CD provided...and if you've got Creativa card - NEVER EVER put Logitech speakers - it's terrible combination... :( sorry to say that...
 
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