What would have happened if N3V did not use DRM at all ?

C

cascaderailroad

New member
What exactly would have happened if N3V did not use DRM at all ? <-- That is the question

Would the pirates and hackers have gotten the game for nothing ? (As they already have done so by easily hacking, torrenting, and bypassing the DRM of N3V servers).

Would game sales have peaked at only a mere 1000 customers ... and all the rest would be thousands of pirates and hackers (something that has already happened, despite the use of DRM).

If N3V gave us the actual DLC files so that we could save them to our downloads, what would have happened ? I still don't see why N3V installs the DLC assets for us, and N3V doesn't trust it's paying DLC users to handle these DLC files ? Why are these DLC assets controlled by DRM, and are only handed out by N3V to its paying DLC users, on a rotating 30 day period, and if not re-authenticated each and every 30 days, they are disabled for the paying DLC customers. I just don't get it ... why the use of DRM on it's paying customers ... WHY ?

Phil_C effectively locked all his assets, and you can't clone them, get inside them, nor trade them ... And he didn't use DRM

What exactly would have happened if N3V had not used DRM ? I see very little that would have been affected, and changed, if DRM was not used by N3V in the past ... and even less if N3V stopped using DRM today, and forever forward.
 
To quote a movie:
"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

DRM:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_rights_management

What Phil_c did, WAS DRM. The difference here though, is that Phil_c had a much smaller customer base, a slightly different product (Similar, but simpler), and as a result, did not ever have to fool with Validation. DRM is ANY of a large variety of measures taken in an effort to eliminate or control distribution of Copyrighted Digital Material......

I *think*, if I have read this, (And many many previous), complaints correctly, what you're really griping about is the Online Validation Component of N3V's DRM?

After that, what would happen without it? There would be alot more pirating of their software. Its true, there is no such thing as net security. You're never going to keep every single heavily vested, talented, interested party from cracking your codes or software... But by making it an as annoying process as possible, you ensure they have to be REALLY dedicated to their pursuit, and chances are, if you throw enough roadblocks in their way, you can find a way to track them and prosecute them later.....

Also, Torrenting is something you do *after* you've pirated/cracked their software. Thats the distribution side of it.....

-Falcus
 
Then why can't N3V use the same simple system that Phil_C used, as it was very effective way of protecting goods, and stopped pirating and re-distribution on it's tracks ?

Now that N3V uses DRM, it places a higher value on cracking Trainz ... Where as without DRM hackers would not even be compelled to crack the game code, as they would have said: "It's just a stupid Trainz game", and would have walked away. But with this DRM blockade, hackers are given a true challenge, and find the thrill of breaking into the top secret N3V bunker ... Just for the shear fun of breaking in to something that they can not have ... design a foolproof, burglar proof bank, someone will eventually try to break in and steal the valuable goods inside ... DRM has done nothing but inflate the value of the game, and adds a challenge to hackers as an achievement for breaking in.
 
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cascaderailroad said:
What exactly would have happened if N3V did not use DRM at all ? <-- That is the question

....
Click to expand...
The real question is why do you keep flogging this horse. Why not do something useful like find a way to achieve the same result without the annoying aspects that you mentioned. And, no, I don't know that answer but would be interested to know it.
 
Then why can't N3V use the same simple system that Phil_C used, as it was very effective way of protecting goods, and stopped pirating and re-distribution on it's tracks ?
 
First off, what Phil_c had was a single life cycle product, and I'm sure that anyone dedicated enough could have cracked it. There are plenty of people in this world that look at Encryption as a challenge in life, and will attempt to hack things just to see if they can best it wherever they find it..... Phil_c's greatest protection was that, in the world of Hacking, he was a small fish. The only people that knew his name, or of his products, were Trainz fans that could be bothered to keep up with Payware. N3V is a company, and a bigger fish with much more to lose and alot more visibility to the world at large.

N3V's product is much larger and reaches alot further. It involves multiple product releases accross years and years, each of which are expected to stand-alone, but be able to make use of similar, and in some cases, identical products, are much larger, and most important of all, have to be executable by at least several different versions of Windows and Mac OS.... Further, encryption on that level gets very very expensive, and by the time you encrypt it that heavily, you're making yourself a bigger target, and you then have to deal with that encryption everytime you make a slight change, and deal with it anytime you do things via the net such as updates-asset up/download-or Multiplayer......

If the answer to anti-piracy was easy, there would be no piracy ever....

-Falcus
 
If you read the fine print in the ToS/EULA things at installation, you actually don't own your copy of trains. You merely purchased a license to operate it; it's N3V's game, they just let you play it because you gave them money.

DRM is the direction the entire gaming industry is heading, not just N3V; though I will admit I was surprised to see DRM tied to the Trainz franchise.

EA/Maxis require it for their SimCity series; as well as many of their other titles. Most anything by Microsoft has a DRM requirement in the background (though they don't advertise it or mention it upfront). Nearly everything on Steam has DRM built in.

And it's just not PC Games, it's not uncommon for games on the Xbox and Playstation consoles to have DRM requirements, even if you bought and own the game disc. Again, anymore you don't purchase the game itself, but rather the right to play it.

And yes, the pirating of the games has gotten that bad; DRM is a simple lightweight feature that publishers and distributors can use to protect themselves.

As a user of several programs with DRM requirement, from multiple studios including E.A., Blizzard Entertainment, Stardock/Ironclad and Microsoft, I can tell you that DRM will not affect your gameplay in any way.
 
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Falcus said:
First off, what Phil_c had was a single life cycle product, and I'm sure that anyone dedicated enough could have cracked it. There are plenty of people in this world that look at Encryption as a challenge in life, and will attempt to hack things just to see if they can best it wherever they find it..... Phil_c's greatest protection was that, in the world of Hacking, he was a small fish. The only people that knew his name, or of his products, were Trainz fans that could be bothered to keep up with Payware. N3V is a company, and a bigger fish with much more to lose and alot more visibility to the world at large.

Exactly: snip~Further, encryption on that level gets very very expensive, and by the time you encrypt it that heavily, you're making yourself a bigger target -Falcus
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(which N3V has done, making it self a bigger higher profile target, a challenge to hack through N3V's DRM) ... Without DRM hackers would have left the product alone, and would have gone after bigger fish). Doubtful if anyone would have cracked Phil_C's method of locking the files, and N3V could do this too.
 
cascaderailroad said:
(which N3V has done, making it self a bigger higher profile target, a challenge to hack through N3V's DRM) ... Without DRM hackers would have left the product alone, and would have gone after bigger fish). Doubtful if anyone would have cracked Phil_C's method of locking the files, and N3V could do this too.
Click to expand...

Cascade, until you want to have a legitimate discussion about Hacking, and I don't have to help you with your own arguments by defining the words for you? I refuse to believe you are an authority on what is and is not possible to hack..... Though I'll happily take photo proof in the form of Photo ID next to a 2-4+ Year Certificate of Education in the Computer field from an accredited Educational Institution......

-Falcus
 
To me it's just bad business, at the paying customers expense, and pain ... all the while the hackers still easily get in, anyway, by cracking the N3V DRM
 
cascaderailroad said:
To me it's just bad business, at the paying customers expense, and pain ... all the while the hackers still easily get in, anyway, by cracking the N3V DRM
Click to expand...

You say that, but with no numbers or timeline to back it up as anything more then just your speculations or feelings..... I think I'll let N3V, or perhaps the NSA if they cared to (I doubt it, they have bigger fish to fry), speak for who has what copies of which version of Trainz, as they're the only ones with direct access to both those numbers, and the means to collect them.....

I'm not without sympathy for the "DRM is a Freakin annoying, inconvenient Pain in the derriere". 10 years ago, I swore to myself I would never buy anything with it on principle. But its undeniable that Piracy is an issue, and that DRM, in all its forms, does in fact fight it. To this day, I won't support bigger-companies DRM laden products because I can go see just how much money they're making and feel like their DRM is just "Profit Maximization". But for a small company that litterally had to do a Kickstarter Campaign just to stay competitive (Which they have succeeded at IMHO), if they want to try playing with DRM, I'll put up with it, as long as they manage it to a certain set of standards, and *So far*, they seem to be doing that.

As far as bad business? Bad business only matters if there is competition on the score you take umbridge about. Find me a Simulator WITHOUT DRM that can offer what Trainz does, and we'll talk. The only ones I know of that are available are Open Rails and BEV(? Always forget what this one was exactly called), and neither of them are anywhere near where Trainz is right now, nor probably will be for a long time to come. If its the only business in town, you take what you can get, or you live without, and N3V is neither the first, nor I'm sure the last, Software Company, Train Simulator Company, or Electronic Business Model, to move into using DRM.....

-Falcus
 
Greg sums it up nicely.

We actually do not own any of the software we fork money out for on our personal computers (the generic term referring to all computers running 'Nix, MAC OSx, and any flavor of Windows). If you spent the time reading a EULA you would see this. This means the software publisher has the right to do whatever they want with their property, including terminating the use of it at any time by any method in their means.

Microsoft has done this by terminating serial numbers on pirated users. Their activation server checks carefully for specific files and version types and if, for instance, a home user installed the Enterprise Edition of Windows 8.1, they could end up with an unusable machine since EEWin 8.1 is authenticated off of a corporate license which is tracked by the Microsoft, and if the key is received outside of the corporate license, that's it. The machine will not boot outside of the trial period. This was a problem with people obtaining Windows from the TechNet. The pirates would take the very expensive TechNet offerings, which were full versions of every bit of software Microsoft sold and would hand it out multiple copies to their friends. Microsoft has since terminated that subscription, and when it was in its last form only 5 license keys would be available per subscriber for each of the applications available to them at their subscription level.

Outside of that, the current form of DRM that you are so worried about is pretty mild. A login to a server once a month to check that you are the owner of the software isn't as painful as it could be or used to be,

Do you remember the paper disk things along with a manual?
Or how about dongles and authorization servers?

It could be worse than this... Adobe has recently gone 100% subscription. Do you want to pay $30 per month to use the program?

Some things to think about, and why keep bringing up the subject?

John
 
cascadrailroad, it's getting a bit old with these threads of What if DRM about Trainz. If you REALLY need someone to ask, find NeontheGriffon. I'm sure he'll demonstrate it to you. :hehe:
 
Piracy? Yes, DRM is about preventing piracy. I also have a working starship to sell you.

While preventing casual piracy might be a secondary effect (yeah, right! Q.E.D. torrents and USENET), the primary purpose is increase vendor lock-in and to afford software developers and publishers the opportunity to move to a subscription model. That's exactly what I (and tons of other people) were saying 15 years ago when Microsoft was pitching Palladium and the rest of the industry was pushing TCPA. Oh, what a surprise - that's exactly what's happening, albeit it's happening on the PC a bit later than many of us predicted. Adobe has already gone down that route, Microsoft is starting down it, and Apple is the king of it. SaaS has been all the rage in the enterprise space for awhile now, and it's not a surprise that developers and publishers are trying to wring far more money out of consumers than a one-time sale would produce. The last packaged edition of Photoshop, for instance, at $799 is a bargain, seeing as a year-and-a-half of subscription fees would cost the consumer more than the one-time sale.

The thing is, most of this is unnecessary. Trainz is an ideal example of a product that didn't NEED to go down the DRM road, although this could probably apply to many others as well. Trainz, by itself, is of pretty limited value. TS12 and T:ANE each only have a few routes which, not to offend anyone, get old pretty fast. If you want to download new routes or develop your own, you pretty much need the DLS and, to a lesser extent, the forums as well. Had N3V enforced a policy by which people with unassigned or unregistered serials were denied DLS access and support, there probably wouldn't be much piracy (apart from never-would-be-customers, perhaps, who would be stuck with a base product). Possibly, even, using pirated versions might generate more interest in Trainz because people could actually try it.
 
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