GWR use of Brake Vans

I would like to hear from anyone who knows whether GWR (in the steam days) ever ran goods trains with a Brake Van (i.e. a "Toad") at both ends of a goods train (e.g. a coal train) to allow for quick turn around.

I have realised (by trying to schedule delivery and shunting operations) that providing enough coal for a coal-fired powerstation is next to impossible where the powerstation is at the end of a single track line unless long coal trains arrive regularly and can be turned around quickly and without the fuss of shunting the Toad from one end of the train to the other.

I agree that Toads could be left and a replacement one added somewhat quicker (then the abandoned one repositioned by a shunter for use by the next train). However, even that is likely to delay things and occupy tracks that the next incoming coal train will need.

Also, unlike Brake Vans on LMS, LNER, SR and others (as well as later BR), GWR Toads do not have verandas at both ends of the Brake Van, so changing the Toad from one end of the train to the other, would change the position of the veranda relative to the train. Did GWR goods trains not normally run with the veranda at the rear of the train? Were there exceptions?

Peter.

Hi Peter
As someone who can remember the British rail Western region steam days I believe they only ran the break van at the rear end of the goods consist. I also believe that I saw them running with the veranda to the front and rear which was properly accounted for by hitching it up by whichever way it was facing.

As you probably know British rail Western region was born out of GWR on nationalization in 1948. Therefore I would feel that the GWR practices where undoubtedly just carried on by the same staff when they were taken over.

I lived quite near to a railway in my early years (born 1943) and despite spending many hours watching the goods Trains being shunted and the mainline approach to Temple Mead's (Bristol) I can never remember seeing any freight train running with brake vans at both ends.

Hope this helps

Bill

Just how large is this power station? In GWR days most power station outputs were measured in 100s rather than thousands of MW so there were many more of them. They were also situated closer to the main consumers so were in, or close to towns. The lower cooling water requirements of these smaller stations meant that they were not forced to be located alongside major rivers.

Consequently the railways did not have to cope with the voracious appetites of today's generators. Plenty of time to deal with the toads.

Thanks Bill and Andrew.

I remember SR (Southern Region not Southern Railway) steam goods trains coming past where I used to live in Ashtead (near Epsom), Surrey when I was 5, 6 and 7 and I have to admit I never saw one with Brake Vans at both ends either. Good to know about the two way operation of the toads, though. Didn't GWR operate wagon turntables? What did they need to turn then?

The powerstation concerned has been placed on a rather imprecise TRS2004 depiction of the docks at Devonport near Plymouth (at the south end on the landward side of the ferry terminal. Though near (sea-)water, I recognise that there was, as far as I can tell, no powerstation there in actual fact. Equally, the layout has many more modern features, like high-rise buildings and telecoms towers, than my steam era operation would fit in with. I would bet that the powerstation chosen is not only a later, higher output one, but maybe even an American one. It's coal consumption is enormous. It does "operate" on the layout, but not for more than a few minutes (before it runs out of coal again). I don't believe it stated a power output, but I can look up the coal consumption in Tons/minute tonight (now 12:30 in Ireland). But Andrew, what sort of coal consumption rate would a 200 or 500 MW powerstation have?

To be honest I was surprised finding a powerstation down in the docks and so only accessible through a steep, windy, single track tunnel. I suppose when I've got my TS2010 operating again (I think PC overheating problems, that I'm resolving, are stopping it installing or working correctly), I'll have to start all over again with the (elevation) topography and overall topology of the area, do more research on the line and make a reasonably accurate depiction of this remarkable stretch of line as it would have been in the 1930's. Playing around with peteredw44's "Devon Cornwall Updated" and stagecoach's Devon Lines 2004 (Devon Steam 2004) has taught me a lot about the area and a lot about some of the pitfalls to avoid in making new routes (and sessions), though.

I may also consider working on a depiction of the West Clare Railway as well. However, right now I'm (supposed to be) busy doing an Archaeology PhD.

But, before I go, Bill, born three years before me, eh? Truly a "Trainz Veteran" and Andrew, you may be down in Oz now but you're from the UK originally, the north of England, right?

All the best,

Peter.

Hi Peter and Everybody.
With regard to Plymouth in the late steam era it could be a good point to remember that the city was heavily bombed during World War II. Virtually all the center of Plymouth of was destroyed along with the dockyard and Devonport area in proximity to the dockyard.

The dockyard was quickly repaired due to the needs of the Royal Navy but Devonport and the city center where not rebuilt until the early to middle 1960s.

in my early career as a Hgv driver I can remember delivering to the newly opened shopping center in approximately 1965. With its four pedestrian precincts it was very much an innovation and a blueprint for many other shopping centers to follow.

Bearing in mind all the above, it may well account for the fact that any Plymouth based Trainz route would have to be either be pre second world war or after the Beeching cuts were made (example 1970) anything created between the second world war and 1968 would have to contain a lot of damaged buildings which I don't think the download station contains.

mind you, it could be a great Route to create if you could find the assets needed to make a realistic bombed out city or create content yourself.

Now there's a thought, would not mind having a go at myself when I fully retire

Bill
(you got me thinking now),
from the thinking side of Somerset.

The Fairford Branch of the GWR was situated in such a way that while both very hilly, and long (close to 50 miles) it had a number of sidings and a yard at both ends. However, the yard was rather small on one end, and seven track on the other, so when the railroad would work it, they'd often put a brake van at either end of the train. Once the goods trains reached Fairford, it was a simple matter of turning it around and heading back. Keep in mind this was a line that was (until the BR days at least) almost exclusively run by pannier tanks.

Remember that a small "pot bellied" coal stove was the only form of heating in Brake Vans. In the depths of winter the guard would be reluctant to move to another van ! When two vans (one either end) were used, which there were when known reversals were involved, then it was common for the fires in both to be lit.

Hi Everybody.
I'm glad Peter started this thread as I love reading anything from which you learn and for me it is the great side of the Internet.

As I said in my earlier posting I never did see freight consists running with brake vans at both ends. However, it is good to hear that it really did happen if only in a limited context in selected yards. I also did not know that GWR extended as far as Fairford in Gloucestershire. I have always thought that the limit of that great company only went as far as Gloucester itself in that direction.

Bristol Temple Mead's was a huge shunting complex located alongside Victoria Park in the Bedminster area of Bristol. As kids we would spend hours watching the shunting operations going on with the parcel vans etc being shunted one or two at a time into the individual sidings from the freight trains as they arrived.

It always fascinated me and my mates to watch the brake man running alongside the carriage being shunted from the train as he had to apply to break with a long lever as it ran into the selected siding. It appeared to be very hard work and something you would have to be very fit to carry out. He must have walked and ran many miles over the course of a working shift.

As a side issue Victoria Park used to have a very high slider as part of the kids equipment. We used to stand on top of the slider to get a better view of the steam engines and shunting going on. We could also see from the mainline with the trains arriving and departing Temple Mead station. We used to get into arguments with the girls who were not interested in the railway (as girls where in those days) and who wanted to use the slider for its intended purpose.

Of course as we got older we became more interested in going down the slider with the girls. It was then that I lost my interest in railways at least for a time while I found out what girls where all about.

into puberty by way of British rail

Bill

The Fairford Branch started as something more but never quite got off the ground. Originally the intent was for the railroad to continue on past Fairford, but they never actually built that portion. In fact, the line started life as a broad gauge line terminating in Witney before it was standardized and brought under the mantle of the GWR.

One of the curious things, beyond the double brake van practice, is the fact that unlike most of the GWR, the panniers were actually turned on a turntable, and rarely ran bunker first on the line.

hi Magicmaker and everybody.

magickmaker said:

One of the curious things, beyond the double brake van practice, is the fact that unlike most of the GWR, the panniers were actually turned on a turntable, and rarely ran bunker first on the line.

Click to expand...

the only reason I can think that they would wish to turn the panniers was because of the length of the branch line which as you advised was over 50 miles long. It would have been undoubtedly very uncomfortable for the driver to travel that far with his back to the bulkhead while at the same time holding the steam valve open.

Cannot think why else you would wish to turn them as they where designed to be driven bunker first when necessary.

Bill

peterwise said:

......but Andrew, what sort of coal consumption rate would a 200 or 500 MW powerstation have?

Click to expand...

The energy density of a typical steam coal is 6.67kWh per kg. Being generous and applying 30% efficiency a power station of 100MW capacity would require a coal supply of 50 tonnes per hour. I have checked the outputs of some old UK power stations that I can remember the names of. Agecroft A built in 1925 was 100MW. Bold A and B power stations had a combined output of 300MW and even in 1958 this was the largest facility in the North West of England. So as I posted earlier plenty of time to turn a toad!

.......Andrew, you may be down in Oz now but you're from the UK originally, the north of England, right?

Click to expand...

Yes, near Manchester.

> Fairford Branch of the GWR ... a brake van at either end of the train

Ah yes! There's always an exception.

> the panniers were actually turned on a turntable

The pannier tanks were turned but the trains had two brake vans - I imagine that pragmatic approaches to problems specific to

each particular branch line are likely to have survived into the grouping (big four railway) group days, but I also imagine

that when it (almost) all became BR that they had to tow the B

I presume on the "both ends" you're referring to are the Fairford and Yarnton end (where passengers can then go on to either

Oxford or Worcester).

This would make it the Oxford, Witney and Fairford Railway (AKA East Gloucestershire Railway), which according to

* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Gloucestershire_Railway#The_East_Gloucestershire_Railway

was a single track railway line, 22 miles (35 km) long, in Oxfordshire and Gloucestershire.

I'm sure you've all noticed that Wikipedia is really good on information on UK railways (both working and disused).

The Wikipedia stub refers to

http://www.martin.loader.btinternet.co.uk/History.htm

which has some lovel photos of the line.

Thanks for that 'magickmaker'. I just assumed you were from England somewhere until you used the word "railroad" [1] and then

noticed your actually in the USA, but when you talk about GWR practice, you sound like you used to live there.


[1] "Two nations divided by a common language" - Winston Churchill.

magickmaker said:

The Fairford Branch of the GWR was situated in such a way that while both very hilly, and long

(close to 50 miles) it had a number of sidings and a yard at both ends. However, the yard was rather small on one end, and

seven track on the other, so when the railroad would work it, they'd often put a brake van at either end of the train. Once

the goods trains reached Fairford, it was a simple matter of turning it around and heading back. Keep in mind this was a line

that was (until the BR days at least) almost exclusively run by pannier tanks.

...

The Fairford Branch started as something more but never quite got off the ground. Originally the intent was for the railroad

to continue on past Fairford, but they never actually built that portion. In fact, the line started life as a broad gauge

line terminating in Witney before it was standardized and brought under the mantle of the GWR.

One of the curious things, beyond the double brake van practice, is the fact that unlike most of the GWR, the panniers were

actually turned on a turntable, and rarely ran bunker first on the line.

Click to expand...

# Sorry about all the extra lines in my last posting guys - Firefox was crashing so I quickly copied and pasted it into notepad and posted it back. Obviously, the messaging system was taking both the CR and the LF in the CRLFs as a new line. (PW)

Bill,

I like my model railways rather pretty and idyllic (not realistic I know with all that coal around), so I probably wouldn't be into bombed out buildings. Still, if we made a route for TS2010, we could have different layers for different periods, sensibilities and other variables. Couldn't we? I still remember my father taking me up to a high building in London in th 1950's and seeing all the bombed out streets - not nice! It did take Britain quite a time to recover from WWII.

All the best,

Peter.

--

wholbr said:

Hi Peter and Everybody.
With regard to Plymouth in the late steam era it could be a good point to remember that the city was heavily bombed during World War II. Virtually all the center of Plymouth of was destroyed along with the dockyard and Devonport area in proximity to the dockyard.

The dockyard was quickly repaired due to the needs of the Royal Navy but Devonport and the city center where not rebuilt until the early to middle 1960s.

in my early career as a Hgv driver I can remember delivering to the newly opened shopping center in approximately 1965. With its four pedestrian precincts it was very much an innovation and a blueprint for many other shopping centers to follow.

Bearing in mind all the above, it may well account for the fact that any Plymouth based Trainz route would have to be either be pre second world war or after the Beeching cuts were made (example 1970) anything created between the second world war and 1968 would have to contain a lot of damaged buildings which I don't think the download station contains.

mind you, it could be a great Route to create if you could find the assets needed to make a realistic bombed out city or create content yourself.

Now there's a thought, would not mind having a go at myself when I fully retire

Bill
(you got me thinking now),
from the thinking side of Somerset.

Click to expand...

Andrew,

I was born on the outskirts of Manchester - Woodford, Cheshire, but registered at Altringham, if memory (of reading my birth cert.) serves. We moved done south shortly afterwards.

So, powerstations. Well I presume that commodities in Trainz are in kg., right? The GWR coal trucks show maximum loads of 12,100 and 10,100+, so say 12 and 10 tonnes (or approximately 12 or 10 imperial tons) - sounds about right, doesn't it? The 3 stack powerstation is set to consume 32,580 per MINUTE (and starts with 271,500) again, presumably kg. so my my 9 coal truck train, ready there to unload just keeps the powerstation going for 2 more minutes after fully unloading - clearly not sustainable.

I should probably set the powerstation's consumption per minute to about 850 (not 32,580!), right? (50,000/hr = 833.33/min.).

All the best,

Peter.

--

AndrewH said:

The energy density of a typical steam coal is 6.67kWh per kg. Being generous and applying 30% efficiency a power station of 100MW capacity would require a coal supply of 50 tonnes per hour. I have checked the outputs of some old UK power stations that I can remember the names of. Agecroft A built in 1925 was 100MW. Bold A and B power stations had a combined output of 300MW and even in 1958 this was the largest facility in the North West of England. So as I posted earlier plenty of time to turn a toad!


Yes, near Manchester.

Click to expand...

Peter, don't use wikipedia. Wikipedia can't be trusted for a handful of reasons. Currently, I get my information from the gentleman that's hosted the actual historical site. Including the history of the Witney & East Gloucester Railway that was first incorporated in 1860, and finished in 1861. In 1873 they added the extension to Fairford with the ONLY turntable on the line. The railroad lasted as the W&EG well until 1890 when GWR purchased it outright. It's curious when you look at how the line terminated at Witney originally.

Originally, the route had a small goods yard (really nothing more than a loop and a siding to allow teams to acces flat wagons) and "siding" of sorts accessed by a wagon turntable. This siding was later replaced, though the remnants of it existed well into the BR days. However, as I said, it terminated strangely, even for the GWR. The train would arrive and maybe about thirty yards away from the end of the platform, there was the engine house. However there wasn't a turntable ever built there. There was a loop to allow the locomotive to run around the carriages, but by all historical accounts, no turntable.

Now, you've made something of an assumption with what I stated. Part of the reason I loved the Fairford Branch, and have been working off and on since getting Trainz to build it, is that right up until the 1960's, they still ran pannier PASSENGER traffic. When I was referring to "bunker" first, I meant with the passenger coaching stock. Also, all told, counting the sidings to reach the Ballaso (it was a ballast pit) the realignment in Witney, along with the curious operations from Oxford to Yarnton, at its height around 1940 (when I model) the line was close to fifty miles in total length. This includes the now abandoned and removed line that came from Oxford through Yarnton.

Interesting fact: When built, there wasn't a single turntable on the line, yet historical photos show tender locomotives operating almost exclusively on it. It wasn't until reaching Fairford that this changed, however the turntable was barely large enough to support a pannier tank. It wasn't until WW2, with the construction of a seven track railyard at Yarnton Junction that a larger turntable was constructed. Even so, during the war years, it wasn't uncommon to see Super D locomotives doing their own shunting at this point.

So, finally, WHY did they operate with dual brake vans on freights? It's a curious answer, but it traces back to the waning days of the line. To be honest, starting with the last fifteen years or so (the line was finally taken up in 1970) the trains operated usually only as far as Witney. However over the years the old siding orientations had changed considerably, making it difficult (not impossible, just hard to do so) for the crews to keep the brake van on the end of the train. It was just a matter of making the turn around faster and easier, while at the same time freeing up space needed for shunting. Meaning that they didn't have to figure out where to stick the van while getting their freight cars moved around. Instead, they already had one handy, and could take away without having to do long backing maneuvers or running around the cars.

Couple of facts:

Fairford opened to passengers on 15 Jan 1873 and closed to both passenger and goods on 18 June 1962.

Other dates are uncertain.

Magickmaker,

I really appreciate your insight into this remarkable line and would love to see a (TS2010) route/session based on your research, so, don't get me wrong but I find Wikipedia really helpful.

It's usually my first port of call to look up facts. This is not to say that everything is correct or that it couldn't be better - nothing in this life is perfect. I would always be a little skeptical about facts on the Internet generally and would expect to find corroberating sources. Actually, this is where I feel Wikipedia is good. It encourages citations (and references) and a more rigorous approach to information and knowledge, whereas the Internet generally consists mainly of opinion mixed with a very large share of commericialism. If I want to find something on the Internet, I have to wade through company after company trying to sell me something, often only using my keywords to hook me into something else. Paradoxically, if I want to find a price (in Euros) of a specific product, I am inundated with too many to check, mostly in another currency and I am given no way to sort the data (by price, anyway). Even "compare" sites seem to be mushrooming out of control. Give me Wikipedia anyday, I use it for my archaeological research, for detailed information on GIS, GPS and other spatial technologies and for computing. For example, I found an article with excellent advice (from a citation of a Wikipedia article, I believe) on the best techniques for placing thermal gel between your CPU and its heat sink (& fan). The article, considered, tested and carefully assessed the results of quite a range of options for quite a range of products. It took a scientific and rigorous approach that one rarely sees on the Internet and all without any specific commercial drive. It gave me the confidence to clean off and replace the thermal gel between my CPU and heat sink- and my CPU's thermal shutdowns are all but gone now. If I had tried to read even a few of the contending opinions on the Internet, my PC would still be having thermal shutdown and I would be going bonkers!

Of course, I wouldn't expect to find the answers to conspiracy theories on Wikipedia or anywhere else for that matter (and I find this Wikileaks thing intolerable) - no amount of scientific rigour can satisfy all the contending "theories" (they're not really even hypotheses) and if you tried to ask them to use Occam's Razor and weigh up which possiblity is more likely, then you'd become part of the "them" that (for some reason I can't quite fathom) "wants to hide the truth".

There, now that's my opinion. If I've offended anyone, I'm sorry. It's just the way I see it folks!

All the best,

Peter.

itareus said:

Couple of facts:

Fairford opened to passengers on 15 Jan 1873 and closed to both passenger and goods on 18 June 1962.

Other dates are uncertain.

Click to expand...

City of Fairford maybe, but Witney still got goods traffic pulled by the occasional class 08, and more commonly by class 23 diesel locomotives.

magickmaker said:

City of Fairford maybe, but Witney still got goods traffic pulled by the occasional class 08, and more commonly by class 23 diesel locomotives.

Click to expand...

Correct - Witney Goods Station (which was the original Witney passenger station until 15th January 1873, when it was replaced by the new passenger station on the Fairford extension) closed to Goods traffic on 2nd November 1970.

Gwr use of two brake vans

If I remember correctly they used 2 guards vans at Didcot Power Station before they changed the yard layout. I also remember the power station 2 miles west of Reading (anybody else remember it?) There I saw 2 guards vans when I was a lad. I think there were instances on the China clay lines on the Newquay Branch where this occured and also east of St Austell.
Hope this helps.