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ELECTRIFICATION OF ALL RAILROADS
- Thread starter BobCass
- Start date
cascaderailroad
New member
OK ... That does it ... I'm electrifying the Horseshoe Curve route from Harrisburg all the way to Chicago: http://i525.photobucket.com/albums/cc339/cascaderailroad/PRR-TGV1.jpg (Which was planned in actuallity, in the way back days, as well as a high speed rail project ... but it was canned because of costs).
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Hi,
In Europe most major lines have been electrified. Diesel powered trains are left for those lines where passenger and freight volume are too low to justify the cost of electrification. These lines are also candidates for closure.
You will, of course, also need electric locomotives. Tracks do not need to be renewed, if they are in good shape. It would, of course, not make much sense to invest in electrification of a lines with worn out tracks.
I would like to remind you, that 100 years ago the US played a leading role in the development of electric traction. The Nortwest railway linking the Great lakes with Seattle was fully electrified. When it ran into financial difficulties, its new owners broke down the catenaires to sell the the copper and by diesel electric locomotives from the proceeds.
From my alien perspective it appears if you want to (re-)electrify US railroads, you would first have to purge the county from the tea party and GE from the diesel lobby.
Cheers,
Konni
In Europe most major lines have been electrified. Diesel powered trains are left for those lines where passenger and freight volume are too low to justify the cost of electrification. These lines are also candidates for closure.
You will, of course, also need electric locomotives. Tracks do not need to be renewed, if they are in good shape. It would, of course, not make much sense to invest in electrification of a lines with worn out tracks.
I would like to remind you, that 100 years ago the US played a leading role in the development of electric traction. The Nortwest railway linking the Great lakes with Seattle was fully electrified. When it ran into financial difficulties, its new owners broke down the catenaires to sell the the copper and by diesel electric locomotives from the proceeds.
From my alien perspective it appears if you want to (re-)electrify US railroads, you would first have to purge the county from the tea party and GE from the diesel lobby.
Cheers,
Konni
Prius(tm) on Steel Wheels?
OK, here's a silly idea.
The principal problem seems to be that while mainline/steep grade electrification is eminently economical and environmentally sound (especially if the electricity is provided by nuclear power, but let's not go there), infrastructure for all branch lines is prohibitively expensive in a place as big as the US, Australia or Russia.
So why not take a hint from the Prius and the Volt hybrids? Give the next-generation diesel locomotive a lightweight Faively pantograph, AC traction motors and a transformer (no rectifier required). On the mainline, the pantograph goes up and the diesel idles or shuts down (I know, railroad diesels run all the time - this needs work). Off the mainline, the diesel starts (or just throttles up), the pantograph comes down and the fans cooling the transformer stop.
This has the added advantage that, if you pull your catenary power directly from commercial lines at, say, 66kV, you have diesel backup to address commercial power unreliability. It might even be possible, with today's power technology, to fit all the electric equipment into a module that would attach to an existing road switcher's back - they get plenty of lumps and bumps up there already.
Think that would work? Which major (or minor) railroad would be the first customer?
OK, here's a silly idea.
The principal problem seems to be that while mainline/steep grade electrification is eminently economical and environmentally sound (especially if the electricity is provided by nuclear power, but let's not go there), infrastructure for all branch lines is prohibitively expensive in a place as big as the US, Australia or Russia.
So why not take a hint from the Prius and the Volt hybrids? Give the next-generation diesel locomotive a lightweight Faively pantograph, AC traction motors and a transformer (no rectifier required). On the mainline, the pantograph goes up and the diesel idles or shuts down (I know, railroad diesels run all the time - this needs work). Off the mainline, the diesel starts (or just throttles up), the pantograph comes down and the fans cooling the transformer stop.
This has the added advantage that, if you pull your catenary power directly from commercial lines at, say, 66kV, you have diesel backup to address commercial power unreliability. It might even be possible, with today's power technology, to fit all the electric equipment into a module that would attach to an existing road switcher's back - they get plenty of lumps and bumps up there already.
Think that would work? Which major (or minor) railroad would be the first customer?
OK, here's a silly idea.
The principal problem seems to be that while mainline/steep grade electrification is eminently economical and environmentally sound (especially if the electricity is provided by nuclear power, but let's not go there), infrastructure for all branch lines is prohibitively expensive in a place as big as the US, Australia or Russia.
So why not take a hint from the Prius and the Volt hybrids? Give the next-generation diesel locomotive a lightweight Faively pantograph, AC traction motors and a transformer (no rectifier required). On the mainline, the pantograph goes up and the diesel idles or shuts down (I know, railroad diesels run all the time - this needs work). Off the mainline, the diesel starts (or just throttles up), the pantograph comes down and the fans cooling the transformer stop.
This has the added advantage that, if you pull your catenary power directly from commercial lines at, say, 66kV, you have diesel backup to address commercial power unreliability. It might even be possible, with today's power technology, to fit all the electric equipment into a module that would attach to an existing road switcher's back - they get plenty of lumps and bumps up there already.
Think that would work? Which major (or minor) railroad would be the first customer?
Actually there are some engines that do that. the P32ACDM is one of them (uses 3rd rail, not Pantos...) Due to New York Penn Station (being underground) not allowing diesels into the shed. So the trains that don't run on the electrified lines use these engines to do just that.
peter
Higher Voltage
PerRock -
That's about the idea (same as the New Haven's FL9s), but to make it economical to expand over new mileage instead of being limited to a century-old, heavy-infrastructure system we need to move from (relatively) low-voltage DC to high-voltage AC (cutting down transmission losses, weight of all conducting components, and icompatibility with the commercial power grid). That also means locomotives need to work at 60Hz instead of 25Hz.
(I'm not an engineer in either the railroad or the non-railroad sense, but the superiority of AC over DC for geographically large systems is easy to demonstrate. About the only advantage to DC is regenerative braking, which has its own problems.)
PerRock -
That's about the idea (same as the New Haven's FL9s), but to make it economical to expand over new mileage instead of being limited to a century-old, heavy-infrastructure system we need to move from (relatively) low-voltage DC to high-voltage AC (cutting down transmission losses, weight of all conducting components, and icompatibility with the commercial power grid). That also means locomotives need to work at 60Hz instead of 25Hz.
(I'm not an engineer in either the railroad or the non-railroad sense, but the superiority of AC over DC for geographically large systems is easy to demonstrate. About the only advantage to DC is regenerative braking, which has its own problems.)
Dual power locos (electro-diesels) are certainly not new - the UK's Southern region ran quite a few on the 3rd rail. The only downside is the extra weight of engine and fuel to carry around when on electric traction.
I thought that regenerative braking was also possible on AC systems (I'm not an electrical engineer either).
Paul
I thought that regenerative braking was also possible on AC systems (I'm not an electrical engineer either).
Paul
Regenerative Braking
paulzmay -
My (limited and simplistic) understanding is that the traction motors can act as generators on either system - that's what dynamic braking does, it just dumps the energy into the air instead of into the power circuit - but the problem in single-phase AC is getting the current synched up and back into the grid. 3-phase AC (as in the Great Northern's original tunnel electrification) could upload generated power back into the system easily because it used synchronous motors and everything was thus inherently locked in phase... but that had other problems, such as a limited number of speeds (one or two) and complex pickup systems (two overhead wires and two trolley poles per loco, which must never touch).
The GN's regenerative braking failed once, disastrously, when it tried to upload more current into the overhead than the train wiring could handle. Heavy train, long down-grade, handbrakes only... bad news.
paulzmay -
My (limited and simplistic) understanding is that the traction motors can act as generators on either system - that's what dynamic braking does, it just dumps the energy into the air instead of into the power circuit - but the problem in single-phase AC is getting the current synched up and back into the grid. 3-phase AC (as in the Great Northern's original tunnel electrification) could upload generated power back into the system easily because it used synchronous motors and everything was thus inherently locked in phase... but that had other problems, such as a limited number of speeds (one or two) and complex pickup systems (two overhead wires and two trolley poles per loco, which must never touch).
The GN's regenerative braking failed once, disastrously, when it tried to upload more current into the overhead than the train wiring could handle. Heavy train, long down-grade, handbrakes only... bad news.
amtrak2041864
High Speed Rail!!
I really dont want to be the one to bump treads but I find this one is very interesting but I suggest is the railroads electrify their High Speed intermodal High Speed Lines and have dual power locomotives to travel into the yards. Bombardier's Traxx dual power locomotives are a great example of how it be done.
cascaderailroad
New member
Lots of caternary power poles still exist on the NS/CSX lines, but the caternary wires have been long ago removed.
It is very expensive, labor intensive, and constant maintenance is a big downside to electrification.
The PRR was once electrified from Harve De Grace MD, to Enola Yard.
The South Phila Greenwhich yard was also at one time electrified.
The GG1's were built in Altoona Pa, and all were towed to Harrisburg, where electrification started.
Electrification and a high speed rail program, from Harrisburg to Pittsburgh/Chicago was planned in the 1930's .. but was so costly, that all future plans for electrification were scrapped.
It is very expensive, labor intensive, and constant maintenance is a big downside to electrification.
The PRR was once electrified from Harve De Grace MD, to Enola Yard.
The South Phila Greenwhich yard was also at one time electrified.
The GG1's were built in Altoona Pa, and all were towed to Harrisburg, where electrification started.
Electrification and a high speed rail program, from Harrisburg to Pittsburgh/Chicago was planned in the 1930's .. but was so costly, that all future plans for electrification were scrapped.
paulzmay -
The GN's regenerative braking failed once, disastrously, when it tried to upload more current into the overhead than the train wiring could handle. Heavy train, long down-grade, handbrakes only... bad news.
Blowing out the wiring cost them their air brakes? I guess it could if they didn't have air built up when the system fried...
I Know it would cost a bundle of money..But in the end no air Pullution..I know there is a lot of you guys that live in the Denver, Los Angeles, Cities etc..that know about Brown out Days..And its only going to get worse..
There is a cheaper concept in the making....HUGE battery cars.....
You know how power is transmitted in Mate-slug relationships? Well, super-size it... it can be charged by dynamics going downhill from, say the rockies, and can perhaps be used 2 or 3 more times on a trans-con trip...
If battery tech improoves, as well as max axle loading, a full intermodal trrain could be powered for about an hour or more exiting and entering large cities. There was a brief study on this in Railway Age, an industry periodical; the route used for this estimation was LA-Chicago, with diesel costing $4 / gallon, with a 50% increase in battery storage (over current lead-acid).
Where are we right now? Just NS BP4 999. What would it cost to test? A couple more MU cables and a "boat anchor".
What would it cost for fullscale electrification? I remember reading in a 1960-s edition of TRAINS that to break even in 20 years, you would have to run about 48 trains a day on double-track in each direction (for a total of 96) with an average train weight of 4000-5000 tons. I admit that it's out of date, but in an industry that used to be lucky to get a 3% return on investment, that may have been a game changer. Nowadays, with a financially competitive 8-11% ROI, it just doesn't make that much economic sense.
Red_Rattler
Since 09 May 2003
< OOPS, because this was replied to just recently, I didn't know the original poster started this in 2010. >
Forget what I typed.
Forget what I typed.
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cascaderailroad
New member
When a corporation that supplies (valet delivers) electric cars to train stations all along a RR or light rail line, then and only then will trains be full of passengers ... When these custom
delivered electric cars, or electric taxi's, or chaufeur driven electric cars are available custom delivered within 1/2 hours notice, by a customer on a cell phone requesting a car, paid for by a major credit card ... Then and only then will light rail, and passenger trains regain service ... Untill then, we will only see "Park & Ride' stations jam packed full of customers polluting "Hoopdies" ... As people are addicted the the convienience of the gasoline driven automobile.
When all of this, transtions into electric cars ... then electric trains will be convienient.
But as any given train station requires 2-3 forms of mass transit (or more) from any given home ... people will continue to drive gasoline powered cars instead, bypassing electric trains.
Why the US purposely scrapped and sabotaged the electric car industry, is totally ludcrous !
delivered electric cars, or electric taxi's, or chaufeur driven electric cars are available custom delivered within 1/2 hours notice, by a customer on a cell phone requesting a car, paid for by a major credit card ... Then and only then will light rail, and passenger trains regain service ... Untill then, we will only see "Park & Ride' stations jam packed full of customers polluting "Hoopdies" ... As people are addicted the the convienience of the gasoline driven automobile.
When all of this, transtions into electric cars ... then electric trains will be convienient.
But as any given train station requires 2-3 forms of mass transit (or more) from any given home ... people will continue to drive gasoline powered cars instead, bypassing electric trains.
Why the US purposely scrapped and sabotaged the electric car industry, is totally ludcrous !
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SantaFebuff
That's So Trainz Forum
Aw, no one has spoken about how none of the freight cars are rated over 79mph... If we wanted High Speed Rail, we'd need to build all new freight cars. Also, we would have to rebuild every mainline in America to make it work. The problem is some European countries like France, and Asian countries like Japan faced economic issues to the extreme. Japan was still running steam locomotives when we had diesel-electrics. Eventually both were taken off their feet by the work of a complete overhaul where their rail system was taken and completely redone. I don't think we can face such a system here, but what I can tell you is that we are in a transformation as of right now. We have had only really 3 major signal phases in America, each one came with it's own operations. The first phase was the ball signal and early train running. Second was the semaphores who brought in the first truly modern style of signalling. Then came Searchlights, and your 1930s-1960s semaphore replacements. Now, we have LED "darth vader" signals. Now, the darth vader isn't a new signal. GRS, US&S, and all the big signalmen could have sold you a copy of any one of their non-searchlight signals with the kind of visor cap they have, but the new one are computerized and LED. I even heard that Safetran was almost done working on an App for the Smartphones that signalmen could test crossings from their phone. As of now, I think that's an actual thing. So as we do small upgrades, we are slowly moving forward, but such a leap to electrification may cause to great a shock. Keeping in mind I'm using generalizations. Obviously there are still one or two or more semaphores on mainlines today, so obviously not everyone's out to spend for upgrades on some things.
Cheers,
Joshua
Cheers,
Joshua
Unless something big happens to stem pollution, we and our children will suffer..I know this actually is a small start(Electrifying)..But we have to start somewhere..It seems to me that there is to much emphasis put on the almighty dollar..Money can be recoverd, life cannot.
PereMarquette1225fan
Member
One simple phrase to sum this up...Not going to happen.
I was talking to a CSX conductor based out of Tampa, Florida about this a year ago, and here's how it went down.
PM1225fan: Thanks for taking the time to talk with me Bud.
CSX conductor: No prob.
PM1225fan: So, do you think railroads like CSX could electrify their entire lines?
CSX c: Nope. (chuckles) If we did that, we'd be broke.
PM: How so?
CSX c: Well, for one thing we don't make vast sums of cash to electrify the entire system.
PM: Well, what about the Pennsylvania Railroad and it's huge electric network?
CSX c: Well, I'm an ACL guy, not a PRR guy. But, I'll say this, the PRR had the traffic to warrant such an electrification project. But, railroads like the Coast Line (Atlantic Coast Line) and the Air Line (Seaboard Air Line) didn't have as much traffic to warrant such a project that the PRR had to contend with.
PM: So, you're saying it would have bankrupted the ACL and SBD if they had electrified like the PRR did?
CSX c: No. (chuckles) What I'm saying is, they didn't have the funds to do it then. And today with railroads like NS, CSXT and UP making huge profits, we'd be broke with electrification projects.
PM: Elaborate.
CSX c: It's simple...the cost is high due to the time it would take to study the routes, then choosing a power supply and eventually developing an electric locomotive similar in performance to these GEVO's made by General Electric. We'd be better off using diesels until the day comes when electric locomotives are cheap and electrification becomes more lucrative and then, we may consider electrification as an answer.
PM: And the rolling stock?
CSX c: No [censored]! (chuckles) We'd have to update freight cars that could carry freight with ease at speed in excess of the current maximum speed which is 79 m.p.h., and that would take a long time to do. Need I say more.
PM: No. (laughs) You don't have to say anything more.
CSX c: Thought so. (laughs) Now, if you'll excuse me, I need to go get inside Q453 otherwise we might be late. See ya 'round.
PM: Okay.
I was talking to a CSX conductor based out of Tampa, Florida about this a year ago, and here's how it went down.
PM1225fan: Thanks for taking the time to talk with me Bud.
CSX conductor: No prob.
PM1225fan: So, do you think railroads like CSX could electrify their entire lines?
CSX c: Nope. (chuckles) If we did that, we'd be broke.
PM: How so?
CSX c: Well, for one thing we don't make vast sums of cash to electrify the entire system.
PM: Well, what about the Pennsylvania Railroad and it's huge electric network?
CSX c: Well, I'm an ACL guy, not a PRR guy. But, I'll say this, the PRR had the traffic to warrant such an electrification project. But, railroads like the Coast Line (Atlantic Coast Line) and the Air Line (Seaboard Air Line) didn't have as much traffic to warrant such a project that the PRR had to contend with.
PM: So, you're saying it would have bankrupted the ACL and SBD if they had electrified like the PRR did?
CSX c: No. (chuckles) What I'm saying is, they didn't have the funds to do it then. And today with railroads like NS, CSXT and UP making huge profits, we'd be broke with electrification projects.
PM: Elaborate.
CSX c: It's simple...the cost is high due to the time it would take to study the routes, then choosing a power supply and eventually developing an electric locomotive similar in performance to these GEVO's made by General Electric. We'd be better off using diesels until the day comes when electric locomotives are cheap and electrification becomes more lucrative and then, we may consider electrification as an answer.
PM: And the rolling stock?
CSX c: No [censored]! (chuckles) We'd have to update freight cars that could carry freight with ease at speed in excess of the current maximum speed which is 79 m.p.h., and that would take a long time to do. Need I say more.
PM: No. (laughs) You don't have to say anything more.
CSX c: Thought so. (laughs) Now, if you'll excuse me, I need to go get inside Q453 otherwise we might be late. See ya 'round.
PM: Okay.
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