Surveyor 2.0 - Discussion Thread

We have been informed were getting Surveyor 2 with here's a peek of what's in it.

Just curious who decides on what's being added/updated and how is that decision made

Also stated " Firstly, this update is about "tools" and not things like the terrain, environment etc."

Can we expect an update for " tools " used to create and manipulate the terrain all these new tools are centered around ?
 
big_b perhaps you've misunderstood my post. Our current terrain is a 5m grid divided into triangles. This limits where the terrain can be manipulated (i.e. the corners of those triangles).

The tools in S20 allow you to manipulate the terrain just as you do with the current height up/down and set height plus there will be new options.

In terms of decision processes, it's a bit like renovating a house. "Which area needs the most work most urgently."

Something along the lines of "check the list of 1,000 things that we know would help the product/people are asking for, try to determine which is the "best" thing to work on."

This includes balancing what we think is the next most important thing to update, how long will that take, what will be the benefits (to both users and sales), can it be done in a timely manner and does it break anything? Is there anything that is equally important with bigger benefits? Is there else anything quick and easy that has benefits?"

So things like a new terrain system (~6 months and potentially breaking compatibility) either get ruled out or moved down the list.

We've been working on these tools for almost a year now and we're pretty confident people are going to love them. It won't be that long before we can share more detail and then get external testers involved.
 
Just picking up on Tony's point, I have now started using the 5m grid in key areas much more.

Can anyone throw some light on how much difference the 5m grid makes rather than using the 10m grid exclusively in terms of weighting on FPS. It must be quite important if it is a FPS killer.

Many thanks

Graham Shefford Bedfordshire
 
Thanks for the response Tony on how things work in deciding what's happening and when it actually began.

Regarding the 5mtr grid I've been using it since it first came out.
Basically if I can't alter terrain enough near the track it is changed to 5mtr only where I need it to get the terrain as I want it
as for FPS I've really never noticed any difference assets used seem to cause more problems.
 
The 5m grid is takes up 4x more storage than the 10m grid. While it does increase poly count, it is only one of the many contributors to overall scene poly count so whether you hit any performance bottlenecks or not depends very much on the route.
 
@Tony_Hilliam - Dear Tony suggest you make a new version Trs21 with Surveyor 2.0 and charge money for this new version.
 
@Tony_Hilliam - Dear Tony suggest you make a new version Trs21 with Surveyor 2.0 and charge money for this new version.

That's the plan - more likely TRS22. It will also depend upon how long it takes to polish everything, how well it is received by Trainz Plus and Gold Class members, and how many other features we may decide to add prior to a new Trainz release.
 
Thanks for your responses.

I was going to experiment and I have divided my grid into "Hi Res" and "Lo Res " areas and will proceed with caution
 
Tony, I have a simple and I believe very useful request. Please allow me to right click on the preview window of the Trains tab and choose "Open in Asset Preview".

Hint for readers with old eyes like me. Right Click on the screenshot Tony provided and choose Open Image or Open in new tab and you will get the full size image that allows you to see the details.

Thanks Tony,

William
 
I guess this will get buried in the avalanche of suggestions, but I have one about ground textures. It would be useful if the Surveyor texture palette could be filtered and/or sorted by properties that actually matter but which we can't currently do comprehensive searches for. Things such as;

- Average or median RGB colour value (perhaps a colour space graphic with a cursor that finds all textures within its selected RGB value range).
- seasonal or not (based on config content rather than “soft” info like usernames or keywords).
- snowline snow or not (again based on hard config evidence).
- texture type legacy, no normal map.
- texture type legacy, with normal map.
- texture type PBR, no parallax.
- texture type PBR, with parallax.

We would need the ability to apply these criteria in combinations, for example to list “all non-parallax PBR textures with dark brown colour tone and a snowline snow option”. If we could have all this, then it would be much easier and faster to home in on the textures we need.

And one separate request. The current thumbnail images in the palette are always much darker than they appear in the game. Would it be possible to get a more accurate match between the two?

.
 
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Yes filtering with 20k items is real important Dino
that's what i asked in post 4 of this thread
Think the thumbnails you see, is what the creator added to the ground texture
they are not generated like FI the side of the trains you see in the Driver list
that would be very slow.
 
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Tony.

I am sure whatever you have planned is not something taken lightly. However, just as a gentle reminder, please please please keep in mind that any feature that breaks backward compatibility this significantly should be either optional or have some sort of conversion tool to ensure the longevity of our community-created content that is so unique and dear to the Trainz community.

There have been many backwards-non-compatible features implemented over the years and while they have certainly obsoleted some content, this was limited to a small portion of content, often falling under the "content is too old and don't look good in the new version" category, and/or was able to be updated and brought back to life in newer Trainz versions. Which is fine.

What you are suggesting above, is a complete, utter 100% obsoleting of every single route ever created for Trainz, many of which have had years or even decades worth of work in them and some that look more at home in an art gallery than an indie train sim. You are already aware of the complaint against such a move, I just hope you also recognize the gravity of this complaint.

I'd very much hope it would be a once converted to new system, you can't go back type of option.
 
A change from the Grid terrain is a big task and has long been planned. It pretty much makes existing routes and texturing redundant. So the alternative complaint would be “so I need to discard the last 20 years work”.

While the new tools are different our testing indicates after a short learning curve you can pretty much work in a similar manner as now, but do things quicker and easier (like moving 100:things with a click instead of 100+ clicks).

Vern - perhaps re-read the features as this is the least “cosmetic” change ever. If you think copy paste from one route to another is cosmetic, for example, then I’m not sure what sort of solution you’re after.

The overall feeling I get here from some of the negative comments is “we want more”. But I don’t see any “and were willing to pay for making it happen”.

We’d love to implement every suggestion sooner rather than later. With 10 times more staff we’d be at least 5 times faster at implementing them. If all our regular Trainz users “invested” a few $ a week as Gold Class members we’d get things done much much quicker.

As it stands, we do as much as we can with what we’ve got. The option for us to do more rests with you guys.

(The alternative is to stick with what you’ve got - no extra charge).

Is there a roadmap for what N3V are working on in the future?

After bitter experience, I wouldn't consider pre-funding with a subscription without knowing pretty much precisely what is coming.

PS given my support fo Auran and N3V over the years, I slightly resent the implication that those who don't subscribe aren't prepared to pay.
 
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PS given my support fo Auran and N3V over the years, I slightly resent the implication that those who don't subscribe aren't prepared to pay.

I didn't read that at all in his post. He simply made a statement that if there were more subscribers then things could get done faster - an obvious "no brainer" to me.

PS I have also given my support to Auran and N3V over the years and just recently decided to become a subscriber to Trainz Plus, and bought TS3 as well, because it would give more support to N3V in producing a better product.
 
Everyone who is an advocate of Trainz or spends their money supporting us is valued. If our existing users spent more we’d be better off. There are literally hundreds of thousands of ex users who, if they returned and purchased something, we’d be far better off.

My point was simply that the speed of development is pretty much predicated upon the revenues we receive. Everyone wants more things more quickly. Subscription to Gold Membership is probably the best value for money to make that happen.

Conversely buying every DLC would be much better since it would cost you much more vs membership therefore better margins for us to devote to future development.
 
We understand this Tony
but why are many users now ex-users?
I know many of the dutch creators, that went to the competition and make stuff there now
Years i fight to keep them interested and help support their creations
If the base is better in the competition they leave, if development is not what they want they leave
The team is small can't do it all, no-one expects that.


Currently too much gets broken in SP's and beta's for no apparent reason,
changes are made that no-one requested, do not change what works even if old
and good suggestions (read suggestion boxcar) are shelved or ignored.


All here love Trainz, you have a real loyal fan/userbase
Not all contributions are in cash, everyone that has ideas, tests or creates I respect and thank.
It made Trainz great and will keep it going, hopefully for many years.
Realize that not everyone is interested in all content.


Want cash, listen to the users, and sell bug free TRS22 with s2.0 (20 year anniversary edition)
aim at 2 weeks before x-mas :)
 
I guess this will get buried in the avalanche of suggestions, but I have one about ground textures. It would be useful if the Surveyor texture palette could be filtered and/or sorted by properties that actually matter but which we can't currently do comprehensive searches for. Things such as;
- Average or median RGB colour value (perhaps a colour space graphic with a cursor that finds all textures within its selected RGB value range).
- seasonal or not (based on config content rather than “soft” info like usernames or keywords).
- snowline snow or not (again based on hard config evidence).
- texture type legacy, no normal map.
- texture type legacy, with normal map.
- texture type PBR, no parallax.
- texture type PBR, with parallax.
We would need the ability to apply these criteria in combinations, for example to list “all non-parallax PBR textures with dark brown colour tone and a snowline snow option”. If we could have all this, then it would be much easier and faster to home in on the textures we need.
And one separate request. The current thumbnail images in the palette are always much darker than they appear in the game. Would it be possible to get a more accurate match between the two?
.
Nothing more to say :
These are great suggestions, which I fully support !
 
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