T:ANE Is Only One-Half Of A Railroad Program

First, I know little about rail operations, so I guess.

T:ANE will be a very pretty visual example of a real railroad. However, it lacks the capability of emulating a real railroad in an operational sense. In that regard it is just a good base product. How do you get it to perform all the functions of a railroad except in simple locked scenarios.

Example - flight simulation now offers complete real weather interactions with aircraft and airport operations. Complex failure modes are available. Actual air traffic controller, in their off time, man a world wide system similar to the real international air management processes. There are aircraft that are fully modeled to react to an owner not changing spark plugs, charging the battery, water in the fuel, etc. with real consequences.

In the Trainz system we have very little real world emulation. The Trainz world is more akin to a model rail layout. In fact only a simple layout for it lacks the complexity of a rail club's large layouts with real world activities emulated.

In one day 10 different customers walk in and place orders for pickup and delivery of items. The passenger end of the business struggles with equipment and weather, etc. Tracks fail, signals act up, equipment issues toss any schedules into the basket. This is where T:ANE needs some help.

TimeTables seem to be the beginning of the story and delivery of goods and passengers the end. What happens in the middle is missing. An opportunity for an overlay program to interface to T:ANE converting the real world into something T:ANE can emulate and customers can interact with. Without introducing real operations you have a product that will drift toward the RailWorks model and become boring over time.

There have been attempts at doing this but the complexity and limitations made them unpopular. Think of a new product that interfaces to T:ANE and translates customer orders and passenger schedules into reality with all of the environmental, mechanical logistical and management issue the real world presents. Finally, multiplayer will have a sense of reality.

I forget exactly how many years ago it was but a very similar scenario to your "real world emulation" was proposed for Trainz. Ideas such as fully working maintenance shops where locos would have to spend some time being repaired, accounting for running costs vs revenue (as in Railroad Tycoon II) were to be included in sessions, etc, etc. As far as I can recall, not too many users of the forum at the time where wildly enthusiastic about these proposals. In any case, they were dropped by Auran as other issues, such as bankruptcy, became more important.

Personally, I just want to drive trains. I don't want to have to spend time balancing account ledgers, organising maintenance schedules, or doing other administrative stuff, no matter how important that is to "real world railroading". Some of your suggestions, such as timetables, have already been implemented in various ways although perhaps not sufficiently well enough. These may come as rules and other 3rd party addons in the future.

First of all, Trainz IS a model railroad simulation program. I don't think it was ever meant to emulate the actual workings or a real railroad. I think most people who are into model railroading do it for the relaxation, creativity and escape from real world problems it provides. Bringing real world problems into Trainz would turn it into something akin to "SimCity" and I think that would take away from what it was actually meant to be. A better system of customer waybilling, ordering and releasing cars and easier interchange functions would add some realism and interest to Trainz but to bring real world problems into it would, I think, be a mistake.

I think some realism in the multiplayer end would be great. But for the regular user, like me, who just wants to play with model trains at a very low cost, I think it is fine the way it is. I connect my PC to the 48 inch TV and it looks great.
Carl

Hmmm, I don't know where the notion that Trainz IS a model railroad simulation program comes from but from where I sit, Trainz is whatever you want it to be. Some use it to create objects and only use Trainz to confirm the end result is satisfactory. Others build super detailed worlds to the point were the massive amount of objects brings all but the highest graphics cards to their knees; looks great but not really usable. Then there are those that want to go for train rides, either in DCC or in cab mode. Having other AI trains in the mix makes for interesting viewing. Having real world problems and issues like broken equipment or delays might be interesting to some but for others, it would be either an annoyance or a complete turnoff. And then there are those that want to recreate a working railroad in all its details. For those, having all the problems, issues and faults would just add to the experience.

As long as the added features are user selectable, and don't take time away from fixing basic functionality, I say go for it.
By the way, how long after the flight sims were released did it take to get all those real world interactions integrated into their game play.

martinvk said:

As long as the added features are user selectable, and don't take time away from fixing basic functionality, I say go for it.

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I agree with this statement 100%.

As long as the added features are user selectable, and don't take time away from fixing basic functionality, I say go for it.
By the way, how long after the flight sims were released did it take to get all those real world interactions integrated into their game play.

It took years to get to a level of air controlling to get it right. Remember that is a 3-dimensional world.

I would envision a totally separate program which would interface, in a non-intrusive way, with TANE. If you don't buy it TANE remains as is. N3V may have to add some APIs (Application Program Interfaces) that is fairly easy so long as it is done with some expertise. Again, in the flight sim world we have those and the core program provides the APIs(hooks) to get or offer info and functions.

I do not like such programs, or features, in the flight sim. But I think I would like them in TRAINZ. In the flight sim world I do not want to maintain an aircraft and worry about required FAA maintenance and that stuff. So I understand that some people would see this "addon" as a pain in the butt. Others would salivate at the thought of slowly turning on various "reality" functions and using them to set up a copy of an old or new railroad time table.

As an addon that is made to interface with TANE its creation might be by a group of people who want the level of realism and have the skills to reproduce it. The programming would be like a very large signaling script. Lot's of This, Then, Else stuff with an occasional query to TANE for info or to send a list of commands to set an Interlocking path or two. Market it thru N3V and get a a majority portion of the sale since N3V will sell more stuff to occupy the new "real world".

The Trainz program is the framework that supports the basic environmental conditions and the rest is done by content creators using customized scenery, locomotives, rolling-stock, trackside objects, industries, rules and driver commands. Industries can be made to communicate their needs and specialized rules can be constructed to dispatch trains to the industries.

An example of this is found in the "Potteries Loop Line" route where a rule called "Shedmaster" inspired by ElStoko, calculates how many wagons are required and assigns tasks to suitable locomotives to source the required product and convey it to the industries, all under AI control.

All this complex operational activity takes a lot of setting up and is not a job that the average Trainz user would feel like tackling. It takes a certain kind of dedication to be able to run the same session over and over again, correcting mistakes made by the AI, improving on past performance and trying to foresee future snags.

In that kind of session, the role of the user is to oversee the whole operation and try to find ways to keep things running as smoothly as possible for as long as possible, so that player-driven trains can weave their way through the industrial traffic without being deadlocked.

Great things can be accomplished, given the tools and the imagination to visualize the end result. Trainz is one of the tools. The ability to extend the basic operation is what makes it such an incredibly rewarding game.

Trevor - Author of Shedmaster.

This does sound like too much work, though some aspects of the realism would be nice such as better weather effects such as leaves on the rails, or slippery tracks due to inclement weather. So would better and easier scheduling be helpful too as this has always been a bane and Achilles Heal for the Trainz series right from day one.

I'm one of those people who likes to build somewhat detailed routes which I can then operate and enjoy using a bit of imagination. I send my road units to the shops for "repairs" while I switch freight cars with the local switcher. This bit of imagination though adds to the fun because there is no need to wait out the actual time needed to repair a locomotive. In this respect, this is much more akin to a model railroad as mag315 said, and is something I always thought of Trainz as being anyway.

I agree though, if people want this kind of micromanagement ability right down to spitting on a rag to clean the wheels, let them as long as it doesn't interfere with the program as is.

John

martinvk said:

Hmmm, I don't know where the notion that Trainz IS a model railroad simulation program comes from.........

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It comes from the fact that Greg originally conceived it as such but like Topsy it just grow'd.

Elaborating upon what John said, it would be nice to have special weather effects (never thought of leaves on rails). I'd brought up a similar topic in one of my many 'What-if' Suggestions threads. The problem is, the Universe and Mother Nature play their cards with very little struggle, such as wind blowing rain sideways, hail damaging sheet metal, rain decreasing friction, etc.. But each and every one of those things listed has very complex properties within its internal physics, which it'd take N3V years upon years to fully code. So what the computerized graphics industry resorts to is hard-coding these elements, which suffices, considering what we have today. Physics are slowly developing to be independent, but it's still a long ways there.


All in all, I don't think N3V has to go as far as calculating the friction between rail and wheel at initial velocity, and generate a sound wave that corresponds with it. But, at least give us more than 4 default track sounds?


Oh, about the realistic railway, it's more than possible, if it was listed as a stretch goal, N3V's up to implement it in due time. I'd expect simple things—nothing too explicit— like locomotive failure having a probability set in config file, or wagon leakage, and better AI. That's a must.

EverTrainz said:

...or wagon leakage.

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Spongebob: Explode?

In all seriousness, new features for Trainz would be nice. It would be nice for the old tracksound to return back to trainz. After I first played UTC, the tracksounds for it were not as annoying as the current trainz tracksound is. Maybe N3V could implament something so not only can you select some built in sounds, but you can use your own, and if need be, disable the tracksound altogether.

Another suggestion that was posted in these forums a fair while ago was to make the startup of locomotives more realistic. This generated some favourable comments until it was pointed out that getting a steam locomotive from cold to full steam pressure took several hours. Likewise getting a modern diesel loco from cold to fully powered is not like starting your family car. While a few people stated that they would not mind that (for the diesels at least) most were not enthusiastic about the idea.

I was recently part of a project, The Safeworking Officer Project with elstoko and ringarooma (both involved in the Potteries Loop Line), that created rules and assets, all on the DLS, for TS12 and T:ANE to add the functions of safeworking tokens (staff and tickets, electric staff, bells and telegraphs) to control trains between stations. The setting up process, from the users point of view, is complex and as far as we can tell, has not been taken up by many users - perhaps few want that level of realism.

Like other posters in this thread, I have no problems with increasing the level of operational realism in the sim provided it is optional. If I wanted total realism, I would probably go and work for a rail operator.

I feel that timetables, maintenance schedules and such are well beyond the scope of Trainz as it was conceived. The original intent, as I understand it, was to build railroads.
Perhaps there are those out there who would rather prefer a game like Railroad Dispatcher (or whatever it was called).
To a degree, such timetable operation is implemented in scripted scenarios. Mundane maintenance operations are handled by a professional engineering staff, who read lots of technical specs and train logs.! I do that for $$; NOT for fun and relaxation.
I'm no software guru, but it seems to me that the complexity of scripting timetable operations, for an entire route that can be any configuration, for any time era, for a myriad of train cars and locomotives, from a host of different countries is totally impractical.
T:ANE, as it stands, requires a decent set of hardware to run, as a modern game/sim. What do you think all that extra code and database tracking is going to do to performance?

Leaves on the line? Frozen points (switches)? Engines breaking down?

You'd never work out what was causing your AI to work incorrectly. LOL

wheelsonfire said:

Leaves on the line? Frozen points (switches)? Engines breaking down?

You'd never work out what was causing your AI to work incorrectly. LOL

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Isnt that what Run 8 Studios Train Sim does?

I'm no software guru, but it seems to me that the complexity of scripting timetable operations, for an entire route that can be any configuration, for any time era, for a myriad of train cars and locomotives, from a host of different countries is totally impractical.

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The German "Zusi" programme has managed timetable operations very effectively for many years and will presumably be in the next version, if it ever sees the light of day. It doesn't quite sort cars or locos, depending on trains spawning and de-spawning at their entry/exit points, but it does have a very effective and adaptive train management system (i.e. signalling AI). Unless you're running an American or similar shortline, the timetable is the bread and butter of any operation.