Wisdom /Guidance needed.

Thanks for all the great input guys. A lot to think about.
From what I'm reading in other posts, most people are not too keen on just driving for a miles without being actively loading/delivering something. I'm torn between a prototypical line since I have the transdem/hog map of the area and using Google Earth, or taking a few liberties to make it more fun.

What do you look for in a route to make you enjoy it. Realism? Complexity of tasks? or just "roll the top down and go for a cruise"
 
Dawg (I hope that's not rude?) I suggest splitting into 12. 25 miles completed is quicker to play on than 150miles. Even 25 miles takes ages.
baz
 
Good idea(s)...

Thank you for all the replies.
Even though I would have liked to keep this route as a single entity, Vern I see your point. I might have to split it in two. Never gave it a thought that the total size of the route could put a strain in some computers. I always thought it would be more what it is loading per frame that would be more important.

Miguel

Hello Miguel, the CSX-Western & Atlantic Railroad line from Chattanooga to Atlanta Howell Yard is 137.5-miles(221-km) long, with 137 curves.

I have begun the NS route of the same length, down to Bolton.

The W&A Line crosses the NS in Dalton and from Cartersville up to the Taylorsville branch it goes to Georgia Power Plant Bowen, so you do have an active industry if you include part or all of the K&A line.

Both lines would be wonderful because they have a lot of railroading going on and are rich in history.

I started with the NS, then decided to add the CSX...in sections. Maybe it will get up-loadable, maybe not...:sleep:
 
I actually started this 300 lb Gorilla as the W&A sub but then I said what the heck lets go to Savannah through Atlanta (hmm, maybe I should call it the "Sherman" sub).
 
No, do not do that...

:cool: That really spanks the baboon for Georgians. General William T. Sherman raped the State of Georgia in 1865, burning everything that was not a home or church. Georgians are "Civil War Challenged." No, we must never forget the UN-Civil War" but we try to not reference without reverence when ever possible.

I know of several people that have an idea for the Georgia Railroad on a DEM/Top map, under way, at least as far as Athens.

As far as research for the W&A Line, I can help you there in many ways because I lived in the Northwest Georgia Region down to Atlanta for ten-years.

Personal Message (PM) me.
 
Thanks for the offer and I might take you up on that. I'm actually just N.E of Atlanta and go trout fishing in the N Ga mountains quite a bit.
Right now the route is partially finished from Acworth to the Cartersville yard. I'm thinking of working northwards towards Chattanooga since it is more undeveloped land. Atlanta area is going to take a while (Tilford and Hulsey yards), and the myriad of subdivisions around the tracks is the 'burbs of ATL.
Right now is is therapeutical. Talk to me in a year or so.:p
 
Don't forget another issue with building a long route is testing and snagging. If your 300 mile route takes 6 or 7 hours to drive from one end to another, if you spot things on the first drive through then that's another 6 or 7 hours to check your fixes are okay. Then rinse and repeat for the opposite direction and any little spurs or branch lines and it becomes a massive task!
 
What I'm doing right now is building a few miles of track at a time, running trains multiple times over to check and also letting my "junior engineers" (kids) run the track to look for problems. Unfortunately my seven year old is a more anal retentive train nut that I am and won't leave me alone until I fix a problem he found.


I read that it is harder for the computer to load splines than copy/ paste. Why is that?
 
Sherman didn't rape Georgia, he spanked her for being naughty! BAD state! :p Curious, youse guys still have trees with rails wrapped around them? :hehe:

"I read that it is harder for the computer to load splines than copy/ paste. Why is that?"

Hadn't heard that, altho I did read one that claimed splines were hard on framerates - erroneous conclusion based on some bad splines that he deleted which improved his FPS, near as I can tell.

http://members.optusnet.com.au/~villaump/pevsoft.htm

Toolbox there, if I'm gonna make extensive use of any asset in the route, I check that asset in content mangler - open for edit, find the IM file and open that with PEV Trainz Mesh Viewer. Right click and select Mesh Data, bottom of that window gives you the poly count. Big factory building with 1000 polys okay, single tree with 6000 polys is probably not a good idea to use a lot of them.

All this discussion about route size got me thinking - I've been running tests over and over again so much I'm getting tired of looking at the same scenery. Fictional route based on the real world railroads in Chicago, worst trouble with that is the sheer volume for the era - back in the day, Western Avenue Interlocking averaged one train movement every 90 seconds. To top that off all the yards and industry spurs need loose consist freight cars for the player to switch around, trying to figure out Wulf 9's "scenery train" script to get around Trainz loading all the physics for all the cars on the route at once since I need at least 1000 freight cars sitting around, 3000 would be better. I seriously doubt I'll be expanding beyond the present boundaries, I just did some measurements and it's 10 miles high, 15 miles wide total, not a very big route.



chimet.jpg


Numbers are approximate total length for each section, my current freight traffic pattern for the AI loops around at an average 30mph and takes 2 hours 15 minutes to complete the run.
 
"I read that it is harder for the computer to load splines than copy/ paste. Why is that?"

Hadn't heard that, altho I did read one that claimed splines were hard on framerates - erroneous conclusion based on some bad splines that he deleted which improved his FPS, near as I can tell.

Splines are definitely a performance hit versus the same asset placed as objects. If you have no choice you gotta use splines, but if there is an object you can use instead, use it. Mostly this means trees and grass, although I gotta admit I use spline grass but that is purely from a visual preference, I have yet to find a grass 'clump' which doesn't turn into a 'lump' when the LOD kicks in. Performance-wise though the objects would be better.

Copy/Paste is tricky. If you use it - and on a big route you will use it a lot - you have to constantly copy from the same original location - don't copy from an area which was created by pasting. This is a hard one to quantify, but with years of copy/paste experience I can say with confidence that repeatedly copying from areas which have been pasted definitely degrades the visual quality and appears to degrade performance. The way i do it now is to create an area away from the route about four or five times the size of the area I want to copy. Place a nameable sign near it so you can use 'Find Object' to get back to it quickly. I always 'Copy' from that original 'man-made' area. Because it is much bigger than the size of the copy box I use the copied area varies a bit from one use to the next and combined with the 'rotate' tool helps to minimize the 'rubber stamp' effect.

If you want to see the degraded effect of repeatedly copying from the nearest convenient pasted area simply look at my Clovis2. Ground texturing started around Abo Canyon, compare the texture sharpness in that area with the areas west of Belen or out towards Vaughn. It took me a long time to wake up to what was happening, but it was a lesson well learned...

Andy ;)
 
Andy, thanks for the heads up on the copy/paste. Lesson learned.

Now, what is your secret for getting smooth track when using DEM/HOG. I'm just amazed at how smooth your curves and switches are. Do you use a template or free hand /eyeball them.
 
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"Splines are definitely a performance hit versus the same asset placed as objects"

Is that an impression, a theory, a verifiable fact, or one of them "everybody knows that" things that nobody ever bothered to actually test?
 
This got complicated quickly..

What I'm doing right now is building a few miles of track at a time, running trains multiple times over to check and also letting my "junior engineers" (kids) run the track to look for problems. Unfortunately my seven year old is a more anal retentive train nut that I am and won't leave me alone until I fix a problem he found.


I read that it is harder for the computer to load splines than copy/ paste. Why is that?

:cool: See, that's what I am saying...I am a Track & Signal Expert...I have the Track Charts right here on a music stand next to me to prove it. But if when you tire of wanting to prove your smarter than a Google-equipped 7-yr. old, go ahead...

There are timetables, dispatchers model boards in TrainDispatcher, maps, Earth, World-Wind, etc. for training your kid rather than being pistol-whipped there-by...step aside & follow closely when your rehab is finished...

You have to farm these out to whomsoever has the talents required to meet the challenge.

Just think of it like this...you can have any train, on any part of that division in just a few days, running signals & such. What else is there? Trees, roads, water bodies & people. There should be enough interests in the W&A Line to dig participants out, but if not...
 
With a train simulator you have all the room you need, but do you have the time to run trains all the way from Chicago to Omaha? Even if you managed to build and scenic the whole line, driving it would get boring rather quickly. That's why I always prefer fictional routes, rather than 50 miles of mainline with one industry spur then another 50 miles of mainline I can toss in however many yards and switching areas per mile I want. :cool: It's a game, not a training device, playability takes priority over reality any time reality gets in the way.

Agree wholeheartedly, this is a hobby, not a job. Make the railroad prototype size with prototype traffic and it would be too much of the real thing.

-Mike
 
So, leaving the rivet counters out of this, it sounds like I might be better off using the prototypical DEM as a base and making it more "fun" by adding industries here/there.
 
A 'best start' if your a copy-cat like myself...

:cool: I download 1/3-arcsec DEM's, then place Topo-maps for reference.

I do not use use fixed vertex track height.

I most regularly use track charts that include all the rr at about 1991 or later & firm it it according to what Diesel-electric locomotives can do, with YARN crossings.

I do have to smooth curves & realignments to modern standards, who wants a 20-mph RR?

I place trackmarks on places of interest for quick-finding using Find Object.

I place trackmarks at each control point, main or siding.

I got the experience as far as track & signals go, I use the home road's names on turnouts & signals with location & direction of movement that can be displayed by adding the Driver Command 'mc Display Custom HUD' rule.

I do not use Track Direction Markers due to the fact of lack of availability if you need the AI-Driver to navigate via a location....regular trackmarks do fine.

I do not recommend 'Static Cameras' because they take too long to clear the train to the next camera.

Lay the track consistently in the direction suiting the mile-posts. Move in one direction on the main, 'firm it in,' add sidings later...then signals, trackmarks, name everything correctly including multiple railroad line differentials.

A nice yard that can be worked from either direction never fowling the mainline.

Just a few words, inquire within...!:hehe:
 
"Splines are definitely a performance hit versus the same asset placed as objects"

Is that an impression, a theory, a verifiable fact, or one of them "everybody knows that" things that nobody ever bothered to actually test?

Find a tree spline where you can also find the trees as individual models. Dave Drake's splines are ideal. Create a new route, extend it to three or four boards in a straight line, run a track down the centre and cover the boards with a forest of splines. Now make another new route but use objects for the forest. Without turning into a totally anal retentive idiot try hard to make the two forests as similar as possible. Run the same loco, same camera view down both routes with FRAPS running. Higher fps - probably significantly higher - with objects: guaranteed!

Andy ;)
 
Andy...what is your secret for getting smooth track when using DEM/HOG. I'm just amazed at how smooth your curves and switches are. Do you use a template or free hand /eyeball them.

Curves are eyeballed and any credit for them goes to the Auran track geometry. Junctions are templates based on andi06's junction kit and any credit for yard ladders, crossovers etc is due to his work, not mine :)

Andy...
 
Hello Miguel.

Good luck with the Route building.

You will have many hours of sheer enjoyment to come – guaranteed!

I read that you tend to get bogged down with detail. It’s a common pitfall in Route building, but I’ve now realised the importance of getting the basic overall track and topographical work done, if only roughly, at an early stage.

Adding baseboards to the terrain on already completed work is entirely possible, but lining up and matching the undulations on a new adjacent flat board can be hard work. Hills and mountains can be particularly difficult.

Hoewever, I still get the urge to put down loads of detail.

You can have the best of both worlds though.

What I did was to build areas which I wanted to have in great detail, but they are fairly spread out across the roughly built terrain and quite tiny. Have too many and the game will stutter and possibly crash.

I’ve learnt to use textures for distant scenery, not loads of objects. This helps enormously with the smooth running.

The tiny areas, which I have packed with detail, are quite useful for developing modelling and composition skills. Many are set up especially for the trackside cameras.

When assembling these areas you can Quickdrive, see the results of your efforts and make any changes if things don’t look right. (Quick rant/plug: Auran/N3V why, oh why can’t we have a Surveyor viewport showing the camera view which will be seen in Driver so we don’t have to constantly jump back and forth with a forced save, thus losing the undo facility!) This request is already in the Suggestion Boxcar. Rant over.:o

Those “staged” camera scenes can also form the basis of some nice screenshots.

The other parts of the roughly assembled Route get attention when I get bored with the fiddly stuff. A break from any particular area of the route is usually very productive. Going back to earlier bits often inspires new ideas and a change for the better.

With regard to splines, I tend to not use them very often for vegetation. For fences, telegraph wires, hedges and anything else that runs long and straight-ish through the landscape – yes, splines are great.

With trees and grasses my preference is for objects. These can be placed exactly where required for good composition. Roads and tracks can also be made using an appropriate ground texture with grasses, shrubs and trees providing the edging. Adding several of just three or four types of selected foliage objects can work well and don’t seem to affect performance.

Interesting thread everyone. It’s great to see how others approach their work and nice to have the opportunity to learn more ideas and techniques.

Cheers
Casper
:)
 
Miguel,

I enjoy building a route historically. I am still working on the Ft Dodge Des Moines & Southern. I started out with the first 2-1/2 miles of mainline track they started with as the Boone Valley Coal & Railway company to service three coal mines inthe Des Moines River valley west of Boone, Iowa. I now have 103 miles of mainline track laid and the railroad has undergone its fourth name change. It will eventually have 86 miles of mainline track with 7 different branch lines. It will run under steam, wire and desiel and eventually become a short tourest railroad running a Chinese steam engine. I enjoy doing the historical research and making a route that is as acurate as possible in as many details as I can find.

I start with the DEM maps made for me by a fellow Trainzer. It is broken up into workable pieces and as the railroad grew, I add the appropriate DEM maps. I start with laying track. Then I add track side textures and structures. Then I add scenery farther away from the track. I do not go more than one square from the track. On this railroad and in this era, there is a town every 4 - 6 miles, so there are no long stretches of boring track. There are farms, creeks and rivers, all of which I include.

Every railroad it crosses or has an interchange with is included. These foreign roads are portal fed and have trains running as scheduled for the era based on the appropriate Official Guide.

I too can be a bit obsessive on the details, but then that is what makes this so satifying. I started this route in 2006 using Trainz2006. Here it is 5 yeras later and I am still enjoying creating on this route. It is not the only route I work on, but it has been a constant choice over the past 5 years.
 
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