why isnt trainz 12 on steam?

[RRSignal]

Well, that "professional help" remark is a little strong...from what I know, Phil's a great guy and very knowledgeable too.

But, what people should recognize is that there's a big difference between digital downloads and Steam. Or, more accurately, Digital Rights Management (DRM a.k.a. copy protection.) Digital download is a generic term for a method of delivering content - games and sims, movies, TV, etc. DRM, on the other hand, is a deliberate handicapping of said content, ostensibly as "copy protection" but also because such mechanisms give producers the ability to change the rules midstream or to force users to upgrade or buy new product and to deactivate perfect good, usable stuff (see MSN, Yahoo, etc.) In the case of Steam, you must have an always-on internet connection just to use your product. Other mechanisms can include "Product Activation" schemes. Yet others have "license keys" which must be present and which are tied to a specific piece of hardware. All are designed to screw the consumer in the long run, and bigger and healthier companies than Steam have done that plenty of times. I think enough people have testified upthread how badly Steam and their DRM has screwed them.

Physical content can be DRMed too, like DVDs and Blu-Ray. I fully agree that digital downloads are the future, but that doesn't mean they have to incorporate DRM. The downloadable music industry has largely turned away from DRM. DRM-free streaming video is gaining popularity as well; even Auran/N3V, for all the criticism they get and may deserve, have done a pretty good job at providing DRM-free digital downloads like Trainz and addons.

I hope that continues. There are two railsims I won't touch because they incorporate some form of DRM, and two flightsims I wouldn't have bought or accepted as gifts had I known they had it.

And, so that I don't violate the CoC, I'll leave it at that...

 

[CaptEngland]

Scaremongering!

All.

What a load of crap!

I have used steam no end of times and works better than some CD/DVD based products!

As for not using stuff off line, Yes, you can do that. You can also back up files to disc.

I notice a lot of flack Valve get comes from the U.S.A. users. Is there something that make you guys paranoid about modern ways of the world?:hehe:

As for Hi-Ballers "we have noticed illegal activity on your account and have therefore closed it", why did you not theaten them with a court order. If they tried that here in the U.K. they would end up in court and their service here would end as that is illegal in consumer law. Also, it would be very dodgy on the E.U. laws of invasion of privacy (it would mean that they have broken data protection laws themselves to scan your P.C. without a court order).

As for TS12, I do agree that the best bet is to get it from N3V themselves as it cut's out the middle man.

Regards
CaptEngland

P.S. OverlordNZ. It's YOU that needs to seek `professional help` in the way you speak to people. You seem to have serious issues with relating to people who question your opinions. Still, if I'm on your ignore list then you wont see this post. Good-day. :wave::mop:

 

[Beattie]

Oh boy steam is like comparing diesels to steam engines

:mop: I still think everything going virtual is not good. the one reason I got the digital copy because when I got the boxed it took 3 weeks to deliver after buying and I wanted it fast. I still like keeping cds instead of downloading songs because you can't transfer your songs to other things were cds let you download them to anything with in the copy rights. I still hate steam and after the amounts of problems why get it when a lot I mean like most people that get steam have problems, why risk it that yours might get problems to.

The mopping side of Beattie:mop:

 

[Euphod]

Is there something that make you guys paranoid about modern ways of the world?

Don't worry, the way things are going here we'll be a backwater third world country inside of ten years!:hehe:

 

[HiBaller]

...
As for Hi-Ballers "we have noticed illegal activity on your account and have therefore closed it", why did you not theaten them with a court order. If they tried that here in the U.K. they would end up in court and their service here would end as that is illegal in consumer law. Also, it would be very dodgy on the E.U. laws of invasion of privacy (it would mean that they have broken data protection laws themselves to scan your P.C. without a court order).
...

Court orders for Internet related items have NEVER worked. When Steam closed my account they did it in such a way that I had no recourse for complaint or adjustment. They simply ignored me to death. Since the game was in the bargain bin at only $5, I chose to simply ignore them and tossed the disc. Over the years, I've tossed much more expensive crud in the trash.

I suspect that they canceled my account because I wrote a specific program that would not allow Steam to scan my computer. Their 'reason' was simply bogus; or reflected their displeasure at my action.

Bill

 

[CaptEngland]

Court orders for Internet related items have NEVER worked. When Steam closed my account they did it in such a way that I had no recourse for complaint or adjustment. They simply ignored me to death. Since the game was in the bargain bin at only $5, I chose to simply ignore them and tossed the disc. Over the years, I've tossed much more expensive crud in the trash.

I suspect that they canceled my account because I wrote a specific program that would not allow Steam to scan my computer. Their 'reason' was simply bogus; or reflected their displeasure at my action.

Bill

That's one good thing about the UK/EU. They can not get away with that kind of thing over here. Sorry to hear about your problems with Steam. I do think that the Steam we have in the UK/EU is run differently to the USA version as a lot of stuff you guys can get is different to what we can get. I know that `Home Front` is not allowed for sale in the UK on steam due to re-sale reasons. Maybe there is something more to this IMHO! Also you seem to get different offers compared to us poor cousins across the pond.

@Euphod
The UK has been a back water, third rate country for over 70 years now. Why do you think we still keep the Royals? :hehe:

I would just like to say that I'm not trying to be horrible to our US friends. At the end of the day, At least we can back each other up when the poo hit's the fan in the world (before anyone mentions Nam, we did try to help but the U.S. did not want to follow our advice about the Far East and how to stop a Commie up-rising (Google the Malayan Emergency for details)).

At least you guy's have good dental work. :hehe:
Regards

 

[wholbr]

All.

What a load of crap!

I have used steam no end of times and works better than some CD/DVD based products!

As for not using stuff off line, Yes, you can do that. You can also back up files to disc.

I notice a lot of flack Valve get comes from the U.S.A. users. Is there something that make you guys paranoid about modern ways of the world?

Hi everybody.
I totally agree with you there CaptEnglad. I have also used steam for installing RW2 and have purchased a considerable amount of payware for that simulator and have had no problems at all with steams very efficient way of doing things.

As for statements by some members the likes of “steam may go bankrupt and you would not be able to access your game at all” well that could be said of any private or stock exchange listed company. As I seem to recall many millions where affected when two American mortgage companies (I think it was Fannie May and Friday February or names something like that) went bust and triggered the whole world banking and financial crisis with many people losing much more than a game or two. However that is the capitalist system we live under and I do not see that changing in the near future

As for online games and downloads, well the world has moved inevitably towards that method of trading over the past decade. I now hold all my important documents on Google it saves having to carry heavy files around with me or even in some cases these days having and carry a laptop as I purchased a Samsung galaxy tablet computer. All I have to do these days is access my account on Google and all the documents and information I could wish for are at hand for any meeting. That is the way it is done these days right throughout business.

We live in a capitalist world where it is the survival of the fittest. Those who move with the times survive, those who stay with the old practices succumb as Auran did. NV3 and Steam are moving with the times and there are a considerable number of members on this forum who need to do the same.

I am posting this from a train on my way back from Carlisle to Somerset (that's progress). I have not had much time in recent weeks for Trainz or this forum. That said, I was only thinking the other day while on another real-life rail journey that I have not missed it much. On reading threads like this one I can understand why.


Bill

 

[RRSignal]

You're right, perfectly healthy companies can shut off their customer's products permanently, like Microsoft, Amazon and Walmart did.

It's far better to avoid products that allow that functionality to begin with. Hence, avoid Steam.

 

[wholbr]

Hi Again RRSignal And Everybody

You're right, perfectly healthy companies can shut off their customer's products permanently, like Microsoft, Amazon and Walmart did.

It's far better to avoid products that allow that functionality to begin with. Hence, avoid Steam.

Yes you can avoid steam and all other download product. You can order by the good old-fashioned mail service and they may not deliver it, deliver it to the wrong address or as happened with me a few days ago simply lose it.

However, most likely you will receive it but your CD could get scratched or damaged in another way. Or (heaven forbid) your house could burn down and the you lose everything, your computer, all your CDs, insurance policies, house ownership documents etc.

Whichever method you choose there are always risks. However, ordering and retaining documents and downloads online means to say that should something as the above happen, all you have to do is find another computer, plug it in and everything can be retrieved. That is progress

It is a balance of risk and I would suggest that the online risks are less than retaining physical documents or CDs etc.
Bill

 

[sparky15]

Bill,
There are more hackers sitting around trying to get my important documents online than there are arsonists waiting to burn down my house.

I have no problem with digital distribution at all. It's the Steam client I have no use for. If Auran went belly up, we would all be on a third party site discussing milking out TRS2006. Valve goes under OR finds something it doesn't like and closes your account, you have nothing. It's not the distribution, it's the client.

To each their own. I prefer a disc or online distribution now the local library has high speed internet access. I will not use a third party client to be able to run my purchase. I feel there is no need for it. If something happens, NV3 has my order info if I buy a digital download. Re-download it and up and running again if needed or have a back up stored somewhere.

As far as online risks, hear about that little Sony flap going on right now?

Dave......

 

[wholbr]

Hi Sparky & Rsignal
Good debate,but cannot but cannot give reply now as the train is just pulling into Bristol Temple Mead's where the wife is picking me up.

It's been a long journey and I am going to have a beer or two on the remainder of the journey back to Somerset.

Bill

NB:- May reply from the pub if the wife will let me:hehe:

 

[RRSignal]

Steam != direct download
DRM != direct download

I don't get it. Why do some people still equate Steam with downloadable content? Why are people still confusing the concepts of copy-protection a.k.a. DRM and game downloads? They are not the same thing. As I stated earlier, Steam, DRM, and internet download of content are totally different concepts. They are as different as, say, cars and plastic; your car may use plastic in places (on the dash, perhaps) but so do lots of other things and one can exist without the other. As I stated earlier, nobody is talking about whether or not the product should or should not be delivered via download. Perhaps here's another way to illustrate it.

Steam offers products via internet download.

Auran offers products via internet download.

Steam adds onerous, handicapping COPY PROTECTION in order to use said product!

Auran does not.

Therefore, a company can offer internet downloads WITHOUT ONEROUS, PROBLEM-CAUSING COPY PROTECTION as Auran has demonstrated quite well.

Read more:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_rights_management
http://www.defectivebydesign.org/what_is_drm
http://www.drmwatch.com/
http://money.mvps.org/faq/article/635.aspx*
http://www.eff.org/pages/customer-always-wrong-users-guide-drm-online-music
http://arstechnica.com/old/content/...ahoo-music-going-dark-taking-keys-with-it.ars

 

[TheStoon]

Bill,
Valve goes under OR finds something it doesn't like and closes your account, you have nothing. It's not the distribution, it's the client.

Dave......

Thats not strictly true. All you lose is access to the Steam network. You'd be unable to buy any new games, and be unable to use any Multiplayer functionality that uses SteamPlay. You'd also lose access to the automatic patching. However any games you have bought can be played in offline mode if you are unable to connect to the Steam network for ANY reason.

 

[sawyer811]

amen to that...as much as i'd like to buy the game and 2-3 hours later be running it, I'd much rather have the hard copy just in case something goes wrong. I had TRS2006 crash on me twice, and TS2009 on me once, and each time, had i just had the digital download, I'd have been up a branchline with a snapped crosshead guide. The boxed copy is my fail-safe, so, snail mail for me!

 

[sparky15]

Thats not strictly true. All you lose is access to the Steam network. You'd be unable to buy any new games, and be unable to use any Multiplayer functionality that uses SteamPlay. You'd also lose access to the automatic patching. However any games you have bought can be played in offline mode if you are unable to connect to the Steam network for ANY reason.

Really? How do you reload the game and activate it without the Steam client? Say, a hard drive failure. I thought about RW when it came out on disc. How would I load and run that program without the Steam client?

Dave.....

And Bill, if you happen to stumble into a Murphey's Irish Stout not doing anything..........

 

[wholbr]

hi Sparky And Everybody.

Bill, if you happen to stumble into a Murphey's Irish Stout not doing anything..........

Sparky, I am in the Failand Inn (see Google maps). Wife gone up to the bar to get me a Contreu and Brandy, lovely. They do not sell Murphy's Irish Stout or I would have one on your behalf.

I love this galaxy tab, you can communicate with anybody from anywhere via G3. Will post my replys to everyone in the morning as it is now 11:30 PM here in Somerset.

Nice to be home after being away for two days.

Bill

 

[OverlordNZ]

Thats not strictly true. All you lose is access to the Steam network. You'd be unable to buy any new games, and be unable to use any Multiplayer functionality that uses SteamPlay. You'd also lose access to the automatic patching. However any games you have bought can be played in offline mode if you are unable to connect to the Steam network for ANY reason.

Sorry to disagree, both the games I bought from Steam (Farm Simulator 2011 and Sim City 4) DO NOT RUN unless there is a connection to Steam..
(its states you have to log in first before going to 'off-line' mode, it won't even let you re-install them without Steam installed and running) If I would have know Steam was going to 'own' MY games I paid money for I never would have gone near the ripoff company.

Please say well away from these con-artists Auran/3D

 

[sparky15]

I have friends who basically use nothing but Steam for their games. They love it. I think it's a great promotion for programs like Trainz which would probably never get the attention anywhere else. I see no need to avoid it, but, give the option of not needing Steam to purchase and use the program.
Not starting a RW war, I would have bought it if it came outside of the need to use Steam. I guess I'm weird in that I like all train simulators and use them. I have a train "sim" from Abracadata that is a fun break every now and then. Steam cost RW at least one sale, me.
I hope NV3 does put TS12 on Steam for those who like it and keep a separate version for those who don't. The Steam client I don't care for and think they are trying to make a profit as the middle man for PC gaming. A cut off the top for distribution without a dog in the fight. They're selling bandwith, advertising and DRM as far as I can tell.
As long as we have a choice, no problem.

Dave........

 

[RRSignal]

Actually, I would walk away from Trainz if Auran started requiring activation or an internet tether, whether through Steam or their own. Earlier today, I refused to install a free addon for FS2004 because it required internet "activation" in order to install it.

Putting aside the shadiness of requiring activation for a free product, it wasn't worth what I paid for it. Why, then, should I pay actual MONEY for that?

 

[Robertd81]

Steam Issues...

It's amazing how 'steamed up' people can get when discussing Steam :hehe: , I said in a previous post that I found them very silent in terms of customer support and so on, thinking about it I really did have issues on a practical level with the Steam client as well. Primarily that my CPU used to run at 100% running only the client/steam thingy, which had the obvious effect of causing serious lags in my game (Empire: Total War); secondly, Steam had a nasty habit of forgetting my username and password from time to time, making off-line play impossible for me when on the move. In just this gamers opinion, it adds just one too many layers of troubleshooting to what can already be frustrating experiences for modders and gamers alike. You should see the ranting about it all still going on over at the forums on totalwar.org. No doubt there's been much improvement to the system since I last had to wrestle with it, but sometimes if things aren't broke they simply shouldn't be fixed. Auran's been doing a great job I feel giving us the options for an actual disc or digital download, I hope that continues for a long time to come.