Why a Red above Blank Signal?

[KonstantinMMRR]

I have been driving the mojave Subdivision. Sometimes, there will be a red signal, with a non-lit signal below it. I have not figured out what this means, but I have learned to treat it as a green signal, and keep on going. What does this really mean?

I would think in the real world, if a train comes across a signal that is not lit, then the signal must be treated as red (possibly the light bulb burned out).

Thank you
Dean

 

[JCitron]

I have been driving the mojave Subdivision. Sometimes, there will be a red signal, with a non-lit signal below it. I have not figured out what this means, but I have learned to treat it as a green signal, and keep on going. What does this really mean?

I would think in the real world, if a train comes across a signal that is not lit, then the signal must be treated as red (possibly the light bulb burned out).

Thank you
Dean

Dean,

There are various rules regarding signals. Back in the East are the NORAC rules. There is another system used in the West. Here is a link that looks to be pretty interesting regarding this stuff.

http://www.railway-technical.com/US-sig.shtml

John

 

[fran1]

So according to ATSF aspects the op's been going through a stop signal.
Or under SP and UP aspects a stop and proceed.
Interesting article though.

 

[norfolksouthern37]

it all depends on where you are seeing this. since its a red signal over a non lit head, i would assume it is a distant signal whose block is occupied.

also, i went to that railway technical page, and it is very apparent just from reading that they do not understand US signalling. it seems to be based on assumption of how things work.

as for the signal you are seeing, check http://www.lundsten.dk/us_signaling/aspects_sp1996/index.html

i patterned the signals in the game to follow what i had observed of those signal types on the real mojave subdivision. the distant signal will display information on the next signal until it is passed, at which point it will disable the lower head and display the top one as red. and yes, a non-lit head is considered red.

 

[djt]

Back in the East are the NORAC rules. There is another system used in the West.

Back in the East we have railroads operating under NORAC, CSXT, NS and GCOR rules. You also have some railroads (under NORAC/CSXT) using a speed signaling system and others (GCOR/NS) using what is considered a route/directional based signal system.


Most railroads in the western US operate under GCOR operating rules usually slightly modified for their particular operation.

So according to ATSF aspects the op's been going through a stop signal.
Or under SP and UP aspects a stop and proceed.

That depends on whether the signal has a number plate/”G”-“P” marker (as examples) which would identify them as being an intermediate/[FONT=&quot]automatic[/FONT] signal ([FONT=&quot]stop and proceed/restricted proceed depending on the operating rules[/FONT]) or without a plate, an absolute (control point/interlocking) signal which if displaying all red is a stop indication.

 

[KonstantinMMRR]

It is looking as though, if I want to understand this signal aspect, I need to pay attention to where they are located, and if they have a "G" or something under them.

 

[djt]

[FONT=&quot]It is looking as though, if I want to understand this signal aspect, I need to pay attention to where they are located, and if they have a "G" or something under them.[/FONT]

I guess the first thing to do if you want to understand the signal aspects/indications is to figure out if the route you’re looking at is accurately simulating the signal system to begin with.



If we’re going back to the mid 1990’s or earlier (before Union Pacific got a hold of SP) on the Mojave Sub it was still owned by Southern Pacific with ATSF having trackage rights over a portion of it.

Here are a couple of SP signal charts (I’m sure with a little research you can find others) -

http://www.lundsten.dk/us_signaling/aspects_sp1996/index.html

http://www.railroadsignals.us/rulebooks/sp98/index.htm


Here is GCOR rule book from the 1990’s, you might want to take a look through that (the section on CTC in particular) -

http://www.sdrm.org/faqs/rulebook/title.html

You’ll also need to take a look at the TT/SI book for this sub division also.

 

[norfolksouthern37]

he is talking about the mojave sub in TS12. i designed the signals to work just like the real ones do.

 

[djt]

he is talking about the mojave sub in TS12. i designed the signals to work just like the real ones do.

So now he’s got the actual signal charts and operating rule book to go along with it, now he just needs the TT/SI and track charts, lol.

 

[Deano5]

So did the OP drive through a "Stop" signal or not?
I always hover the mouse pointer over the signal if I'm not sure to get the text block to tell me. They are a tad confusing. :wave:

 

[norfolksouthern37]

since its on a distant intermediate signal its a stop and proceed indication.

 

[djt]

So did the OP drive through a "Stop" signal or not?
I always hover the mouse pointer over the signal if I'm not sure to get the text block to tell me. They are a tad confusing.

Did the signal have a number/”G” plate on it, was it an intermediate/automatic signal? If so then it’s a Stop and Proceed or a Restricting.

If the signal doesn’t have a number/”G” plate on it and the signal is displaying all red then it is a STOP indication.


By the way a Distant Signal is usually found as an example approaching CTC territory from TWC, the signal does not convey block condition information. In other words a Distant Signal would not be placed in the middle of CTC territory in the real world.

Here is the definition of a Distant Signal taken right from the GCOR rule book –

Distant Signal:

A fixed signal outside a block system that governs the approach to a block signal, interlocking signal, or switch point indicator. A distant signal does not indicate conditions that affect track use between the distant signal and block or interlocking signals or between the distant signal and switch point indicator. A distant signal is identified by a D.

 

[norfolksouthern37]

well you can argue definitions however you want, the two headed intermediate signals approaching those before the sidings are usually referred to as distant signals to that c.p. i think the point is, they work like the real ones and mean stop and proceed. i think there are only a few on there with a G plate.

 

[djt]

well you can argue definitions however you want, the two headed intermediate signals approaching those before the sidings are usually referred to as distant signals to that c.p. i think the point is

There’s no reason to argue when the operating rules for that territory clearly define what a Distant Signal is.


From your description of the signal (does it have a number plate?) it would be considered an automatic/intermediate (or in this case the last automatic/intermediate before the control point) which already mentioned above would give a Stop and Proceed indication depending on block condition.

 

[norfolksouthern37]

yes of course, but that still doesn't stop them from being referenced that way.

i know exactly what signals he is talking about, i made all of them. they do have number plates and they are the last intermediates to cp. there is no need to get in to semantics over it. ill call them lollypops or cherry-sticks if i want to.

 

[djt]

yes of course, but that still doesn't stop them from being referenced that way.

I guess the question is referenced by whom? That’s what the glossary of terms is for in the back of the operating rule book. Only those terms are recognized/taught, railroad slang is not.

If you take a look at the difference between an intermediate/automatic signal (which does convey information about block condition) and a Distant signal (which does not convey information about the condition of the block) you can clearly see why it would be a major issue in the real world with misidentifying them.

 

[RRSignal]

yes of course, but that still doesn't stop them from being referenced that way.

i know exactly what signals he is talking about, i made all of them. they do have number plates and they are the last intermediates to cp. there is no need to get in to semantics over it. ill call them lollypops or cherry-sticks if i want to.

You're not wrong. NORAC describes a Distant Signal as:

DISTANT SIGNAL: A fixed signal used to govern the approach of a train to a home signal.

http://thebecketts.com/images/NORAC 8th Edition NJT.pdf

I don't mind accuracy in terminology but I deal with loose definitions all the time. I recently had somebody in some forum try to tell me that a computer virus cannot by definition affect Macs because only Windows supports the EXE file format.

Unfortunately, this term is so broad in common use (and even among experts) I don't really try splitting hairs anymore. [/tangent]

 

[djt]

You're not wrong. NORAC describes a Distant Signal as:

Too bad the Mojave Sub doesn’t operate under NORAC operating rules.


Does the description of a Distant Signal in the NORAC Terminology, Definitions, and Authorized Abbreviations book say that it conveys information about block condition?


In addition take a look at either the signal chart section of the NORAC book you posted a link to or this link -

http://modernrailroading.com/DigitalLibrary/Norac/signalaspectsandindications.htm

What is the name of a signal that displays an all red aspect displayed with a number plate?

Rule 291 STOP AND PROCEED, I don’t see any reference to a distant signal in the name or indication.

 

[norfolksouthern37]

which is why i said it doesnt even matter at this point. the signals on mojave work as do or did the real ones, whether you call them snowballs or catswagels.

 

[djt]

the signals on mojave work as do or did the real ones, whether you call them snowballs or catswagels.

They wouldn’t though if you stuck a realistically functioning Distant signal in the middle of that ABS/CTC, lol.