Who has sharp eyes

Eboy87 Beat me to it, but yes, the top right gauge is almost certainly an Hours Clock. Though it might not necissarily be the Engine. It probably is, Im guessing this is the Hood Side of the cab? In which case it almost certainly is. A Frame/Locomotive Hours gauge if it were to exist I would think would be in amongst the control stand somewhere. Further, where it seems to be unlabeled, it would make a certain amount of sense. At one time, there was this policy that all commercial Diesel Engines had to have an Hours gauge for the engine, though this practice seems to be dying out if Truck/Bus Cabs are anything to go by....

Falcus
 
In the colder climates, locomotives are usually left idling to keep the fuel lines and engine block warm. Diesel fuel is thick and starting a cold engine can be very difficult so rather than struggle with the startup, the crew will leave the engine running. Some locomotives have an engine warmer which is powered via an electric outlet. This keeps the engine block warm and allows the engine to be turned off, but warm an toasty and ready to be started.

Back to the original topic, I was too late to the show... The upper right dial though appears to be some kind of odometer. The other dials look just as you've pointed out, Dave.

John

Many years ago, when I was running NW-2s and SW7/9s at the steel mill, we'd let them idle for days on end during the winter months. Oil and water could be checked with them running, and they were refueled every three days without shutting down too. Unless they were indoors, for major service, they were to be left running, or face disciplinary action from management.
 
Many years ago, when I was running NW-2s and SW7/9s at the steel mill, we'd let them idle for days on end during the winter months. Oil and water could be checked with them running, and they were refueled every three days without shutting down too. Unless they were indoors, for major service, they were to be left running, or face disciplinary action from management.

This is what I remember hearing down at the Lawrence, MA yards. During the cold weather, the B&M and later Guilford would leave their Geeps and switchers (then they used SW9s) idling to keep them from freezing over. They did this for a bit up in Manchester, NH and the NIMBYs complained about the engine noise. The once extensive Manchester yard is now down to two tracks and a siding with condos built along the river not far away. Honestly, this kind of thing never bothered me. What annoys me more is loud music. The hum and rattle of a diesel or another motor is almost soothing.
 
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@JCitron, don't forget to add engine coolant into reasons why the locomotive is left idling. 300+ gallons of frozen water will easily destroy the block. Upper right gauge is an engine hours counter (I assume its for the engine, it was in all the trucks I've driven that had one).

Sidebar: does anyone know what the control air is for? I think I read somewhere that some early locomotives used air for MU control, but that information is long gone in my head. Of course, I suppose we need to know the locomotive type before that can be answered.

If I remember correctly the control air is to set the amount of vacuum that is created in the train pipe for brake control via the HS4 control valve and VA1B valve , usually 19" or 20". Starting to forget these things , been on pension for a while...:)
 
Pardon my ignorance but I need to ask this, is there really a need these days (under most circumstances where a block heater or similar technology is available) to leave large machines idling other than sheer crew laziness?

These aren't Toyota pickup trucks or 200hp outboard motors, they are huge guzzlers with displacement well over a hundred liters. According to some of you it seems crews like to leave engines on all winter. (I mean come on, the engines would burn through tankfuls of fuel and require in-place refueling just sitting in the yard.) While I'm no tree-hugger and love a smokin' ALCO just as much as the next railfan, does it not occur to some of you how much fuel is wasted on such an outdated practice? Fuel that could've been used to power a stacktrain for another 50 miles or heat a poor man's home for 10 winters, whatever.

Enlighten me please.
 
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Back in the 1960's they would leave them on for 30 days at a time. Fuel was $0.03US a gallon and the start up time was 20min.
 
Pardon my ignorance but I need to ask this, is there really a need these days (under most circumstances where a block heater or similar technology is available) to leave large machines idling other than sheer crew laziness?

These aren't Toyota pickup trucks or 200hp outboard motors, they are huge guzzlers with displacement well over a hundred liters. According to some of you it seems crews like to leave engines on all winter. (I mean come on, the engines would burn through tankfuls of fuel and require in-place refueling just sitting in the yard.) While I'm no tree-hugger and love a smokin' ALCO just as much as the next railfan, does it not occur to some of you how much fuel is wasted on such an outdated practice? Fuel that could've been used to power a stacktrain for another 50 miles or heat a poor man's home for 10 winters, whatever.

Enlighten me please.

I think it is all about how dedicated and disciplined the particular RR's management and staff are.
I have worked and visited quite a few countries RR's and some have the attitude of hurry up and wait...shunters taking their time, things not planned properly, some of the neighbouring countries around South Africa just simply have no rush at all and nothing happens quickly, if the hooter goes for lunch or tea, things get dropped right there and you can stand on your head and whistle thru anywhere , nothing happens in a hurry..
 
Pardon my ignorance but I need to ask this, is there really a need these days (under most circumstances where a block heater or similar technology is available) to leave large machines idling other than sheer crew laziness?

These aren't Toyota pickup trucks or 200hp outboard motors, they are huge guzzlers with displacement well over a hundred liters. According to some of you it seems crews like to leave engines on all winter. (I mean come on, the engines would burn through tankfuls of fuel and require in-place refueling just sitting in the yard.) While I'm no tree-hugger and love a smokin' ALCO just as much as the next railfan, does it not occur to some of you how much fuel is wasted on such an outdated practice? Fuel that could've been used to power a stacktrain for another 50 miles or heat a poor man's home for 10 winters, whatever.

Enlighten me please.

No there isn't really a need to do that these days or any other but I dont think I saw anyone saying they would idle all winter, surely they would have some work in between. If a block heater is not used for a stationary locomotive without a train then it has to be started at intervals to maintain the equipment. A great amount of modern locomotives have automatic start and stop for their engines. Even so, idling the locomotive may be the only option in some circumstances, this typically will burn about 4-8 gallons of fuel per hour. usually in designated locomotive parking areas there is some provision for keeping the engine warm.
 
This is what I remember hearing down at the Lawrence, MA yards. During the cold weather, the B&M and later Guilford would leave their Geeps and switchers (then they used SW9s) idling to keep them from freezing over. They did this for a bit up in Manchester, NH and the NIMBYs complained about the engine noise. The once extensive Manchester yard is now down to two tracks and a siding with condos built along the river not far away. Honestly, this kind of thing never bothered me. What annoys me more is loud music. The hum and rattle of a diesel or another motor is almost soothing.

Some of the best sleep of my life, was sitting in the seat of an old, noisy, vibrating NW2. Heat on full blast and 2-way radio to my ear...usually took several calls from dispatch to wake me up...lolz.

Pardon my ignorance but I need to ask this, is there really a need these days (under most circumstances where a block heater or similar technology is available) to leave large machines idling other than sheer crew laziness?

These aren't Toyota pickup trucks or 200hp outboard motors, they are huge guzzlers with displacement well over a hundred liters. According to some of you it seems crews like to leave engines on all winter. (I mean come on, the engines would burn through tankfuls of fuel and require in-place refueling just sitting in the yard.) While I'm no tree-hugger and love a smokin' ALCO just as much as the next railfan, does it not occur to some of you how much fuel is wasted on such an outdated practice? Fuel that could've been used to power a stacktrain for another 50 miles or heat a poor man's home for 10 winters, whatever.

Enlighten me please.

In the case I gave as example, we're talking about Engines built in the 1940's during 1995-97, in a steel mill setting, were they must be ready to move at a moments notice. The majority of work I did was moving scrap metal from scrap yard to melt shop, and usually, I was active for 3 to 5 hours of each 8 hour shift. There were times though, when I would be dispatched to work a different part of the mill, where I was on-call, so to speak, and in an 8 hour shift, I was never called to duty. I would run 5 minutes across the mill and sit for 7 hours 50 minutes, then 5 minutes back at end of shift...to me, that was considered "idling" for a whole day. Maybe not in the strictest sense, but 5 minutes every 8 hours is certainly not "in-use" by too many folks' standards.

As for fueling, we had a truck come in every thee days, regardless of how full or empty an engine was, it got topped off. Truck would pull up to where ever we were.
--As for economics, we left them running so that when we needed them, they were ready. A cold loco that wouldn't start could have shut down the melt shop, costing tens-of-thousands of dollars in delays, so a few thousand dollars in fuel cost was easily justified as "cost of doing business".

I will forgive it, (your ignorance), because you simply do not know, but it was never done for "Crew laziness", it was done for the good of the machine, and the need to have reliable motive power at the ready, by the COMPANY. Yes, we left them running ALL winter, but as Justin pointed out, they were not idling all winter. we did use them, as needed, throughout that time. While it was not common to leave them idling un-used for days at a time, it did happen when only 2 of the 3 engines were needed during low volume periods. I recall once having a spare sw9 sitting for nearly a full week, un-used, and idling, sometime in March of '96, but it was never up to the "crew", it was company policy.

As Whitepass says, (even in 1996-97), it was not uncommon to take 20 minutes to start an old 1940's Locomotive, even in spring or fall.
 
Granted, these are very old engines that may not have block heaters, but is the practice still used on modern diesels which have such tech built-in and can start in minutes? Though if you ask me, burning thousands of dollars of fuel to save 20 minutes in startup time (when it's not winter) still sounds very wasteful to me.

At any rate, good read and thanks for the insight dude.
 
Granted, these are very old engines that may not have block heaters, but is the practice still used on modern diesels which have such tech built-in and can start in minutes? Though if you ask me, burning thousands of dollars of fuel to save 20 minutes in startup time (when it's not winter) still sounds very wasteful to me.

At any rate, good read and thanks for the insight dude.

I can't speak for the specific Policies, however up here I have litterally seen BNSF leave Strings of GEVOs running for hours, presumably days (I'll see the same units sitting on one of three tracks that I rather think of as "Ready Tracks", running every time I see them over several days). They do have Fuel Trucks come out and refuel them from time to time. I believe the reason for this is that the specific area I see this is a locomotive Change point, and they wait for whatever train to come in so they can throw new power on it, but /shrug.

I have also seen them shut down Power on a recently arrived train, particularly Oil Hauls and Mixed Goods, and let them sit attached to their trains for up to a week before. Generally these trains will get new power before they leave, but not always, and this can be up to a week and a half. I have also seen them start them up (Yes, in minutes), and sit and Idle until I finish work and they're still sitting there. Presumably they leave these running any time they're waiting to make a move with them, but /shrug. There are videos of people on youtube climbing into cabs of "Unattended" running locomotives, and I have full confidence I could do something like that as well, though I never will.

Kingconrail I think makes the pertinent point here.... Companies are for profit. Their policies are as often as not the result of a pencil pusher balancing numbers in a book. Apparently the cost of Fuel still does not warrant shutting down locomotives for anything short of certain knowledge of a lack of need. Railroads are still being made to cut their "Carbon Footprint" which translates to less fuel use in a variety of ways though (Even though they still use less fuel then all the trucks in the U.S....).

I would also mention to though that, though I'm not a Diesel Mechanic, what I do know about engines and wear and tear, is that it usually makes more sense to leave something running then not. Even modern stuff. Constant Heating and Cooling will wear parts faster then years of constant use will, and they're already being used as often as they can reasonably be expected to. Certain types of materials, notably in Gaskets (which are still in use for any number of reasons in other areas), just give out faster. It may very well be cheaper for the company to run diesels ad nauseum then to do Engine Rebuilds every couple years for any unit that goes through X# of Starts. Don't even get me started on Turbo Chargers, and though I only really know anything about smaller Automotive ones, and a little about smaller Diesel ones (7 Liter engines and below), alot of these are still known to not deal with heating and cooling overly well (Though much better then models from earlier decades). And GEVO's tend to have at least 2 of these IIRC.... Moisture accumulating in a cold engine is yet another issue.... The possible reasons could go on and on, and though some of what I've listed here may not be applicable, I'm sure some of it is.....

Anyway, I'm sure others will have more first hand knowledge to add, the reason I posted is to demonstrate that theres alot that goes into this beyond just "Less fuel = good", which I would also submit that I tend to agree with in General Practice.
Falcus
 
Hi everybody.
Falcus, there is no real reason why modern diesel engines should not be shut down immediately on the power units coming to a physical halt. The exception to the foregoing would be with power units undertaking shunting operations in both rail and road transport yards where the air compressors need to be running continuously to charge the air reservoirs of the road trailers or freight consists while they are being shunted.

Prior to approximately 20 years ago diesel engines were often very difficult to start especially in cold weather due to the fact that there is (even today) no electrical ignition of the fuel. Therefore, as many on the forum probably know it is the Pistons compressing the air/fuel mixture entering the cylinder that generates the heat that eventually ignites the diesel fuel. Going back to my days as a heavy goods transport driver we often left the vehicle engines idling overnight in cold weather for if not the starter would take so long to crank over the engine sufficiently to generate enough heat in the cylinders to ignite the fuel the batteries would give up long before the engine would start up.

However, today things are very different. What is known as “Glowplugs” in the cylinders heat the air diesel mixture as it enters the cylinders which even in the coldest weather ignites the fuel after a few turns of the engine by the starter. Many forum members who own a diesel car will know that in cold weather they are instructed to turn the key of the vehicle round to the cold start or push the car ignition card into the same position and hold until the dashboard cold start light goes out then release/turn to the starter position and the vehicle starts immediately. Holding the key or card in the cold start position for approximately 10 seconds allows the glowplugs to warm the air in the cylinder and the fuel in the injectors to a temperature where it ignites almost immediately on the engine turning.

The reason that diesel engines are left running these days in both rail and road transport yards or railheads is for the reason that often the engine cylinders or the piston rings are worn to such a sufficient extent that even with glowplugs in the engines the reduced compression caused by the worn components still makes the engine is very difficult to start after being shut down.

Some months ago in my occupation within industrial safety we were asked to investigate complaints by warehouse staff at a large distribution site of diesel exhaust fumes coming into the warehouse. The staff had already complained to the local management who had done nothing. They then directly wrote to the head office of the company who requested that my company attend and investigate. On investigation we found that the old shunt unit was being continuously run day and night even when no shunting operations were taking place. On obtaining the maintenance documents for the vehicle it transpired that the vehicle had done a very high mileage on the road before becoming one of the depot shunt vehicles. The high mileage had caused the engine cylinders of the vehicle to become very worn causing inefficient burn of the diesel fuel as well as glazing of the cylinders due to its low revs while continuously idling in the yard.

The distribution site manager eventually admitted that he did not wish to spend large amounts of money on an engine rebuild and so he viewed it was cheaper to burn the extra fuel as that cost could be spread over his quarterly budgets. On conclusion of the investigation the site manager was dismissed for endangering the health of the warehouse employees which I felt was a very just outcome for a person who put his quarterly bonus before the health of his employees.

Bill
Posted from the First Great Western Swansea to Bristol Parkway HST 15:00 service
 
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Just for interest - Most diesel loco's have a turbo lube pump that is energised as soon as the stop button is pressed. It is normally set to run 35 minutes after shutdown and keeps oiling and cooling the turbo's bearings even after turbo rundown has stopped.
 
Hi everybody.
Just for interest - Most diesel loco's have a turbo lube pump that is energised as soon as the stop button is pressed. It is normally set to run 35 minutes after shutdown and keeps oiling and cooling the turbo's bearings even after turbo rundown has stopped.

jjanmarine3, I believe although I am not 100% sure that the auto lube system you describe above is now fitted to the turbochargers of diesel cars. I took delivery of a new car three months ago which like many has an ecosystem fitted which when you are in stationary traffic shuts the engine off after two minutes of idling. You can then hear a very quiet electrical “whining” sound which I believe is the auto lube system to the turbocharger of the engine. I say I am not 100% sure of that fact as to be absolutely honest I have never read the manual for the car since taking delivery (LOL)

All I know is that in stop-go traffic situations the engine cuts out after two minutes of idling and then when the traffic moves you press the accelerator, the engine automatically starts and the car pulls away. Stop again, engine cuts out again and so on. A co-worker in the office also informed me that in winter the heater/air conditioning system also turns over to electrical power from the battery while the engine is stopped. Again as I have never read the manual I only have my co-workers advice on that.

Although I would go along with what falcus stated in his posting regarding wear and stress on engines could be caused by continuous stopping and starting, that probably is not the situation now with the modern materials being used. Evidence of that would be the fact that car manufacturers would not be fitting systems such as the above to my car and many others if there was any danger of excessive wear in the car engine.

Not that I would worry, it’s the manufacturer that is holding the liability for the five-year warranty I have on the vehicle. Incidentally, if any forum members have any further information on these systems, please post as I don’t really fancy reading the 130 page manual that came with the car.:D

Bill
 
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Hi everybody.
Falcus, there is no real reason why modern diesel engines should not be shut down immediately on the power units coming to a physical halt.

Real reason? Well, apparently Every class 1 in the U.S. disagrees, and from what others have posted, the U.K., Russia, and I would wager OZ as well.... Though the Real Reason may not be mechanical to every operator that operates this way, I would wager the reasons I outlined would be enough of an incentive, true or not, for any Pencil Pusher that has never actually driven a locomotive, or fixed one, to cling to outdated policies. For all I know it could even be a Union Stipulation so that Crews left sitting in a locomotive isn't forced to sit in the cold (Stranger things have happened). Whatever the reason, the Reality is that BNSF in Seattle runs their Gevos for hours/days/weeks on end in Idle, and I can confirm this with my own eyes. Thats real reason enough to somebody with the power to make that decision..... Apparently others around the nation can do the same, as many here have attested as will any number of Youtubers.....

After that, if you want to ammend that first sentance to "Mechanical Reason", then at least for short term usage, I would agree entirely with you. Long term, not so much. I have yet to see Gasket Material that will convince me its "Thermal Expansion Stress Proof" (Or impervious to the stresses incurred while expanding and contracting whenever the engine gets significantly cooler or hotter)...... Unless Large Diesel Mechanics are making use of some hitherto unknown to me technique or material that is exclusive to large Diesel Engines....

As far as Glow Plugs, I don't actually recall mentioning Cold Starts once in my post.... I did talk about Thermo-dynamics indirectly and how it affects engine usage though. Further, I'm fully aware of them, as I deal with them daily playing with Cummings & Ford Powerstroke (Shudders) Engines for my current job. After that, considering I do it daily through the Winter, Fall, and most of the Spring, I'm fully aware modern Diesel Locomotives have barely any issue with Cold Start since the inclusion of Glow Plugs.

As far as the Warehouse manager you mention, that sure sounds like a case of Justice Served. I'm glad he was ousted.... But I don't really see how it has much bearing on the current topic. Bad Maintenance will always cause more problems, health included, but we're talking about preventing wear and tear with good Maintenance...... Trying to dodge Maintenance is bad practice all around, but that particular locomotive sounds like it was due for it, and his decision to run it had more to do with hiding the state the engine was in through creative booking rather then actually preventing further maintenance (More like burying his head in the sand so he could pretend it wasn't needed)....

In the U.S. at least, the FRA absolutely requires engine checks every so many miles, and when certain conditions are met (Pretty much anything that would require an Engine Rebuild) it needs be taken care of or the engine "downed" until such time as its issues are taken care of and can be returned to service. In the End this works out cheaper for the Railroads as well anyway, particularly as the infrastructure to keep this kind of Maintenance Cycling going has now been in place for a good 30-40 years as far as I know on the Class 1s.

Although I would go along with what Falcus stated in his posting regarding wear and stress on engines could be caused by continuous stopping and starting, that probably is not the situation now with the modern materials being used. Evidence of that would be the fact that car manufacturers would not be fitting systems such as the above to my car and many others if there was any danger of excessive wear in the car engine.

Actually, AFAIK, most gaskets have been made from the same materials for the better part of about 40 years or so. The last big revolution in Materials Design for Gaskets occured in the 70s IIRC. Cars are still made of Steel, though with the inclusion of Fiberglass and Plastic, and Gaskets are generally some collapsible material, notably some kind of composite of Graphite or Carbon, particularly Head Gaskets, which in most engines are the biggest pain in the ^&* to replace and generally the single most labor intensive and thereby expensive bit of maintenance an engine can go through short of being re-machined in any notable way.

Next, as I understand it, what an Auto Lube system does, as JJanmarine breifly talks about, is to protect the Turbo Chargers Metals from being left too hot without fresh cool air or Lubricant to cool it. The only real difference this makes however, again as I understand it, is that instead of absolutely having to allow a Turbo Charger Equipped Engine a "Cooling Down Period" after heavy use before shut-down (Allowing the engine to Idle, for most Car-Truck sized engines 5-10 minutes, I'd have to imagine closer to 30-40 for Locomotives), is that you can now shut it down whenever and the automated system will kick in and in theory give it the cooling it needs until it is sufficiently cool to not damage itself (Where as before once you shut an engine off, it was the equivalent of a boat anchor regardless of Temp, and it would melt or damage itself all it was allowed to.....).

Its a nifty device, and depending on how the system is powered perhaps even economical (I haven't studied them over-much, none of what I drive has them), but I'm sure its another system to perform Maintenance on, there will be ways for it to fail. For instance I'd bet theres a good chance in the event of a crash involving an Engine Compartment Compromise that this system may not even kick in, in which case you may very still have a very hot Turbo Charger to deal with on top of everything else, which is no different from diesels 20-50 years ago anyway. The more complicated the plumbing...... At the end I would think these are at best insurance against Operators shutting down loco's too early, or at worst entirely superfluous to most Rail Operators. Generally speaking once a crew arrives anywhere after a long haul the locomotives have to sit while the crew puts it where it needs to be, and performs whatever they need to to leave the locomotive. Which in many places might be as simple as get up and leave the engines running, or as complicated as checking the train or leaving it in a state where it's easy for the next crew to do something with it.

As far as information for your own device, I would check to see where its getting its lubricant from. If its using Engine Oil, it probably won't require much attention from you at all, but if it has its own reservoir of something it needs that will need to be checked, probably at least as periodically as the Engine Oil/Coolant. Generally Turbo Chargers and the systems involved in their use and maintenance are nothing anyone without a decent familiarity with the things want to mess with. They're hot, and though sturdy enough, fragile in their own way that most people won't really understand (Think of the most EMO girl you've ever dated, and this behavior IMHO is the product of the inability to design a "One size fits all" solution to Engine Thermo-Dynamics). But hey, as you mentioned it, Aren't Warranties Grand? lol.

Anyway, post meant to be informative. Hope it accomplishes that. Thanks for reading if you did,
Falcus
 
I haven't been able to figure out what this mysterious box is. I've been searching Google for better part of an hour now and still haven't a clue. Anyone??





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Looks like it's an engine hour meter. It measures just that - the time on the engine. In aviation, we used them for everything - billing, when to schedule servicing and overhauls, value of an aircraft or engine, etc.
 
Yea, I think someone else and myself both said the same thing earlier in this thread. Diesel engines bigger then a certain size generally have Hour meters, like Odometers, except for the amount of time the engine has been in use. Try askin that fella that was gonna go take pictures of that SP H-12-44 if he can ask while hes there (Because that loco probably has one as well). Only issue though is that that pic looks like that gauge is newer then the wall behind it, so it may have been an after delivery addition.

All else Fails, I will even ask my (quasi) local museum about getting up there to take pictures of their H-12-44 and inquiring about it. Earliest I could do it would be weekend after next assuming I get a favorable response from them.

This is assuming this cab is in fact an FM H-12-44 Cab (The only other loco I can think of with that rounded roof would be an RS1-5, but the museum here also has the worlds one and only remaining RSD-4 anyway).

Good Luck,
Falcus
 
Never mind. I found it. It's a Hobbs Quartz Hour Meter. I meant not to post that reply, but I guess I messed up.
 
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