TS13

[Vern]

Thanks to the N3V guys for letting us know you are still about.

Sadly, the message that seems to come over is that the mainstream PC version of Trainz is currently seen as a bit secondary to pushing out various versions of Trainz "lite" for different gadgets. I appreciate this may bring in some revenue, but ultimately it's the PC version that has the biggest potential and of course the one that content and route developers are likely to work in.

 

[celje]

....we have released several updates for TS12 already, and we expect to release further updates in the future.
chris

Thank you very much for your kind words. For the records, in the past (2011) you personally said, that all upgrades, which N3V made for TS12, are hotfix and the real one upgrade with the name SP1 is coming.
I believe that you will keep the word and published SP1 this year (2012)

best regards

 

[WindWalkr]

Sadly, the message that seems to come over is that the mainstream PC version of Trainz is currently seen as a bit secondary to pushing out various versions of Trainz "lite" for different gadgets.

I don't think anyone has suggested this.

..but ultimately it's the PC version that has the biggest potential and of course the one that content and route developers are likely to work in.

I think that you're perhaps being a bit biased in that statement. Just because it's your favourite way to play doesn't mean that it has the "biggest potential" (whatever that might mean) or that it is necessarily the one in which most "route developers are likely to work in." Don't underestimate the value of accessibility.


But in case people are trying to read things into what I'm saying here:

We're happy with how the product is coming along as a whole. We're very happy to have had the opportunity to open up train simulation to a broader market. Some of the work we've done there is of course focused purely on the various mobile devices, but a lot of it is beneficial across the board. I look forward to seeing some of the mobile-edition changes make their way back onto Windows PCs and the Mac. I'm also looking forward to whatever comes next with the desktop versions. But I'm certainly not going to talk about future plans until we're ready to deliver.

cheers,

chris

 

[HLJames]

Hey WindWalkr, I appreciate how you guys operate. You guys seem to borrow some ideas of running a business from Apple, it seems, since they don't talk about plans ahead of time (other companies seem to do so, but they're starting to learn to keep it more secret in a sense). Keep up the good work.

 

[CaptEngland]

Hi WindWalkr and Tony,

Thanks for letting at least something slip about the future direction of Trainz. I look forward to a version hopefully for the HTC One X (it has 4 cores, BTW, just like most new P.C's :hehe.

Could you please let us all know how to get and use Blender or 3dMax for our tablets/smart phones, as if indeed route developers are using the other platforms to develop routes on, then it must be easier to also use a different platform than a high specification P.C. version !?! <Joke>

Anyway, I look forward to more "coming soon™" news!

Regards.
CaptEngland

 

[JCitron]

Thanks to the N3V guys for letting us know you are still about.

Sadly, the message that seems to come over is that the mainstream PC version of Trainz is currently seen as a bit secondary to pushing out various versions of Trainz "lite" for different gadgets. I appreciate this may bring in some revenue, but ultimately it's the PC version that has the biggest potential and of course the one that content and route developers are likely to work in.

Vern,

I don't see it this way either. Having worked for a small company at one time, this is how I've seen the operation work. They don't have the resources to throw at multiple projects at once, so when a new product is coming out, their focus will be to get that to market while working in the background, supporting the more mature ones such as the PC versions of Trainz.

@Tony Hilliam,

Nice to hear from you. I hope all is well.

John

 

[wholbr]

Hi Everybody

Vern, I don't see it this way either. Having worked for a small company at one time, this is how I've seen the operation work. They don't have the resources to throw at multiple projects at once, so when a new product is coming out, their focus will be to get that to market while working in the background, supporting the more mature ones such as the PC versions of Trainz.
John

As usual John you have hit the nail right on the head with your comments. Although N3V may be a large company the trainz "subsidiary" and the staff within it would seem to me to be operating in what is very much a niche market and therefore the rules governing small companies will apply to them as any other small organisation. Small companies such as my own always have to look very much to the future and to areas where their future income will be based. Tablet computers and high-end smartphones are very much the future as far as development is concerned .

In our own company we now have three tablets which have completely replaced the laptops that where there predecessors. Used by the three of us that are "out on the road" we find they now match any laptop for on the go office work and are instantly available in any situation and most importantly are very much lighter than their predecessors (and anyone who has ever lugged a laptop through the London Underground in the rush-hour will quickly avail themselves to my last comment).

With the above in mind, it should not be surprising that the trainz staff would be looking for the simulators future in the area of tablets and smart phones. It was only this morning that on the BBC it was being reported that one producer for the first time had recorded that tablets had outsold its laptops for the financial year ending April. The foregoing along with the fact that any number of producers are reporting big processing power increases in future versions of tablets and smart phones must have any business looking in that direction especially in the gaming market.

I am still a big fan of the PC, but I also feel that its demise may not be too far away.

Bill

 

[JCitron]

Hi Everybody


As usual John you have hit the nail right on the head with your comments. Although N3V may be a large company the trainz "subsidiary" and the staff within it would seem to me to be operating in what is very much a niche market and therefore the rules governing small companies will apply to them as any other small organisation. Small companies such as my own always have to look very much to the future and to areas where their future income will be based. Tablet computers and high-end smartphones are very much the future as far as development is concerned .

In our own company we now have three tablets which have completely replaced the laptops that where there predecessors. Used by the three of us that are "out on the road" we find they now match any laptop for on the go office work and are instantly available in any situation and most importantly are very much lighter than their predecessors (and anyone who has ever lugged a laptop through the London Underground in the rush-hour will quickly avail themselves to my last comment).

With the above in mind, it should not be surprising that the trainz staff would be looking for the simulators future in the area of tablets and smart phones. It was only this morning that on the BBC it was being reported that one producer for the first time had recorded that tablets had outsold its laptops for the financial year ending April. The foregoing along with the fact that any number of producers are reporting big processing power increases in future versions of tablets and smart phones must have any business looking in that direction especially in the gaming market.

I am still a big fan of the PC, but I also feel that its demise may not be too far away.

Bill

Hi Bill. I hope all is going well for you.

I don't see the PC market going away anytime soon, or at least until the tablet and smart devices catch up to where the desktop PC is with its graphics capabilities and processing power. The smaller devices, though spectacular today, are not even close to where the desktop machines and even laptops are now. Their interfaces are limited and awkward compared to the desktop machines, and their graphics processors do not have the horsepower yet to do what we would like them to do. Microsoft's new Surface, however is probably the direction many portables will go given that the devices can support a real operating system depending upon the processor version. The gotcha will still be the GPU. Without a good graphics processor, the program will be limited to a very small closed environment which is something the full version of Trainz is today.

John

 

[KenGreen]

I bought the iPad Trainz app when it was first released. I used it for about an hour and hadn't used it since. However I updated the App for free yesterday and whilst the improvement is considerable it still cannot even compare to TS2004 for capability. I think the value of the mobile market is by way of introduction to the full product. It is ideal for younger people and those that are always on the go but for those that like the scenery value of Trainz and graphics quality it is sadly lacking and as advances are made in PC processors and graphics cards I cannot see how tablets can surpass this development.

Ken

 

[amigacooke]

This year we have seen iOS sales overtake PC sales for the first time and given this weeks announcement of Trainz Driver for smart phones, we will see an even higher % of non-PC sales.

Sadly (for me) while iOS is a big growth area, the poor relation of the trainz franchise, the Mac version, is in the doldrums. While the iPad has had two updates and has a limited content creation upload ability and N3V payware download ability, poor old OSX trainz has none of these. I'd like to use the Duchess and Coronation Scot but ...

 

[KenGreen]

Is there a great deal of development going into Apple Mac compared to PC components.
The cheap price of iPad apps make it easy to overtake TS12 revenue. It is a throw away price even though I don't really intend to use it I would probably buy a later iPad Trainz version and the DLC just to see what it is like.
I still think that PC revenue should come from DLC until N3V can develop some new features on the PC version. TS2010 seemed a quantum leap on TR2006 whereas TS12 was an improvement on TS2010, rather like the tick tock of intel processor development.

Ken

 

[clam1952]

A mobile device could have the best processor in the world but it's not going to much use if you can't see the screen!
I think serious gamers and simulator users are not going to settle for tiny screens long term, especially when they get older and eyesight starts becoming a factor, I have no problems with a proper sized PC screen with or without glasses but I can't read your average mobile device or phone and tablets are not much better. I would imagine that constant use of these gadgets will have a detrimental effect on eyesight and create new forms of RSI.

Edit, seems there are already problems with RSI http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2100414/Got-iPhone-iPad-Now-prepare-injury.html

 

[jjanmarine3]

Hi guys,

I am pleased that so many guys commented on this thread because it has taken off my blinkers and I can see and understand much more about many aspects , not just playing trainz.
I think that to have a decent size screen to play this game is much more fun , even more fun to plug it into the big screen tv and then play, so i think the big screen will stay irrespective of other gadgets that are used by people for many different reasons.
I also know that trainz can be enjoyed by anybody from yougsters to the pensioners, and any asset you find in any other game or anywhere on earth and in the universe in future, can be loaded into trainz and made to work, and will not be out of place - from a small bug to a dinosour ! So everybody works together and we have the best game , knowledgeable people and cool forum to back it up .
How to do this and keep trainz alive I will personally leave to the wise guys , many of them have commented here and I see most have been around since 2006 and are still going strong. So thanks all you guys :Y:

 

[Konni]

Hi,

Reading through this thread and other threas on the same subject one get the impression that some guys still have not lerned to discriminate between the trainz software and content.

Speaking as a content creator, the producers of trainz have in the past brought too many versions on the market, which brought only little improvement in performance, but changes in content creating and requiring updates in existing content.

To clarify my position, Ts 2012 is what TRS 2009 and TRS 2010 ought to have been, while TRS 06 in hindsight is a failed intermediate between TRS 2004 and TRS 2009. In future I would appreciate, if N3V would not come up with a new version for PC until the improvement over 12 would be about as great as the improvement of 12 over 04.

In the meantime, I would buy updates to the trainz software, if I would exatly kow what it contains and that the improvements are helpful to my objectives. E.g. further improvements in the CCP, something like the old content creation suite, but allowing importation of meshes from blender as well as 3Dmax and possibly other 3d software packages as well.

With this in mind, I think it is a smart move to come up with version for new platforms like smartphones or tablet computers. I am wondering whether it might not be a good move for the future to split trainz for PC into two versions, one for high performance game computers and another for low performance "household" computers.

Cheers,

Konni

 

[wholbr]

Hi John and Everybody.

Hi Bill. I hope all is going well for you.
I don't see the PC market going away anytime soon, or at least until the tablet and smart devices catch up to where the desktop PC is with its graphics capabilities and processing power. The smaller devices, though spectacular today, are not even close to where the desktop machines and even laptops are now. Their interfaces are limited and awkward compared to the desktop machines, and their graphics processors do not have the horsepower yet to do what we would like them to do. Microsoft's new Surface, however is probably the direction many portables will go given that the devices can support a real operating system depending upon the processor version. The gotcha will still be the GPU. Without a good graphics processor, the program will be limited to a very small closed environment which is something the full version of Trainz is today.

John

John, the business and everything else is going along very nicely at the moment and we seem to be avoiding the recession that is around us everywhere, And thanks for enquiring

With regard to your comments on the power of PCs as compared to high-end smartphones and tablets I could not agree with you more regarding that position at the present. What I was trying to advocate as I see it (probably not too well) was how the future was likely to develop and how small businesses or small sections of larger businesses such as Trainz within N3V have to look to developing markets as future source of revenue.

As it stands at present flight simulators and train simulators are somewhat different from the main gaming market. It is a fact that many of us soon come to realise that Trainz can quickly take over your life and become a full-time hobby with content and route development becoming the main reason for living, (I unfortunately do not get much time for that these days LOL). Therefore a high end PC is probably the best setup for handling all the graphic and CPU power that is needed to bring about "our creations"

The above however is not the main gaming market. Most of that is the "shoot em up" or "race em around" type games that the younger generation seem to spend so much time on and is the backbone of the market. I bought my Galaxy tablet approximately 18 months ago and it came with two of the above type games pre-installed and it seems to run them very well although I have not spent much time with them.

However, the last two tablets acquired by the business is the latest iPad and an Asus. By comparison with them my Galaxy now looks practically primaeval when judged against the speed and power of them. Things have moved on so quickly in the phone and tablet development it is difficult to know just what the power of these units will be in another two years.

Having said all the above at the present time I am still very much a PC person. Whether it is in the office, gaming or just surfing the net any reasonable spec PC will handle everything thrown at it and at the same time go on forever. It is only the portability of tablets that is making them so popular as everything can be instantly available "on the go".

Bill

 

[JCitron]

Hi John and Everybody.


John, the business and everything else is going along very nicely at the moment and we seem to be avoiding the recession that is around us everywhere, And thanks for enquiring

With regard to your comments on the power of PCs as compared to high-end smartphones and tablets I could not agree with you more regarding that position at the present. What I was trying to advocate as I see it (probably not too well) was how the future was likely to develop and how small businesses or small sections of larger businesses such as Trainz within N3V have to look to developing markets as future source of revenue.

As it stands at present flight simulators and train simulators are somewhat different from the main gaming market. It is a fact that many of us soon come to realise that Trainz can quickly take over your life and become a full-time hobby with content and route development becoming the main reason for living, (I unfortunately do not get much time for that these days LOL). Therefore a high end PC is probably the best setup for handling all the graphic and CPU power that is needed to bring about "our creations"

The above however is not the main gaming market. Most of that is the "shoot em up" or "race em around" type games that the younger generation seem to spend so much time on and is the backbone of the market. I bought my Galaxy tablet approximately 18 months ago and it came with two of the above type games pre-installed and it seems to run them very well although I have not spent much time with them.

However, the last two tablets acquired by the business is the latest iPad and an Asus. By comparison with them my Galaxy now looks practically primaeval when judged against the speed and power of them. Things have moved on so quickly in the phone and tablet development it is difficult to know just what the power of these units will be in another two years.

Having said all the above at the present time I am still very much a PC person. Whether it is in the office, gaming or just surfing the net any reasonable spec PC will handle everything thrown at it and at the same time go on forever. It is only the portability of tablets that is making them so popular as everything can be instantly available "on the go".

Bill

I'm glad you're doing well, although you should be retired and enjoying your time right now instead of running a business unless you like staying busy. My late great uncle worked until he was 88 or 89 and decided to retire at 90. He didn't have to work; just liked staying busy.

I can't agree with you more about the value of small devices in the workplace. I have my work email downloading to my ancient BlackBerry Curve along with Pidgin IM pinging me as well. At Oracle where I work and support about 640 people now, this is a godsend and time savor. The sales force that I support uses iPads and other tablet gadgets in addition to their desktops and laptops. The smaller devices work great for meetings and travel, and of course as a pinch when something is down. Recently Oracle has released a IOS version of Fusion. http://www.infoworld.com/d/application-development/oracle-shows-javafx-ios-and-android-174996 which is their new Middleware CRM program. When a multibillion dollar company starts investing in mobile devices such as these, it's time that we all take notice.

And I concede that what we want from the program will probably not happen in some time on any of these devices. We need the panorama and screen real estate for route development and driving. I admit too that even with my glasses, I have a hard time reading my little screen on my phone, or even typing on the keypad. iPads too present an issue because for someone who is a pianist and harpsichordist, and touch-types, I seem to fat finger my way around on that thing. We haven't even discussed assets needed for good route building either. I don't think these devices come with much disk space either. This too is another hurdle to cross before these become a mainstream full-fledged gaming device for not just people using Trainz, but many other graphics intensive fully-immersive worlds that seem to be the norm today.

John

 

[Lots_Trains]

Well the bit that worries me is it appears that the desktop version will be updated from the handheld and ipad type versions. It appears the development will go into the phones Ipads ect (more market share) and the true game is going to take a dive as its updated from these versions and turns into a more arcade type game I certainly hope not. Thats what I get from Tony's and Chris's comments and the latest speil from the latest phone release.

TS12 is hash in my opinion, with a small driving console more to suit smaller screens, padlocks over points ( a horrible addition from multiplay ). I can see more detriment to game from these other devices. I'll just stick to my TS10 for the meantime. And won't get my hopes about a new version, until I see the compromises been made for these other devices.

The new devises maybe a nice money earner for the company all well and good for them, but I think we may well be past the best versions for true railfans, I can see the gimmicks a coming.

Cheers

Lots

 

[WindWalkr]

Well the bit that worries me is it appears that the desktop version will be updated from the handheld and ipad type versions. It appears the development will go into the phones Ipads ect (more market share) and the true game is going to take a dive as its updated from these versions and turns into a more arcade type game I certainly hope not. Thats what I get from Tony's and Chris's comments and the latest speil from the latest phone release.

I love how people can ignore some of what you say, and read in some things that simply aren't there.

Each platform stands on its own merits. Each form factor has certain things that it's good at, and certain things that it's less good at. The tablets are accessible to the masses but are less flexible than a desktop. The desktops are flexible and powerful but not particularly accessible. The phones have limited space for controls and displays. The important thing is that diversity is good. We've known for a long time that Trainz isn't the most accessible game in existence. To some extent this is deliberate- we know that a lot of you take this "game" very seriously- and to some extent it's something we'd like to fix - we want to open up the product to new users without too steep a learning curve. The handheld devices are the epitome of casual accessibility and in our efforts to suit Trainz to this market, we've made a lot of forward progress in that area that we may not have made for a long time on the desktop. Bringing this back to the desktop is most definitely a good thing.

That doesn't mean that "..the true game is going to take a dive .. and turns into a more arcade type game." It just means that the desktop platforms get some benefits for free that we could not have easily justified if it weren't for the desktop platforms. These features are things that we definitely consider beneficial, but not things that we can really put on the box as selling points.

.. padlocks over points ( a horrible addition from multiplay ).

Actually, I'm personally very happy with this change. It solves an age-old problem with players and AI 'randomly' derailing each other, without breaking any typical real-life behaviour. If you can be driving at speed towards a junction, jump out of the cab, outrun the train, flip the junction, then get back into the cab.. let's just say I don't want to be a passenger on your train ;-)

Yes, it was introduced because we were concerned that this case would become more common (or be deliberately exploited) in multiplayer, but that doesn't mean that we thought "oh, we need this for multiplayer, so let's just slap it in everywhere." The inclusion of this feature into single player was deliberate.

but I think we may well be past the best versions for true railfans, I can see the gimmicks a coming.

Well, I've certainly heard that sentiment a lot in the past 11 years..

cheers,

chris

 

[Lots_Trains]

Hiya Chris

Well I think we might just have to agree to disagree on a lot of this.

If you are making most of your earnings from other than desktop devices ,you would be absolutly silly not to invest heavely that side of things. Absolutley silly not to, and for that reason it will drive develoipment. So some of what is done for these devices is detrimental for the desktop version you can't deny that,it has to. Sales and marketing talk will say it dosn't. It does mean you are unlikely to devote huge funds to a rewrite of the Graphics side of the program (it needs sooner than later), for smaller screens its not needed, so probably not gonna happen, you are probably not going to fully multicore the program, havn't heard of a multlicore cell phone/ipad yet so probably not gonna happen, you are proably not going make Trainz 64bit (I'm on shaky ground here I dunno if these new devices are 64bit my guess is they are not) so thats not likely to happen. So of course its gonna effect the desktop version, but thats life you have to pay the bills. But as a customer I don't have to like it.!!

But I can have my say so when you go into your next meeting you might consider allowing desktop versions to turn a lot of the gimicks off. Its not much to ask really.

1. Moving the Camera Buttons to the menu to change view and look at all the marvelous stuff in TS12 now takes 2 clicks instead of one, its a real pain. Its my most used control in Trains

2. The Padlocks, you maybe happy but they make he game look ridiculous. I've been here for 10 & 1/2 years and I've never heard mention that it was a problem as you have talked of, never, its one thing u learn in trains real quick, don't derail the train, you could have a least provided an option to turn them off, ( and no not the button that turns the points arrows off ) you may be happy with them for me its a step back and its arcadish.

3. Small driving consolue, I hate it you can't tell me thats not for the small screens. Lucky I've been able to perseude someone to make a decent HUD for the desktop as an improvement.

4. Its still my opinion that kick up to satilite view id for the benefit of smaller devices never like that, again no reason why an option could not be given to turn this feature off.

5. You are gradully converting more items in the menu above trains, a menu makes everything 2 clicks away, you make the perfect device the the dosappering bar at the top move your mouse up and hey presto everything could be one click away on the beatiful little bar, but again its probably not the best for smaller screens.

Yes I agree its a steep learning curve, all good things are unfortunatly, but its detrimental to the mass market.

Anyway mate take care, and glad you guys have hit the pay dirt u deserve it.

Hey its a catch 22 really if ya don't earn the dollars you can't invest in expensive upgrades.

Cheers

Lots

 

[WindWalkr]

If you are making most of your earnings from other than desktop devices ,you would be absolutly silly not to invest heavely that side of things. Absolutley silly not to, and for that reason it will drive develoipment.

Agreed, if that were the case.

So some of what is done for these devices is detrimental for the desktop version you can't deny that,it has to.

I can and do deny that. There are two ways of looking at your remark, and I disagree with both:

1. That we're spending money on the mobile version that could be spent on the desktop edition, and thus the desktop edition will suffer. This suggestion ignores the fact that the overall pool of money is larger, and that some of the work can be shared between versions. With this in mind, the more successful editions of the product we have, the more that each individual edition will benefit. (Eg. instead of spending 100% of the PC edition income improving the PC edition, we can now spend 100% of the PC edition income PLUS 30% shared development with the Mobile edition.)

2. That the act of improving one edition actively hurts other editions. This is only true if we choose to make it true, and I'm not clear what you think we'd achieve by doing that. It's up to us to determine what code and content is shared between the editions, and what isn't. If we think that a change benefits one platform but is detrimental to another, why would we include it in both. By this flawed logic, My First Trainz Set would clearly hurt TS12 immensely, since they both based on the Trainz engine and yet cater to entirely different markets.

It does mean you are unlikely to devote huge funds to a rewrite of the Graphics side of the program (it needs sooner than later), for smaller screens its not needed, so probably not gonna happen, you are probably not going to fully multicore the program, havn't heard of a multlicore cell phone/ipad yet so probably not gonna happen, you are proably not going make Trainz 64bit (I'm on shaky ground here I dunno if these new devices are 64bit my guess is they are not) so thats not likely to happen.

* The current-gen iPad has a higher screen resolution than the vast majority of PCs. (2048x1536)
* The current-gen iPad has a substantially faster and more capable GPU than existed on PCs at the time the Trainz engine was developed.
* All current-gen mobile devices have at least two CPU cores, and we're much more likely to see mobile devices scale up the number of cores than the speed of each core.
* You're right that there's no need for 64-bit in the mobile space as yet, although that looks to be coming over the next few years. Likewise, a large number of our Windows customers don't fully support 64-bit at this time either, so you can't really argue that mobile is holding us up here.

You need to do some reading on what the mobile platforms are capable of before making technical arguments. They're a lot more capable than you'd expect.

1. Moving the Camera Buttons to the menu to change view and look at all the marvelous stuff in TS12 now takes 2 clicks instead of one, its a real pain. Its my most used control in Trains

Point taken, although this doesn't really relate to the mobile devices. You do realise that there are keyboard shortcuts for this, if input-efficiency is a concern?

2. The Padlocks, you maybe happy but they make he game look ridiculous. I've been here for 10 & 1/2 years and I've never heard mention that it was a problem as you have talked of, never, its one thing u learn in trains real quick, don't derail the train, you could have a least provided an option to turn them off, ( and no not the button that turns the points arrows off ) you may be happy with them for me its a step back and its arcadish.

People swear at the AI frequently, and this is one of the reasons. There are other reasons, but "you didn't fix everything" is not a good argument for fixing nothing. Arguing that various HUD elements should be able to be hidden is reasonable, and at the end of the day it's a case-by-case decision which things should hide and which should stay. On one hand, we want to ensure that the visuals are as clean as possible. On the other hand, we want the game to be understandable to users without them having to guess at why things are happening. That doesn't mean it's arcady, just that we recognise that it's a simulation and that certain real-life limitations don't make a lot of sense. Likewise, we don't make the cursor invisible. (Yeah, that's over-exaggerating your comment, but hopefully you'll understand my point..)

3. Small driving consolue, I hate it you can't tell me thats not for the small screens. Lucky I've been able to perseude someone to make a decent HUD for the desktop as an improvement.

We're trying to avoid cluttering the screen, and that's only partly because of the mobile devices. Even our lowest-resolution mobile devices at the current time have the same screen resolution as some common PCs. As you note, the HUDs are also user-replaceable. This is something that we're working to improve on.

4. Its still my opinion that kick up to satilite view id for the benefit of smaller devices never like that, again no reason why an option could not be given to turn this feature off.

I don't understand what you're saying here, but I can say that satellite view is a TS12-only feature and has nothing to do with mobile devices.

5. You are gradully converting more items in the menu above trains, a menu makes everything 2 clicks away, you make the perfect device the the dosappering bar at the top move your mouse up and hey presto everything could be one click away on the beatiful little bar, but again its probably not the best for smaller screens.

I'm not entirely sure what you're saying here, but it seems like you're repeating point #1.

Yes I agree its a steep learning curve, all good things are unfortunatly, but its detrimental to the mass market.

I'm a mac user at heart, so I don't agree that all good things have steep learning curves :-D You're right that steep learning curves are bad for the mass market.


I think we've got a bright future ahead of us.

cheers,

chris