Truly; a day that will be remembered in history:

Should be marked as a change that America starting to catch up with what is already practice elsewhere in the world.
 
Greece doesn't have high speed rail. :|

Honestly this is a much needed piece of infrastructure and it's a shame that so many seek to politicize it. The cost of expanding freeways and airports to keep up with the growing demand for travel in California would probably ultimately exceed the cost of a high speed rail line, and would definitely have a higher environmental toll and would generally take up more space and probably lead to the destruction of more homes and businesses for additional highway travel lanes.

The infrastructure is desperately needed, and high speed rail is certainly the best way to add huge amounts of additional capacity for minimal investment.
 
this is what america deserve.and it should be done long before but still a milestone will be made if this project got sucessful
 
There's nothing political about it...broke is broke, no matter what party you play in...in fact: even if you're independent! Note to self... when I do move out of this disaster, I won't move into that disaster.
 
Isn't it interesting? The level of enthusiasm for this project is typically directly proportional to one's distance from the state, and the Franchise Tax Board.

Bernie
 
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Manditor Forfiture of right of way, State aquirement via Eminant Domain is needed:
The California project, however, has had its share of critics, including John Tos, an almond farmer.
"We want them to stay off the land. It is not our intention to allow this to happen through our property. We farmed here for a reason, the tranquility of it all. This is farming country. And we want to keep it like that,"

Surely the cost will over run at 10,000 times the original, estimate will occur.

Buyt I hope that CA gets a much needed high speed rail transportation system ... and shows thw World that it can be done ... In the US !
 
if this project got sucessful .then there might be possibility that any other big state might think of starting its own high speed rail system and then this trend moves on until the whole america will be connected through high speed rail system
 
I guessed right away that Euphod was niftily toucing on economic matters! Because of the dispartity in passenger rail appreciation though such a move would be more noted in America all things being equal. Does make a change and something positive.
 
Why should it be a millstone - don't you want to catch up with the global train world ir just be a has been??
 
Ya know, its funny. In the late 30's, we had the ten fastest trains in the world (all of them were streamliners), but after WWII, we turned our backs on the railroads in favor of the interstate highways and airports. We pay at least 3x as much to airports and highways to maintain infastructure, while railroads have to fend for themselves. We have been playing catchup with France, England, and Japan in terms of high speed rail now, when all we had to do in the first place was help the railroads with funding and not turn our backs on them. Now we call this a "milestone", and in some regard, it is, but we could have acheved this a lot earlier if we had just maintained a fair playing field for railroads!
 
A couple of things.

First, there is a long list of things most Americans would prefer not to "catch up" to the rest of the world on, and with good reason. On the other hand, the same can be said with equal justice about the peoples in other countries. We are different, as are our countries and institutions. Argument by analogy is weak, but attempts to analogize nations are the weakest.

Second, let's stop this business about planes landing at airports for free and truckers driving their trucks at no cost while the railroads have had to go it alone. When railroads were being built they were heavily subsidized by the people who wanted them to come to their towns. Most of these gave these subsidies in the form of land, which the railroads quickly converted to money once their lines were built. There were other inducements as well. This to induce the construction of a private, profit making utility to connect these towns to the rest of the country. The same is true of airports. But the use of airports is not a net loss to the local governments that have built and maintain them. Landing and other fees paid to the largest 100 airports, not all, just the largest 100, amounted to $42 billion in 2004. In addition to this, the cities collected parking fees, taxed restaurants and hotels in the vicinity, and charged concession fees for on premises amenities. As far as truckers were concerned, they pay their share, too. According to the American Trucking Association, truckers are paying something at or over $35 billion a year to the state and federal governments to use the roads. I can't find estimates of how much money flows into government coffers as a result of the synergistic effects of the trucking and passenger transportation industries, but I suspect it is large. This sounds like plenty of money to take care of things to me. To the extent that it is not, it is because large chunks of this revenue are wasted on boondoggles, if California is any example.

Contrast this with the projected, sparkling new California HSR. Not only will it connect nothing to nothing after phase one (San Fernando Valley to Merced?, would someone please describe with particularity what exists on this route justifying the cost? I'm familiar with that route and can't think of a thing) but it isn't really going to connect anything to anything when it is finished. Not only is it going to ruin a great deal of some of the best farmland in the US, but the billions in wealth will be squandered to do what? Maybe to transport a few dozen college students and retirees, assuming they have some reason to go where this HSR is going, who wouldn't be driving their cars and trucks, if they have any, on the roads to go to spots on the HSR route anyway. And instead of producing a nice revenue stream for the state for its upkeep, as airports and roads do, it will have to be heavily subsidized, to the tune of G-d knows how many billions a year, from day one of operation just to be operated and maintained. This will all come out of the pockets of the people of California, almost none of whom live or work within many thousands of acres of the HSR.

It is difficult to discuss HSR without violating the Code of Conduct, but the reason for that is the most powerful refutation of the supposed need for it. It is all political, not economic. This toy train with an enormous price tag doesn't need a subsidy. It needs a reason to be.

Bernie
 
I have no issue with HSR, I do have an issue with any entity be it state or country that would begin such a project when it's finances are running in the red, and their leader are begging the citizens to agree to pay more and more in taxes just to maintain the status quo, let alone finance a multi-billion dollar improvement such as this.

Now if this were a State that had it's finances in order to begin with, you wouldn't hear me moaning a bit. In addition: frankly who cares about what "the rest of the world" is doing? If my neighbors purchase a Bentley and take a second mortgage on their home to do so, does that mean I should as well... or risk appearing "behind the times"?

Try to disregard the political divisions and international pride some seem to be including in their discussions, and try to look at it from a common sense "kitchen table" economics point of view. These people that think they are all about the "big picture" often make the mistake of overlooking the "little picture". The big picture is great, I'd like to see anti-gravity transportation someday, but not at the sacrifice of the immediate future!
 
Would say bl4882 analogy can be a pointless thing but here we are specifically talking about railways and we are all railway minded people here so this is one area your country could do with catching up on. Must say that jacksonbarno does have a point to a degree. Even accounting for the size of the country other places are bigger and have a far better rail infrastructure. Economics do I agree have a big point to make as Euphod states however the country spends far too much creating a military empire everywhere that is totally un-neccesary. What is it now - over 200 bases world-wide and recently another 4 kind of clandestinely in Africa. More should be spent at home because by Heavens it is needed the way things are.

I wouldn't expect America to go back to the halycon days of pre World War 2 days, railwise. That just isn't practical any more but it could do with a national rail system well that is that. It is a negative to hide behind parralels as if the US cannot learn from anywhere else especially in our world here of trains!
 
Thank you rjhowie for a reasoned, cogent response. I disagree, but that's what makes our forum interesting. You make good points, but I think they are not the only ones. On the other hand, I can't say that an HSR wouldn't be the gateway to new productivity and prosperity. It may well be. Now we will see.

Bernie
 
...When railroads were being built they were heavily subsidized by the people who wanted them to come to their towns...
Yes, people did pay the railroads, but people don't pay for an airport to be built in their towns!

...Contrast this with the projected, sparkling new California HSR. Not only will it connect nothing to nothing after phase one...
This, I agree with. If it connected, say L.A. to Sacramento, or San Fran, it would have been a better implementation, but at least its a step in the right direction! After they have built it, it will be easier to expand the corridor to larger cities. They are planning to have a corridor that connects NY to Detroit, Buffalo, and Chicago, at least that's needed more, but as I said before, its a step, and after this, maybe other HSR projects will get off the ground.

...This will all come out of the pockets of the people of California...

The same thing happens with airports, I don't see you complaining!

...This toy train with an enormous price tag doesn't need a subsidy. It needs a reason to be....

Would you rather that the government doesn't give subsidies to roadways and airports? The government gives 15 billion to airports and 20 billion to highways in subsidies, while they only have given about 500 million to railroads collectively.
 
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I'm always amazed at the facts I learn here! Just today I learned that the State of California has it's own military bases, flung wide and far throughout the world!:hehe:
 
$15 billion to airports and $20 billion to highways in gifts? Not exactly. This is not a gift, but comes out of the $75 billion plus in fees and taxes paid by airplanes and trucks to use those facilities, just as consignors pay tariffs to ship freight on trains. And that only covers a portion of what is paid in taxes and fees by all users. That is the difference between HSR and the "subsidies" you are talking about. HSR is not projected to pay its own way at any time, ever. And it will not. It will be a continuing drain on everyone who does not use it. Pay billions now to build it, pay many more billions to run what is built. Anyone who thinks this is such a great idea and wants to invest in this enterprise is welcome to contact the California Governor's office to arrange to buy some of the bonds that will come due for payment not too far in the future, and if generous, such persons could subscribe to underwrite the operating deficits. Wouldn't mind riding it myself, as long as it's at someone else's expense. And that's the problem: eventually the money will run out. You will likely end up as a general creditor of the State of California when it goes into default, but you will have the satisfaction of having been on the leading edge of rail passenger transport in the 20th, not the 21st century.

Bernie

Just so it's clear. This money the states and the federales pay to maintain the roads and airports are not subsidies but are maintenance costs the airlines and trucking firms pay well over $75 billions to use. That money is intended for use for maintenance and improvement. But as much as half of it is not. There is no subsidy, gift, or free ride. This money is paid before the fuel tax, income tax, inventory tax, blah-blah-blah taxes, &c that these enterprises pay out of such profits they manage to safeguard from the "porous and absorbent hands of the state," (couldn't say it better than Ludwig von Mises).
 
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