Vals_Loeder
Banned
Indeed, there will be a ****storm. Another will arrive when the subs realize there isn't something worth paying the sub every month and they will end the sub and have nothing left and need to buy the full game (again).
TRS19 - Early Access Is Coming!
- Thread starter Tony_Hilliam
- Start date
Indeed, there will be a ****storm. Another will arrive when the subs realize there isn't something worth paying the sub every month and they will end the sub and have nothing left and need to buy the full game (again).
amigacooke
Well-known member
You seriously think I'm not allowed to comment on your post? That's truly amazing.
Hello, sir
From what I read thus far from the community expressing their negative opinions about this subscription method, your post, sir, is the first one that expressed a valid and powerful point -- You've cover everything in your statement!
Kind Regards :wave:
Ish
Well, you didn't buy my post, so why should i listen to your criticism?
Funny how that works.
Not my battle but does that mean that everyone that disagrees with a post of yours should just shut up? Just wondering
No. My post was meant to be taken sarcastically based on how people believe you can't criticize Trainz Plus because you don't have to buy it.
Feel free to voice you opinions of my posts. Lord knows that's all i do anymore lol
Feel free to voice you opinions of my posts. Lord knows that's all i do anymore lol
Chris, I did not take Amiga's comment to be an attack on your criticism, I saw it as pointing out that if anyone did not like the idea of subscriptions or Trainz Plus, then they did not have to get the Gold subscription option. It is the same as the very recent fight over the subscription option - it seems that some people saw the word "subscriptions" and did not look further down to see the purchase option at the bottom of the list.
I saw the Trainz Plus feature in the original product announcement and while I saw it as innovative and interesting, it did not appeal to me. It seemed too much like an invitation to becoming a permanent beta tester but I am sure that there will be some who would enjoy that.
On the matter of those who do not have the Gold sub having to wait 2-3 years between releases that have these new features, then look at my timeline above. I have bought every new version of Trainz, except the TC series, as soon as it came out. The new versions have, on average, been every 2-3 years.
amigacooke
Well-known member
No reason at all if you think it's baseless.
But here's the full package if you're interested:
- I don't think Trainz Plus is disgusting, maybe unwise, but I'm not forced to take part, so I'm prepared to see how it pans out;
- it's very kind of DTG to update Railworks annually, but they weren't prepared to give me Train Simulator World for free, presumably they expected to recoup the development cost;
- I don't think that the improvements that will come in Trainz Plus should be free, so I don't think charging for it is stupid, I'm kind of hoping that the rolling development will improve the next 'retail' release;
- Trainz Plus gives subscription users access to brand new features that won't be available for another 3-4 years, that's true, but I'll be able to see what's coming and hopefully all the bugs will be gone by the time I buy the next 'retail' version, either way, I'm no worse off;
- I'd agree that N3V don't always give the impression they are listening, but I suspect you mostly mean that they are terrible at listening to you which may well be true;
- no one asked for Trainz Plus, and no one asked for the Subscription Service would seem to be an assumption, it appears some are taking the option even if they didn't ask for it;
- N3V have made the full game at US$70 and I have left it at that;
- the subscription isn't necessary, but it seems some are happy with the choice and I can't think of a good reason to deny them that choice.
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Some people are not truly happy unless they are moaning and whining about something. Just gives me a good laugh reading the cr**.
Seriously.....it's a game, whether you buy it outright, become a subscription buyer or choose not to do either.....who really cares. It's your money, your choice to do as you please.
How about we all concentrate on what is still needed doing and give constructive back and maybe we'll all end up getting what we want Trainz to be.
Seriously.....it's a game, whether you buy it outright, become a subscription buyer or choose not to do either.....who really cares. It's your money, your choice to do as you please.
How about we all concentrate on what is still needed doing and give constructive back and maybe we'll all end up getting what we want Trainz to be.
I mean, yeah. All i do is b*tch and moan about the Subscription service without offering any real criticism...except i did. I made a whole post about my experience with TRS19 so far.
I get it: constantly explaining why i have problems with the game, the services around it, and the responses i've gotten apparently makes me seem like i'm nothing but an arsehole that hates everything to do with Trainz. But, as with many other games, i criticize Trainz so heavily because i want to see it improve.
Similar to pware, when i first got TRS2006, i followed up with TS10, TS12, T:ANE, and now TRS19 when i could afford it (and when i had a PC that could run them). I still enjoy playing Trainz, but pointing out and commenting on its flaws is what keeps the game fresh. If every version of Trainz was just TRS2006 with a new coat of paint every year, not as many people would be buying it. But i keep buying products in the Trainz series because every game improves on the last, to a certain extent.
I don't "moan and whine and complain" because i hate Trainz. I do it because i want Trainz to be as good a product as it can be. Hence why, in a post a few days ago, i went over most of the praises and issues i had with TRS19 so far. I want TRS19 to be the best version of Trainz, just as we wanted TS2009, TS10, TS12, and T:ANE to be the best versions of Trainz when they were new. However, that involves a heavy amount of criticism, both about the game and the services surrounding it.
I know i'm usually pretty harsh when i criticize Trainz, and that moreso comes down to how i talk as a person, but i still try and offer valid criticisms based on what i personally believe to be "quality standards". QUality, as a whole, is largely subjective, and discussing the problems people have with new games is what helps those games improve. TRS19 is no different.
IMO, speaking nothing but praises for a product can prevent that product from improving, but you can go too far in the other direction too. Following that ideology, i was as objective as possible when first opening up TRS19. There were things that i liked, and there were things that i disliked. For example, i like the option to control the overall Brightness of a scene in the Environment Controls. On the other hand, the draw distance of the built-in TurfFX assets is pretty bad. TRS19 has both good and bad qualities, and so far, the good outweighs the bad (opinions on the Subscription Service and Trainz Plus not withstanding; i'm referring TRS19 as a game, in this case).
As much as i despise it, those that have responded to me are correct: no one has to buy into the Subscription Service. Vouching for the Subscription Service or buying the $70 base game alone is entirely the choice of the consumer, and honedtly, that's great. The only reason i bought TRS19 as early as i did was because i had the option to just buy the base game and leave it at that. If anything, the fact that the consumer can choose how to pay for their game is a positive. But the Subscription Service (and Trainz Plus) both have issues that, to me, make them the less favorable ways to purchase the game. If TRS19 was only available via a subscription service, i would not have bought the game at all. Luckily, that is not the case.
Yes, my tone is usually harsh and unforgiving, but criticizing TRS19, and any product in general, is what helps the product improve. I just hope that TRS19 doesn't become the downfall of N3V, as long as each game from here on out improves on the last. It took T:ANE a service pack and a few hotfixes to make it the "best version of Trainz" in my opinion; i truly hope that TRS19 is the "best version of Trainz" on Day 1. And so far, it isn't. But that is definitely subject to change between now and it's formal release date.
To many people, Trainz is not just "a game", it is far more important than that - to some it is a "passion", almost a lifestyle. I admit that it is the only game I have ever purchased (but I do play MS Solitaire but that does not count). Ok Ok, I just lied, I did buy MSTS but in my defence that was before I discovered Trainz.
Chris is right, it is important that we tell N3V what we really think, things we don't like, things we hate as well as things we do like. It is also important to tell them what we would like to see. Unfortunately, there is a tendency in these forums to exaggerate "I" to "us" then to "everybody" so the sentiment "I hate this" becomes "everybody hates this". This is understandable when we are passionate about something.
I don't believe that anyone wants to see the Trainz franchise go under by constant negative posts. The "Fury" saga sank Auran who created the franchise and the video games world is full of startups who fail to make even a first release game. Subscriptions, like them or not, are now a fact in the entertainment industry. Extras, such as "Trainz Plus" (also not a new concept), are often necessary as an added inducement and a generator of sales revenue that keeps a business going and producing.
Single standalone products offered every 2-3 years is no longer sufficient to pay for the ongoing development costs of each new product. A steady income stream, offered by subscription services with upgrade inducements, is becoming a necessity.
My opinions.
Chris is right, it is important that we tell N3V what we really think, things we don't like, things we hate as well as things we do like. It is also important to tell them what we would like to see. Unfortunately, there is a tendency in these forums to exaggerate "I" to "us" then to "everybody" so the sentiment "I hate this" becomes "everybody hates this". This is understandable when we are passionate about something.
I don't believe that anyone wants to see the Trainz franchise go under by constant negative posts. The "Fury" saga sank Auran who created the franchise and the video games world is full of startups who fail to make even a first release game. Subscriptions, like them or not, are now a fact in the entertainment industry. Extras, such as "Trainz Plus" (also not a new concept), are often necessary as an added inducement and a generator of sales revenue that keeps a business going and producing.
Single standalone products offered every 2-3 years is no longer sufficient to pay for the ongoing development costs of each new product. A steady income stream, offered by subscription services with upgrade inducements, is becoming a necessity.
My opinions.
I'll agree with most of what you said above pware.......especially the money side of things, considering N3V shelled something like $6 million AUD to develop TRS2019 to release and more to be spent yet.
Constructive criticism is good for all things......it's all this non-constructive criticism that achieves nothing. To me, that basic whinging & moaning. Do I agree with everything the game is right now....of course not. If I find or see something that can be fixed or improved......I tell the devs, I don't bother whinging & moaning on the forum.
Constructive criticism is good for all things......it's all this non-constructive criticism that achieves nothing. To me, that basic whinging & moaning. Do I agree with everything the game is right now....of course not. If I find or see something that can be fixed or improved......I tell the devs, I don't bother whinging & moaning on the forum.
These Forums are operate by N3V themselves, and they've spent a decent amount of time reading the TRS19 section here. Seems like the easiest way to discuss criticism is via these Forums.
To be honest, you're undermining your own point by constantly whining about people offering criticism on TRS19...but then here i am telling you that, basically causing the cycle to repeat. There's no good solution here.
Exactly! Anyone who shells out $150+ should receive a usable copy of '19 at minimum, the DLC is fine to disappear afterwards imo.
Thanks Ish!
Do tell how you know this... They are more than welcome to (attempt to) charge more for the core product if they desire. In my opinion, attempting to garner added revenue through DLC users may not want and blocking future features isn't the answer. Unfortunately for developers, the market determines the acceptable prices, not the other way around.
So for $6mil (not sure where this came from either) we got slightly improved (maybe?) lighting, new textures/interface, and reworked freeware/past routes as built-ins??
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I want to stress that I'm not attempting to be negative, just realistic. I'm glad Trainz exists, especially as a user who spends most of my time in Surveyor as the competitors are currently failing in this regard. Really happy built-ins/dlc will be editable this go-round. That's definitely a plus.
Really...is that the best you can do. Get a life.
Tony_Hilliam
Trainz Plus - enjoy Trainz from just 20 cents a da
It's certainly good to see constructive discussion taking place among our passionate fans (and for the flames to die down). 
For your interest, the Gold memberships are still running ahead of the store purchases (in number of customers) so the new option appears to be popular with more people than not at this early stage (has it really only been a week?).
Also fyi, I have no idea where the $6m figure came from either, but it isn't close.
For your interest, the Gold memberships are still running ahead of the store purchases (in number of customers) so the new option appears to be popular with more people than not at this early stage (has it really only been a week?).
Also fyi, I have no idea where the $6m figure came from either, but it isn't close.
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Yeah, i spend too much time criticizing Trainz to come up with better forum posts. Sorry that you're disappointed.
Glad to hear TRS19 is selling well.