Tram Gradients

rockster

New member
Hi, i know that with trains gradients shouldnt be too great 2-3% maximum, but could anybody please tell me what is acceptable for a tram.

cheers

Gav
 
Hi rockster
Interesting question though possibly best answered by those that live in San Francisco

Edit If a tramcar has to clime gradients of more than 8% it is necessary to motorise all axles, trams with all bogies motorised are extremely unusual and very expensive both the purchase and maintain

Bob V
 
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In the days when Sydney had a tram system there was a line (one of the Balmain lines???) where a counterweight would be attached to the trams to allow them to climb and descend a hill. I do not know the size of the grade involved.
 
Hi rockster
Interesting question though possibly best answered by those that live in San Francisco

Edit If a tramcar has to clime gradients of more than 8% it is necessary to motorise all axles, trams with all bogies motorised are extremely unusual and very expensive both the purchase and maintain

Bob V

However, Silversmith's trams will make almost any kind of gradient you provide for them, and at some speed :D (I reskinned one, and added Bloodnok's max speed tag to combat this).
 
Just a passing eneral point trackplate. I think you may be confusing San Francisco's cable cars which do go up high gradients with normal trams. The city however does have trams but as far as I know they don't do anything like the cable cars.
 
I would suggest that to use the lower end of the argument, as trams had much less power than locos, and 2% seems reasonable. Bobbie could confirm the 'steepest' gradient of probably the largest tram set of routes.

BTW Bobbie, I am getting some G & E Railway stock together (from the old days), so maybe we will meet up between Glasgie and 'the Posh end' LOL.
 
Hi rockster
Interesting question though possibly best answered by those that live in San Francisco

Edit If a tramcar has to clime gradients of more than 8% it is necessary to motorise all axles, trams with all bogies motorised are extremely unusual and very expensive both the purchase and maintain

Bob V

It´s probably very different depending on where you live, but in Sweden I think every tram has had all bogies motorised for the last 25 years or so.
They are very powerful and never get stuck in snow for example. The problems at wintertime are the junctions that despite electrical heating often freeze.

Håkan
 
Tramway Gradients, London Transport ..............

............and London County Council Tramways.

Hi,
Perhaps of interest is this link to a site with some facts about the London Tramway tunnel northern access ramp.
Apparantly the ramp was 1 in 10 and double deck bogey tramcars with maximum traction trucks (E1 and E3) and those with equal wheel, four motor (HR2 ="Hilly Route") trucks were in use.
The second picture shows a tram "diving into the depths" at an interesting angle!
This experience must have been quite thrilling as the approach to the entrance was from a "blind" right angle turn and passengers on the top deck in particular would, no doubt, been quite surprised as to what had happened to the horizon!
Exiting from the tunnel was to a junction which was traffic light controlled but gave no priority to the trams which could be required to stop on the ramp. The skills of the driver were required here to prevent roll-back on the "hill start" and following trams were not allowed to start up the ramp until the preceeding one had cleared the junction.

http://underground-history.co.uk/kwupass.php

I have also provided a link to a site that gives quite a lengthy download of some BBC footage of London's Last Tram Week.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/july/6/newsid_2963000/2963092.stm


Regards, Alan
 
Hi Gav,

I suspect your question pertains more in regard to simulated trams in TRAINZ rather than actual prototypes.
Quite apart from prototypical allowable gradients, the manner in which tram models in TRAINZ perform on inclines and declines, depends entirely on the engine specifications determined by the creator.
It has been my experience with layouts containing topography, that the manner in which trams perform under AI control is quite different from when the trams are operated in CAB mode. I have spent many hours modifying engine specs of my creations with the aim of determining figures that give the optimum performance for both CAB and DCC mode. Despite this quest, if the gradients are too great, AI and DCC will work for most cases, but cars in CAB mode tend to struggle starting on inclines and fail to stop on declines.
One of the best routebuilders to whom to speak on the topic of tram layouts is NormP. I will draw his attention to this thread. I am sure he will be able to quote you actual figures.

Cheers
Sel
 
The tram in Gemunden (Austria) claims to have the steepest gradiant (10%). It is a normal tram, no cable car.
In Germany the gradiants of modern interurban trams (Stadtbahn) are limited to 4%.
One of our most modern tramcars in Cologne (the K4500) can climb up to 6%.
I hope this will help.

Cheers
Oskar
 
hi thanks for all the replies, they have been a lot of help, the london tram pic settled it, mine is nowhere near that steep, i'm busy trying to recreate 'Beamish Museum' here in the north east of england it is quite small with the entrance up a hill, when trying to match the track to the DEM terrain the grades seemed steep, my steepest grade is about 5% seen here in the pics.

beamishclimbpb4.jpg


beamishclimb2if7.jpg


cheers

Gav
 
Wot Gradient Gav?:D

If that pimple near the building in the screen shots is the greatest grade you will have to encounter, you'll be laughing.

Now, what's your next problem?:D

Cheers
Sel
 
Here in Glasgow under the former tramway system, the City Council avoided any too distinctive gradients where it could. One city centre terminus in St Vincent Street (a main thoroughfare) had a steep top to it and the line stopped half way up. I think around 4% is getting near the point if a bit of realism is to be got.

Hey Paul, good to hear from you. Will be in touch soon.I had a major prob with my Glasgow tram system build on the 2nd pc where my tramway is which has knocked me back some time having to restore some stuff.

For tram fans I still have a tram simsite at www.tramwaysim.moonfruit.com
It will be delayed catching up due to the replacing of a large number of items.

Bobby (Glasgow tram nut)
 
About the steepest grade an adhesion railroad can handle is 4-6%. Cog trains can handle up to 48% (Mt. Pilatus Railway in Lucern Switzerland). Of course, you can go up to 90% but we usually call them elevators :p

Bob
 
Gav.
With only 5% gradient to contend with, you should not have too much trouble.
Brisbane with very hilly suburbs,had trams until 1969;Not too sure about the gradients on the northern suburbs I know that Paddington and Red Hill are very steep and would easy top the 10% mark.
I am doing the southern suburbs and have one line that peaks at 10% and about 3/or 4 others that are 8%.generaly the rest of the lines vary from 2% up to 6% in other words about 70% of the lines are on hills.
One of the big problems with steep grades (apart from the problems with Trams that motorman mentioned ) is placing tram stops (andio's Type of stops) is that they need to be on level track and if you place one on a grade they make a "step" on the tracks so it is best to place them at the foot of the hill (and not too close)otherwise big trouble stopping trams from overshooting.
Some one mentioned Cable cars on San Fransisco hills, well they have up to 19.5% on one hill and about 4 with up to 14% (Please don't quote me as accurate)and because they are held (and propelled) by cable they are limited to 9 miles per hour both up and down hills.
Now that will be a challenge for our GMax whizz's when they make cable cars (any takers ?)as I have done the tracks on a dem map (made by fishlipsatwork)This route is on the backburner until I finish doing other WIP.
Cheers Norm.
 
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