Trainz "Next" is announced...

clam1952 said:
You might notice however that I did not think it was a good idea. ;)
Click to expand...

I did notice. :)

Though having been involved at the time with a collaborative project did put me in favor of it.

Like everything else, the devil will be in the details. I'm not fretting over it, nor sitting in the corner wringing my hands in despair as this new fangled version of Surveyor is lurking around the corner. :D

John
 
Tane NOW is not 10010% working right and now you are saying "LETS BUILD A TANE NEXT"
Lets get Tane NOW working right with 0 BUGS and to a point where I can download from JOINTED RAIL straight in to Tane
without going through 10.000 steps to do it
I bought a BRAND NEW COMPUTER just so I could run Tane I was looking forward to Dumping TRAINZ2012 and have Heeeeeeeeps of fun just using Tane
Well I was LET DOWN and now Tane sits on the shelve gathering dust and I am back to using Trainz 2012
So I am sorry but I say NAY NAY to TRAINZ NEXT PLEASE PLEASE just work on Fixing and up grading Tane Now

Chris Sullivan
OTAGO
NEW ZEALAND
 
Chris,

All of these issues have been thrashed out endlessly in this thread, other threads in this forum and in other forums. The reality of the software development industry today makes all of your wish list an impossibility (if any of it was ever possible).

N3V is a business, and like all businesses it has to pay wages and bills. None of those would be paid (and there would be no staff to do the work) if they spent all of their time providing free updates, SPs and fixes or developing your desired TANE with zero bugs. Trainz 2012, which you have returned to, is also "full of bugs", as is every version of Trainz that has been released. Incidentally, I fired up my copy of Trainz 2012 the other day, and before it even started, I rediscovered why I now prefer TANE.

If Microsoft, Apple and Adobe cannot achieve your desired product performance standards with their software, then what hope does a small niche games developer like N3V have.

Sorry to disillusion you, but that is the reality of software development.
 
No, we can't have zero bugs, that is correct. What we CAN have are zero GAME BREAKING bugs.

The reality of software development is that if a company tries to pull anything like this recent stunt, the customers start leaving. It's happened with EA, Ubisoft, and even Auran. It doesn't work, and if N3V keeps this arrogant attitude, people are going to start voting with their feet. Here is the REAL simple fact of software development, and business in general: the customers employ the business. If the customers do not like what the business has to offer, then they do not have to "hire" them (buy their product). In a case like this, where some try and spin the facts, manipulate polls, and shout down dissenters, people are going to voice their concerns regardless of what the company does.

Sorry to disillusion you, but people aren't happy in the slightest.
 
Indeed, a program can have bugs... but bugs that break the function of the program are not tolerated.

People CAN and DO vote with their wallets..... N3V is a business, not a charity, that means they develop and sell a product. Its like any other product out on the market.... If it is a good product, people will buy it.. if not the word gets around that it isn't worth spending your money on it and it will disappear into the sands of time.

What some people are mistakenly thinking is that people have no where to go other than TRAINZ.... that is fallacy.

An old saying in the Satellite industry is" You are only as good as your last uplink". I think that is food for thought for a lot of people.
 
Jacksonbarno,

Some people aren't happy, and some aren't happy that everyone else isn't as unhappy as they are!

The only arrogant attitudes I see are coming from the latter group. Likewise the only "shouting down" of "dissenters" I see is coming from the same individuals. If you are so unhappy, as you clearly seem to be, why don't you "vote with your feet" and go elsewhere? (sorry moderators, that may have been a bit too harsh - I will retract it).

Auran's past problem were caused by a game they released called "Fury". The game was not bug ridden with game breakers (as far as I know), it was simply outdated and outclassed by the competition before it was even released. A former senior executive of Auran wrote an academic paper on the social causes of that disaster. N3V, it seems, are doing everything they can NOT to repeat the same mistakes.

I for one, are happier with T:ANE than I am with TS12. Sorry if that disillusions you.
 
pware said:
If Microsoft, Apple and Adobe cannot achieve your desired product performance standards with their software, then what hope does a small niche games developer like N3V have.
Click to expand...

Except they do. In fact these 3 companies achieve such high performance standards that I've made a decent wage using their products. Even if they didn't, using "they're rubbish so I can be rubbish too" is a horrid excuse - I'd hate to do business with someone with such a mindset.

As for arrogance, yes there are a few highly annoying chaps from the "dislike TANE" camp but personally, I'm too tired to care any more. Like Ish said, wait and see. Whatever happens to the company and franchise is really up to Tony and nobody else.
 
geophil said:
I'm not quite sure what you are waiting for. The N3V announcement couldn't have been any clearer:

  1. There will be a subscription model. To use it you have to pay for it.
  2. In return you get a multiplayer Surveyor, based on online services.

These are fundamental statements and they don't need any more detail to form your own opinion.

The Trainz users were invited to comment on that announcement, that's the idea of the whole thread, isn't it?

Now, do we want a subscription model? My conclusion from the majority of postings here: No, we don't.

Do we want a multiplayer Surveyor? Here indeed, not everybody may be able to come up with sound arguments, pro or con. But those who have hands-on experience in team projects can (organizational/management side). And those who understand distributed applications (IT lingo) can as well (technical/implementation side). And again, I can't find the envisaged enthusiasm for this either, having read almost all of the on-topic postings.
Click to expand...

is a
@geophil: this is a good, bare-bones summary.

Well spaken.
 
Maybe more, real and local content? Like, bring back the Mojave route... or something new:

L654JHD.jpg
 
Apology and humble pie!

It seems that I had misread the announcements concerning the NEXT Multiuser Surveyor announcements and some of N3Vs posts in these forums. My apologies, especially to Boc61 whom I criticised for his post claiming that the multiuser model was only for those with a subscription. In my defence, as weak as it is, I was referring to Windwlkrs post that mentioned "online community", not "subscribers", but I should have gone back to the source.

After reading the post by Geophil which was reposted by Saieditor above, I went back to the source and checked.

In the Q&A section of the original N3V announcement I found the following ...

Q. Will I be able to purchase rather than subscribe?
A. The multiplayer surveyor aspect will be based upon a monthly subscription model. Other versions of Trainz will be available for purchase, and other subscription options may be available to provide extra value to subscribers.

So, it seems, multiplayer or multiuser Surveyor will only be available to subscribers. In the 15+ years I have used Trainz I have only ever worked on two collaborative projects (2014 and 2015). They would probably not be enough to convince me to subscribe just to get multiuser Surveyor but, as I have stated before, my decision will depend on pricing and what they are offering to subscribers. I currently have ZERO subscription software on my system, so I would have to be convinced.

Now, I only hope that I get to choose the sauce that goes on the "humble pie"!
 
maruffijd said:
Rather than edit my post from earlier, I'll just add a fresh thought.

Having followed this thread from the get go, I will say that because it's the end user/consumer point of view that spins thoughts about these features. I'm going to bite the crow and say I may have commented too soon in being apprehensive about it. My current stand will change to "riding the fence listening to both sides and actually making informed decision when the day arrives" vs being a premature @$$ in my decision and shooting my opinion without enough proper facts.

Let's just see where this really goes from here.
Click to expand...

pware said:
It seems that I had misread the announcements concerning the NEXT Multiuser Surveyor announcements and some of N3Vs posts in these forums. My apologies, especially to Boc61 whom I criticised for his post claiming that the multiuser model was only for those with a subscription. In my defence, as weak as it is, I was referring to Windwlkrs post that mentioned "online community", not "subscribers", but I should have gone back to the source.

After reading the post by Geophil which was reposted by Saieditor above, I went back to the source and checked.

In the Q&A section of the original N3V announcement I found the following ...

Q. Will I be able to purchase rather than subscribe?
A. The multiplayer surveyor aspect will be based upon a monthly subscription model. Other versions of Trainz will be available for purchase, and other subscription options may be available to provide extra value to subscribers.

So, it seems, multiplayer or multiuser Surveyor will only be available to subscribers. In the 15+ years I have used Trainz I have only ever worked on two collaborative projects (2014 and 2015). They would probably not be enough to convince me to subscribe just to get multiuser Surveyor but, as I have stated before, my decision will depend on pricing and what they are offering to subscribers. I currently have ZERO subscription software on my system, so I would have to be convinced.

Now, I only hope that I get to choose the sauce that goes on the "humble pie"!
Click to expand...
Got any suggestions for topping crow?
 
JCitron said:
We might want to have a look at this thread here from the Suggestion Boxcar forum. :)

http://forums.auran.com/trainz/showthread.php?112946-Multiplayer-surveyor&highlight=multi-user

We thought it was a good idea back then. How times have changed...?

John
Click to expand...

Hi John, sir ..

That's a great fine!!!

---------------------------------------------------


To all, always remember ... it's always how to make the game more fun, and if multiplayer surveyor accomplishes that, then who are we to say, otherwise! ...

Of course, time will tell how it pans out at the end! Then we can decide ... to jump onboard, or not!

All in all, I've put this matter to rest! :wave:

Take Care John -- community

Ish
 
pware said:
Auran's past problem were caused by a game they released called "Fury". The game was not bug ridden with game breakers (as far as I know), it was simply outdated and outclassed by the competition before it was even released. A former senior executive of Auran wrote an academic paper on the social causes of that disaster. N3V, it seems, are doing everything they can NOT to repeat the same mistakes.
Click to expand...

Hello there, sir

Wow, you're one of few that knows the story of yesteryear --- Auran when into bankruptcy, and trainz with it, until Tony stepped in with his pockets, and took control of trainz ... re-structure the company which is call N3V, kept Chris around, etc ... and here we are ... LOL

Expressing oour opinions about the Trainz "Next" like it's the end of the world! :hehe: LOL

Kind Regards
Ish
 
ish6 said:
and if multiplayer surveyor accomplishes that, then who are we to say, otherwise! ...
Click to expand...
The important word seems "if".

In a proper IT project you first analyze the "problem", often taking the "use case" approach (UML world). If we describe the "problem" as "facilitate route development in a team" we wouldn't start with suggesting a specific implementation, or even come up with a system architecture for the solution. Instead, we would investigate how teams actually cooperate, in Trainz route building and also - quite important - in related fields. The latter to protect us from reinventing the wheel. We would also analyze the significance of the overall "problem". (Software developers hate this phase. They want to start hacking code right away, not accepting the bigger picture.)

N3V may have done all that analysis. And they don't have to tell us whether they did. But at least the few of us here, who are familiar with the task in question, will regard this multiplayer Surveyor idea as rather strange.

Again I suggest to look elsewhere. How have development teams achieved success? What has been their workflow? Did they use tools? Which tools and how?

What sprang to my mind when reading that announcement: Things would become somewhat easier if Trainz supported proper route modularization. This would enable route builders to work independently on their particular module without interfering with each other. Trainz has some sort of original background in model railways. A model railway community called FREMO has created a rather popular module concept: https://www.fremo-net.eu/en/home/
One could learn from that for virtual railways. That's what they did for the German train simulator "Zusi 3". Trainz Surveyor has a basic merge function to combine modules. Unfortunately, merging is always final. Once the modules have been combined, they can't be separated again. If merging was temporary, route builders could proceed the way they prefer to work - as expressed in a few postings in this thread -, on their own for their own module, unharmed by other people. Temporary merging would allow to shape matching module borders. In FREMO, module borders have to comply with the standard, so modules can be built without knowing about any other module. With Trainz route modules things can be simpler. The first module would define the border to the second module. Once that is clear and done, both modules can follow their own path.

However, I have the feeling the revenue aspects may have supplanted technical reasoning. If that's the case, all our comments will be written in vain, I'm afraid.
 
geophil said:
What sprang to my mind when reading that announcement: Things would become somewhat easier if Trainz supported proper route modularization. This would enable route builders to work independently on their particular module without interfering with each other. Trainz has some sort of original background in model railways. A model railway community called FREMO has created a rather popular module concept: https://www.fremo-net.eu/en/home/
One could learn from that for virtual railways. That's what they did for the German train simulator "Zusi 3". Trainz Surveyor has a basic merge function to combine modules. Unfortunately, merging is always final. Once the modules have been combined, they can't be separated again. If merging was temporary, route builders could proceed the way they prefer to work - as expressed in a few postings in this thread -, on their own for their own module, unharmed by other people. Temporary merging would allow to shape matching module borders. In FREMO, module borders have to comply with the standard, so modules can be built without knowing about any other module. With Trainz route modules things can be simpler. The first module would define the border to the second module. Once that is clear and done, both modules can follow their own path.

However, I have the feeling the revenue aspects may have supplanted technical reasoning. If that's the case, all our comments will be written in vain, I'm afraid.
Click to expand...

Hello there, sir ...

This above is very interesting, and yes, I know you've mentioned it in earlier posts; But now it's expressed in more detail!

Well, maybe after Trainz Next, N3V shoud look deep into your suggestion here! It's well-thought out, and it does allow for one's imagination to grow ... I have always beena a fan of modules, just glance at my banner, LOL ... However, I call them Provinces! :hehe:

As for your last sentence, that's been the case around these forums for years ... Even Tony has said many times that their resources are limited!

Kind Regards
Ish
 
So this is the next Circus. And hidden away in General Trainz too. No wonder the TANE thread is deserted. Probably time to move it down among the past releases, like 2009,2010,Tr12, and let's have the new thread and so on with the Showwww!

My feeling is that this is going to fall flat on its face. Why? The same TANE routine is being used, but there is not a single focus. Everyone wanted sunlit graphics; there is nothing in NEXT that everyone wants. Me? I can barely stomach TANE; I can imagine just how crass NEXT will be...
 
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