Trainz-build numbers below 3.7 are no longer supported....

Speaking for myself, I will carry on creating in Trainz, but, unless N3V restore support to builds 3.5 and 3.6, as per their life-cycle policy, I will not be uploading any further items to the Download Station, even once I have TANE, as I have no wish to support their commercial model with my time and effort. I will, however, continue to upload via third party sites.

I'm sad it's come to this. :(

Paul
 
If anyone's having a temper tantrum, it's folks who are happy to force unwanted, unexpected, counterproductive changes on the rest of us and expect us to be fine with it, especially in violation of the Lifecycle Policy (support agreement).

I guess we are all supposed to sit around the campfire and sing Kumbaya and wait for the bright new sunrise that is TANE.... that what has happened up to this point is ok and people are just over reacting and will fall in line..I have dibs on one of the drums for the drum circle.
 
If anyone's having a temper tantrum, it's folks who are happy to force unwanted, unexpected, counterproductive changes on the rest of us and expect us to be fine with it, especially in violation of the Lifecycle Policy (support agreement). As for people "leaving" Trainz, the problem isn't so much content creators leaving entirely, but more and more, the ones who stay seem to be moving their stuff to third-party sites, where it's vulnerable to disappearance. Generally, the better-quality stuff, at that. For many of us, keeping our content to ourselves is looking more and more like a viable option too.

So very true.

There's a simple way that could keep trainzers happy and generate revenue for N3V, but why share it when they don't give a darn what the community thinks.
 
I guess we are all supposed to sit around the campfire and sing Kumbaya and wait for the bright new sunrise that is TANE.... that what has happened up to this point is ok and people are just over reacting and will fall in line..I have dibs on one of the drums for the drum circle.

So very true.

There's a simple way that could keep trainzers happy and generate revenue for N3V, but why share it when they don't give a darn what the community thinks.

Well time for more thoughts on this... and for those not interested, you can skip as it might be a book or two. :)

We've all heard the phrase to cut off our noses in spite of our face. This is a case of nose cutting wile putting eggs in one basket and hoping to make it big at the same time.

They seem to forget that the community is also some of their biggest sales people as well. Word of mouth sales are sometimes a lot larger than what the web can produce alone. Let's face it, we have Trainz and tell a fellow rail enthusiast about it. The next thing we know, he's now on their website here buying a copy plus add-ons and even a FCT. This might not sound like much but add that up over many, many users and this is a good chunk of revenue for N3V. I can say that even I have done that myself while out chasing storms a few years ago. As usual I ran into more than a few railfans on my long van rides. It's funny how many storm chasers are also rail fans. I suppose this is because we sit so long in a van and pass so many railroads and trains, it's got to rub off. :)

Anyway, there were two fellow chasers from Ireland that I remember well. One ordered a boxed copy of TRS2009 and had it shipped to his home address that night after we talked about Trainz in the van. As we traveled, I found out that John's dad worked for the GWR as a fireman, and his grand dad had some other position with the railroad. This gentleman is not young by any means, and when he saw the website and screen shots I showed him, his eyes lit up. It's this joy that the product can bring to people is what makes it so great. This has happened more than once in the many years since I've purchased the program back in December 2003.

Now this also brings up another thing. Why does the program have to become so Geeky? I mean seriously, folks at N3V. Not everyone is technically inclined here. Trainz used to be a fun program for train enthusiasts to use. Many people are older, or very much younger. Not all can afford the latest and greatest hardware, or have the capabilities to write scripts, and fiddle with config.txt files, or fix content and search for dependencies. All they want to do is play with their trains in Trainz just like they did when they once had the space for their model railroads, or once were railway engineers and could drive a real train. Even then, I'm sure even with the checking and complexity that involves, it wasn't the constant fiddling we see today. With every build increase, the amount of fiddling seems to increase exponentially. This is one area where I feel things definitely need improving and subject of another book...

To be honest, no other program is like this that I use. Even Microsoft Windows doesn't need this kind of attention, and Windows 10 has even made its attention less than it was under Windows 7 and Windows 8. Even their worst OS, Vista wasn't like this, and neither was Windows NT 4.0 which had a reputation of crashing if you looked at it wrong. Things just work because they can. There's not fuzting and poking to manipulate things into place.

The problem too is people get tired of this fixing and fiddling. I know I sure am. I look at TANE coming out and I feel myself getting tired mentally and physically. I like many here went through this before as we moved from TRS2004 to TRS2006, then to TS2009 on up the line. Needing to fix content and fiddling gets old. As I'm typing this, I wonder how many longtimers here are going to feel its time to walk away as they too are tired of fixing stuff. With this sudden shift in version jumps without notice, the angst meter went from a flicker to a full peg in the red zone well beyond the measured values!

We need to revisit this and perhaps put the brakes on the constant versioning by letting the older versions remain active a bit longer. I don't think it will hurt sales any because new people will be purchasing the new versions, however, there will still be the older user-base that can't afford to upgrade or don't have the machines to run the latest version, still in the loop until that someday comes that they can. It's a win-win for all, and it's not putting everything in one basket and hoping that all the sales come in for that while forgetting who helped grow and keep the product active for this length of time.

Anyway, enough of this for now. We all have better stuff to do and hopefully the word from management will be to leave things as they are for now.

John
 
Actually, I think you will see less and less content going to the dls and more and more going to 3rd party sites.

Which can only be a good thing. No more 100MB daily limits, no more artificial speed throttling, no more intrusive advertising, sites specialising in specific areas of interest, sensible bundling of associated assets, effective search engine, etc etc.
 
Other simulators keep getting mentioned, so I felt it prudent to mention a few things....
SNIP

Actually quite a good summary Falcus and kind of mirrors why, despite all the issues, I keep coming back to Trainz to actually attempt some route building.

As I've mentioned previously, RW-TS is graphically excellent but that has come at the price of the freeware route builder simply being unable to compete with the resources DTG and their associates have available. They also suffer from version change with the annual update or sudden patches likely to unravel your painstaking work.

Open Rails is good (up to a point) for driving trains, but a "new" route editor has got to be years off. The old MSTS RE was pretty evil to work with back in the day and now it's so flakey on modern hardware/OS as I'm currently finding, it just doesn't seem worth the effort. Kudos to the few hardy souls who are still using it successfully.

BVE/OpenBVE seems to have largely sunk in the West at any rate and Zusi 3 approaching the 10th anniversary of the longest ever announced vapourware.

Run 8 seems to be the preserve of a control freak developer(s) and antagonist "keyboard warrior" type end user and multiplayer is not for everyone.

Which means Trainz is, like it or not, still the best option.
 
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What a great note to jump in on - thanks for your words Vern! Hopefully with the new era beginning officially in just over two weeks we will be "on track" to be bigger and better than every before.

Which leads me to linking this rather lengthy post I have made in the articles section addressing your concerns and announcing a roll back to 3.5.

I know not everyone will be happy, others will be jumping up and down with joy and others will moan even thought secretly, deep down they love Trainz and N3V ;)

Please forgive me for not repsonding to all your comments directly but we have a pretty important deadline looming and this has taken lots of time out of the schedule - BUT, it is an important issue to address as three is one thing we all agree on - 3rd party content creators are the life blood of Trainz!
 
...Next around please inform us, contents creators of any significant changes so we can be ready for them, and not pull the rug out from under our feet all of a sudden !

Well said Ish, information, information !

Another idea would be to discuss planned changes with user representatives and take into account the feedback, hopefully then avoiding this sort of mess.

Chris
 
..Snipped..

Thanks. I have been around this hobby awhile. I remember ElvasTower (Still around I think, though I visit only once in a blue moon now).

As far as best option, Thats in the eye of the beholder. Some people like spending 2 Hours imitating a real train crew just to get wheels rolling, and I've heard Run8 has done "Some" to eliminate the crazy super high detail operational requirements (But not much). MSTS RE.... Boy that brings back memories, can't say I'm really fond of them though..... Its still evil to work with. Like AutoCad from 15 years+ Years ago.....

BVE to my mind was always a non-entity... I mean, I've heard all kinds of people that love it sing its praises, but honestly subways aren't my thing. I know they tried to branch out, but I was never that impressed with what I saw.... I did download it and toy with it briefly, but the UI I found cumbersome and un-intuitive (This was years ago, so I have no idea what the specific UI controls are like now).

Zusi3 is a new one to me. But if its vaporware that would probably be why.

At the end of the day, I like the options that Trainz brings to the table.... And I like where Tane is going. No its not perfect, it probably never will be, but its better then TS12, and brings all the major functionality of previous Trainz to the table from what I'm seeing of almost 2 weeks now of messing with it. I loaded up K&L's 614 onto the default Season Town, and I felt like I was watching a Pentrex movie..... I'm waiting for them to fix the Screenshot issue so I can share more, but I made myself take this tonight:

047cd62a77bf5d996bc4a075b233900f.jpg

I took others that I'll keep out of this thread, but Dynamic Shadows (Lighting really, but SHADOWS!)! whats not to like about that? Further more, we're getting Particle Collision (Exhaust no long just magically floats through Objects), and the Rendering is so much better.... Are there glitches? Sure... Have a look at that tender, notice the apparently Welded Open Water Tank Lid? But the little things can be fixed as time goes on. I heard yet another horror story earlier this evening about a previous Build Revision where one of our old hands spent IDK how long fixing some 160,000 assets.... I'm now over 30K assets into Tane, and though yes I have been fixing some, I'm still under 3K Faulty.... And again alot of it is the same simple stupid 3 errors....

Anyway, probably qualifies as a book now, but regardless, point being, Trainz ain't the only game in town, and theres definitely people that like the others, but I think Trainz is pretty good, and I'd wager anyone else thats still reading this post thought so too at some recent point or ya'll wouldn't be here....

-Falcus
 
I bet those who said it was a waste of time complaining feel a bit silly now.

Congratulations to N3V for having the gumption to admit it had thrown the wrong switch.

Now, where's MacTANE?
 
I bet those who said it was a waste of time complaining feel a bit silly now.
I hope those that did complain now begin taking steps to get their content up-to-date before Sept 2016 when once again it will be cut off. At least now (once the old versions have been cleaned out), the DLC will have decent modern assets on it that work without looking they were made in the 80's.

Cant say there wasn't enough warning next time.
 
First off, I want to say well done to Tony for at least stepping up and dealing with this.

There are many points I'd like to comment on, but I'll leave most of them to those who are personally affected by them.
But all in all, a good decision by N3V, and a good sign.
The 3 month warning is a very good idea.

But I will make a comment on this point:

"Subject to the success of T:ANE (which we believe will soon become the must-have version of Trainz) we will be concentrating our efforts on increasing support for the content creators community. For T:ANE we have been working closely with a fairly small group of people who have done a fantastic job, but even then our two full time content guys weren’t able to handle that load."

I do hope that's more than marketing and reassurance.
I have heard it before.
The worrying part for me is the "...
we have been working closely with a fairly small group of people..."
I understand why this is the case, but it's what happens after the product is released that needs to change.

From my several years as a Beta tester, it was very difficult to get information from you guys concerning scripting and assets, yet those who were payware creators in the Beta team definitely got the info when requested.
I'm not going to go into any details obviously, even though my last NDA ran out several years ago, but one person in particular who was a payware author and beta tester, only ever turned up when they needed information on something, and posted very few bugs in the tracker (less than a dozen, if I remember correctly), while the rest of us constantly tried to flush the bugs out of the game.

It was in fact, the very reason I stopped beta testing when I did.
And there were at least 3 beta testers/content creators who where guilty of this.
Only there for their own gain.
Incidentally, none of those users are around now, which I find quite amusing.

My point is that I sort of see that situation arising again, and if it is the case, then I want no part of it.
And from posts in this and other threads, the lack of information in some areas is what is causing people to think that freeware creators are no longer wanted or needed.
I'm going to take a lot of convincing, because words are cheap, and I've seen it before.
The wiki is a good start.
But this time around, it needs to be finished.
Way too many holes, and too much guesswork.

To put it bluntly, it should be no information for anyone, or all information for everyone.
It's your ball. Just depends on whether you want ALL of us to play or not.

Brian.
 
I totally agree Brian - the more people that we can help the better. The reference to the last 18 mths work for the built in routes has been more about the actual route construction/session creation/object replacement than "general content creation". There is a huge task ahead of us and I hope we can soon expand the team to provide more dedicated resources for everyone
 
While this is a great move, and this certainly suggests that N3V cares about the community, I do see the issue of this cropping up again with T:ANE, since that product will be subject to the 'latest build'. When I pledged to KickStarter and pre-ordered my T:ANE, it was with the current Lifecycle Policy (Support Agreement) in place; very likely, I would not have if there was a requirement to use the latest patch, since we all know patches can create more problems than they solve. This is why you have to get this stuff written down BEFORE releasing a product, not after. Not trying to be a downer, and, who knows, the patches to T:ANE might not be so bad, but it's worth pointing out now the legal and ethical commitments made on a product that has already been put out for sale, and purchased. Just a head's up here.

At any rate, thanks to Tony and the team.
 
Now this also brings up another thing. Why does the program have to become so Geeky? I mean seriously, folks at N3V. Not everyone is technically inclined here. Trainz used to be a fun program for train enthusiasts to use. Many people are older, or very much younger. Not all can afford the latest and greatest hardware, or have the capabilities to write scripts, and fiddle with config.txt files, or fix content and search for dependencies. All they want to do is play with their trains in Trainz just like they did when they once had the space for their model railroads, or once were railway engineers and could drive a real train. Even then, I'm sure even with the checking and complexity that involves, it wasn't the constant fiddling we see today. With every build increase, the amount of fiddling seems to increase exponentially. This is one area where I feel things definitely need improving and subject of another book...

That would be a book worth reading. I am the perfect example. "Computer Stuff" bores me, I know what I know about them out of necessity and sheer osmosis, but otherwise I don't give a flip about how or why they work, I don't like tinkering with them, even though it's relatively easy to build your own, I would never consider it and rather pay someone to do it for me. Kind of like my car, other than putting gas in it, I let my mechanic do everything else.

I started with Trainz 04. Of course things were simpler then, the major chore was hunting down dependencies. I stepped away from Trainz for quite awhile right as 06 was coming out, for a number of reasons and didn't come back until I got TS 12. A lot of great changes for sure, but along with the accustomed to dependency hunt I was now confronted with all sorts of errors and bugaboos that needed fixing. I spent a lot of time learning to fix some, which is good, but it became a case of weighing "do I really want/need this" or just trashing it. As I said, I don't like tinkering, fiddling and fixing. I don't even really care that much about driving the trains myself, when I do it's always DCC mode, I generally prefer to let the AI do it and sit back and watch. (My annoyance with needing rules, trackmarks and other assorted gizmos could be another book.)

I think standards for content creation are a good thing and there should be error checking and all, but the current way things are setup can be very frustrating for a plug and play guy like myself.

Also, good job Tony and everyone else down there for reconsidering your initial decision.
 
While this is a great move, and this certainly suggests that N3V cares about the community, I do see the issue of this cropping up again with T:ANE, since that product will be subject to the 'latest build'. When I pledged to KickStarter and pre-ordered my T:ANE, it was with the current Lifecycle Policy (Support Agreement) in place; very likely, I would not have if there was a requirement to use the latest patch, since we all know patches can create more problems than they solve. This is why you have to get this stuff written down BEFORE releasing a product, not after. Not trying to be a downer, and, who knows, the patches to T:ANE might not be so bad, but it's worth pointing out now the legal and ethical commitments made on a product that has already been put out for sale, and purchased. Just a head's up here.

At any rate, thanks to Tony and the team.

And if you strike a bug, and we say that it's fixed in a patch that you refuse to install, we will refuse to help. Why? Because we have fixed it, you just refuse to use the fix...

And yes, on the helpdesk, we DO strike this exact issue, although less often now that the digital download editions get updated to include the latest updates. We've actually had this policy, at least as far as the helpdesk is concerned, for years (note, if it's not fixed in a SP, I will either look into the issue, or try to fix it; but if it's fixed in a SP or is likely to be resolved by updating, then you will be told to update), as in at least the 6 years I've been working on the helpdesk...

Regards
Zec
 
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