The Florida High Speed Rail Authority.... Dead or Alive???

[nikos1]

Enough with this high speed rail BS, before we try to get fancy we need a decent intercity rail system. We need to get it to the point where you can show up at the station and know there will be a train in the next hour or two.
In Britain i can go to any little station on the national network, Bearstead,UK for example and catch a train without having to know the timetable, however in my hometown, athens,ga, there is NO passenger rail whatsoever, the closest amtrak stop is in Gainesville, where i either have to be at the station at 8 AM (after a two hour drive) if i want to go south, or at 9 PM at night if i want to go north. Countrys like Britain (ok they have HS1 now) and Austria have no true high speed rail lines but they have a excellent intercity and local train network that does the job perfectly well. Tell the politicians to shove their fancy high speed rail plans up there....you know where, and instead demand a reliable network of intercity and local trains, you dont need to look any further than California to see.

 

[Isaacg]

you dont need to look any further than California to see.

Well, in 2020, Arnold Swz(I shortened it as I'm no good at spelling it) approved the routing for the Sacremento-San Francisco-Los Angeles-San Diego mainline construction to start in 2010, which by 2020, should be in revenue service. Then Amtrak will start Amtrak Florida Services in the State. I think it will take the same path... to see how popular the commuter rail took out. As its gained a LOT of popularity in California.

Isaac

 

[Tokkyu40]

I think in the long run the ridership will never justify the enormous cost of building the system. It will be a political boondoggle of the first order and an albatross around the necks of the Florida taxpayer.

Far better to re-introduce passenger service on the FEC from Miami to Jacksonville with a spur to Orlando from either Titusville or Port St. John. The ridership and rails are already in place.

Ben

P. S. I grew up in St. Petersburg and now live in Tequesta (a little north of West Palm Beach).

The ridership would justify the cost on 2 conditions.
1: The routes are placed to maximize traffic rather than political prestige.
2: The stations are used as revenue generating real estate and not revenue eating but very pretty loading zones.
Ideally, the stations and trains should each be attracting their own customer base which then uses the other half of the business. Like Tokyu store customers riding on Tokyu trains.
Will the FEC rails support 200 mph, or do they have to be pulled up and rebuilt anyway? You'll also need total grade separation and exclusive use. I think almost a third of Amtrack's problems are caused by not having their own track. Mostly it's just government stupidity.
I think there are probably a lot of advantages to using a pre-existing right of way.

Claude

 

[bendorsey]

Right-on nikos1!

Florida HS rail is just another plausable but impossible idea that has persisted far longer then the 30 seconds it should have received. It will never break even let alone make a profit. Its a political pork-barrel project of the first magnitude designed to line the pockets of a collection of quasi-crooks in Tallahassee with greedy friends.

For those of you who think I'm wrong - any Floridians remember the Cross-Florida Barge Canal idea? It persisted for close to 50 years. Never got built (tho parts of it did). It still gets mentioned by politicians now and then. showing they never learn from thier mistakes.

In Europe you can get within 2 or 3 blocks of just about anywhere via public transportation. Try that in the USA. Many years ago we gave up on the idea of mass public transportation in favor of the private automobile (and look where that has gotten us). Enjoy your $4.00 gas folks.

Ben

 

[Tokkyu40]

I am enjoying my $4 gas. It's been a long time since it was so cheap in California. (deep sigh)
High speed rail is important to intercity travel. The travel times have to be low enough to compete with air travel on a curb-to-curb basis. Even if it's a bit longer, the comfort and convenience of the train will have an advantage, but as the travel times increase, fewer people will be willing to take the extra time when travelling on business.

Claude

 

[bendorsey]

Originally the FEC was a 2-track line all the way from Jacksonville to Miami but the bridge in Stuart Florida across the St. Lucie River is single track with spring loaded switches to make the transition. Its quite long. Most other bridges only need the ties and rails replaced on one side. Its not all 2-track today but the right-of-way for the 2nd track is still there. I've heard rumors the FEC is thinking about restoring passenger service which is why I mentioned it (and its a good idea).

HS rail by its nature must be very isolated from the environment. By that I mean few or (ideally) no grade crossings. Can you imagine a 200 mph train hitting a loaded gasoline tanker? KABLOOEY! This happened a few years ago south of me. Considerable loss of life but the train didn't derail and it was a freight. Think about the consequences if it had been a passenger train at 200 mph. HS rail must be isolated and that cranks the cost up by several orders of magnitude.

The more stations you have the more revenue you generate but that slows the train down making all those stops. Result = not so HS rail, lol.

Don't get me wrong guys I'm not completely against the idea, I just don't think it will ever be worth the cost to taxpayers.

Ben

 

[Winterpaw]

Don't get me wrong guys I'm not completely against the idea, I just don't think it will ever be worth the cost to taxpayers.

right now, the very same taxpayers are strugging to just keep their homes. asking them to pay for a railsystem they cant afford to even use to go places they cant get around in is just asking for a down vote.

 

[bendorsey]

Hi Winterpaw:

Exactly!

Florida has a high percentage of retirees (self included) all of whom are on incomes fixed many years ago when they retired. Those incomes have not changed but everything else in thier lives has increased in cost. Far too many must choose between food, medicine, and house payments. They simply can not afford all 3 and some can't afford more then one. I live is a relativly small town (3500 I think) and I've heard over 300 houses are in some form of forclosure or reposession.

We do not need the expense of a HS rail system until the above situation is resolved (and don't even get me started about the disaster that our school systems have become).

Ben

 

[ish6]

I am enjoying my $4 gas. It's been a long time since it was so cheap in California. (deep sigh)
High speed rail is important to intercity travel. The travel times have to be low enough to compete with air travel on a curb-to-curb basis. Even if it's a bit longer, the comfort and convenience of the train will have an advantage, but as the travel times increase, fewer people will be willing to take the extra time when travelling on business.

Claude

Here in Central Florida it went down to $3.83 .... last year it was around $2.56 same time Claude!!

Ishie

 

[backyard]

It's my impression...

...that the current plan, is a inter-city plan.

Here's another news source to research, The Lakeland Ledger, from a town I grew up in.

 

[rjhowie]

Unfortunately ditching the trains in the USA a long time back in favour of the motor car has come back to haunt with a vengeance. Rail travel is booming in the UK and as a contributor has pointed out and as I have we are fortunate. Good Inter-City and suburban networks make a difference but you do not really have a proper Inter-City system and doesn't help in these times when alternatives are not really in place. Of course governments in such a matter will be reluctant to pput in money but agaiun unfortunately America let it's ralway go down the tubes on a national scale. Without even Amtrak it would have been even more dire.

Even here with a good railway lines are being re-opened both suburban, urban and rural. The third line between Glasgow and Edinburgh which is purely a local, stopping services have seen a raft of small towns vying to have their stations back! How many cities in the world can say they have 3 seperate rail tracks between them? Recently the line off from Hamilton was brought back into the Glasgow (electric) suburban system having been dead for 40 years has been so successful that the empty trackbed beyond to Stonehouse is being looked at again. It's an odd contrast betwen the two countries. In America virtually all the lines between towns are in the majority freight orientated with a small passneger bit. Here it is massively the other way round and with rail ridership the highest since post-WW2 years.

 

[Isaacg]

In Europe you can get within 2 or 3 blocks of just about anywhere via public transportation. Try that in the USA. Many years ago we gave up on the idea of mass public transportation in favor of the private automobile (and look where that has gotten us). Enjoy your $4.00 gas folks.

One thing. I've taken mass transit all my life, as I'm always against the car. I've seen a MASSIVE change in ridership in my locale, which is the reason why several new agencies are around, Including the Pinellas Mobility Initiative(Bus, Rail, Fixed Guideway, and Ferry).

Isaac

 

[bendorsey]

Hi Isaac:

I rarely drive car either. I ride motorcycles instead (but thats not your point I know).

Locally we have Tri-rail commuter service between Miami and Magnonia park (in West Palm Beach). Ridership is up a bunch but at the same time the state is cutting funding due to the economic situation (some folks just don't understand how to properly spend taxpayer money).

They recently restored all the second set of rails so tri-rail doesn't interfere with normal freight traffic. There has also been talk of extending it to Jupiter (Florida - not the planet, lol) and later perhaps even as far north as Stuart.

Ben

 

[strench707]

dOES Amtrak use tri-rails track or do they have to use CSX, that would really improve delays.

Davis

 

[Isaacg]

dOES Amtrak use tri-rails track or do they have to use CSX, that would really improve delays.

Davis

I think(correct me now, if I'm wrong), but Tri-Rail shares rails with the FEC? Amtrak has always shared rails with CSX in Florida, and CSX hates it with a passion. Sometimes I wish CSX would bug off!:hehe:

Isaac

 

[strench707]

Me too. However I did read in a Trains magazine from like spring or something that: CSX had a 1 track draw bridge in florida and 3-rail built a 2 track high bridge and allowed only amtrak and them to use it. That's what sparked the idea in my head that they might do that the whole way. Is FEC traffic as dense as CSX down there or not?

Davis

 

[Isaacg]

Me too. However I did read in a Trains magazine from like spring or something that: CSX had a 1 track draw bridge in florida and 3-rail built a 2 track high bridge and allowed only amtrak and them to use it. That's what sparked the idea in my head that they might do that the whole way. Is FEC traffic as dense as CSX down there or not?

Davis

I'm not exactly sure, as I'm from the Tampa Bay Metropolitan area(West Central Florida, if you will). I believe FEC is not as dense as CSX, yet Tampa has about 2 or 3 of CSX's major yards in their Florida divison: Yeoman Yards, Uceta Yards, and another one... it won't jog my memory.

Isaac

 

[backyard]

no, read closer...

The current Florida hubbub, is from Deland, to just southwest of Orlando, on CSX rights of way, with CSX picking up a cross Florida(north-south), connection to Tampa, from Taft.

CSX, wishes to increase intermodal traffic, J-ville to Tampa.

Search the Ledger, in my previous post...no doubt, CSX is trying to go non-public, in a state committed to the Sunshine Law, open public.

 

[strench707]

I lve it down there. I wish the sunset limited would restore services, then Amtrak would have there transcon train back. sigh.... Didn't it used to stop at sanford.

Davis

 

[backyard]

your down there, I'm up here...

The Sunset Limited, failed(as usual), from lack of interest...

It was a Jacksonville to whatever connection, after ridership declined.

Hurricane Kat bugled that through the Mississippi Delta, the future actually depends on demand....

The American people, can change anything if they wish...