Steam Compounding Question

This question is aimed at four cylinder, double expansion steam locomotives (mostly de Glehn and Mallet). After the steam went through the first set of cylinders, was there some sort of reservoir before the second set of cylinders, or did the steam go directly to the second set (in other words directly connected)? And if they were directly connected (via pipes), did the position of the drivers of the second set have to be "quartered" respectively to the first set, or did it not matter? (I would say why I'm asking, but I'm sure there are people who have no interest in knowing, or just don't care. But I'll gladly tell if you're interested or curious enough to ask.) Any help is appreciated! :)
 
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On mallets the front set of drivers and cylinders is completely independent from the rear set and could be at any rotational position with respect to the rear set. Both sets were quartered of course but no relationship existed between the two via any sort of mechanical connection. The front set was more apt to slip so whatever angular configuration may have existed when the loco started off probably did not exist when it got to the end of its route.

As for a reservoir between the front and rear cylinders- I've never heard of one but that doesn't mean one might not exist.


Ben
 
I don't quite agree with Ben. While I do agree there was no mechanical connection the front set of drivers depended on the rear set for it's steam supply, so if the front set lost traction it would simply loose power until the rear set supplied more steam via the exhaust of the rear cylinders. Except in the case of some Malletts which had a simpling valve, the simpling valve when opened, would take steam from the rear cylinder supply and feed it directly to the front cylinders which would then convert the loco from double expansion to single expansion.

Cheers,
Bill69
 
Yes - some mallets had the ability to supply high pressure steam to the front cylinders when starting (Y6B for exmple I think) but as I recall this was limited to no more then 5 MPH and possibly a bit less. Definitely gave the loco a kick in the caboose when starting out, lol.

The front cylinders steam supply is controlled by two things:
1. The rear set delivering steam during its exhaust cycle.
2. The front sets control valves (usually D-slide valves since the pressure wasn't high enough to require piston valves) allowing steam to enter.

I would think in some combinations (including front engine wheel slip) things could get a bit out of whack. Front engine ready for steam but none being exhausted by the rear set - rear set delivering steam but front set not ready to accept it.

Hence his original question: was there some sort of reservoir between the output of the rear set and input of the front set? I don't know but I'd think if there was it would tend to smooth things out during wheel slip for example.

Ben
 
You have explained it a bit better than I did Ben but we are on the same track. I have never heard of a compound having a steam reservoir between the two sets of drivers either. When setting up locos I tend to keep the two sets of drivers in synchronisation if it is a Mallett but let them run without synchronisation if it is a simple expansion articulated loco i.e. the Big Boy.

Cheers,
Bill69
 
So, what about the de Glehn system? Did the positions of the main rods of the inside cylinders have to be quartered in relation to the outside main rods, or was it like the Mallets? Anyone know?
 
As far as I know all articulated engines run un-synchronized. Mallet or simple. Even the 4-4-4-4 (T1) was un-synchronized (and yes I know - its not an articulated, lol).

At a guess the slight gain in efficiency due to synchronization wasn't worth the added complexity or effort.

Ben
 
The de Glehn system has the low pressure cylinders driving the same bogey as the high pressure cylinders. Very early de Glehn system locos did not have link rods so they would not have to be quartered with the high pressure cylinders, however later versions did have link rods so they would have to be. It would not matter whether they were working with i.e. on the same stroke as the outside cylinders or at 90 degrees. Remembering that steam engines use double acting cylinders the inside cylinders could be on the pull stroke while the outside cylinders were on the push stroke. I do not know which way they were set up, I will endeavour to mike some enquiries for you. NZR did run a couple of de Glehn system locos notably the A class 1906 and the X class 1908.

Cheers,
Bill69

Cheers,
Bill69
 
That certainly applied in New Zealand. The low pressure cylinders on the X class were 22" dia. so would not fit inside the frames.
There is an X class under restoration by the Fielding & Districts Steam Rail Society #442 so I will see what I can find out from them.

Cheers,
Bill69
 
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I hadn't thought of that either but small as they are (capacity-wise) they could act as a reservoir to some extent since their volume would probably be larger then the rear cylinders but smaller then the front ones .

According to the MR cyclopedia the Y6B had cylinders of 25 and 39 inch diameter and both with a bore of 32 inches. Assuming my sums are correct (fat chance, lol) the rear cylinders were about 9 cubic feet and the front ones 22 cubic feet. Looking at various loco plans I'd guess the steam pipes between the two were somewhere in between (volume wise). I'd think a true reservoir would be at least twice the volume of the front cylinders but since that would have been impractical on a steam loco using those steam pipes makes sense but that begs the question - why weren't they bigger (in diameter) then they were? They had to be there to deliver steam so why not make them bigger for a increased smoothness of steam delivery.

An interesting discussion gents.

Ben
 
Interesting indeed! Maybe they didn't think there was enough steam to warrant a larger diameter. Who knows? But I would like to keep things on topic as possible, though.

Alright, my next question is going to require telling why I started the thread in the first place. To make a long story short, I have designed a theoretical compounding system for a 0-4-2ST steam locomotive based on Talyllyn No. 4 for a narrow gauge railroad of my fantasies. The system is primarily based on the de Glehn system, except the two cylinder sets are completely separated (except for the pipes). The HP cylinders are outside the frame, facing forward, connected directly to the back drive wheel. The LP cylinders are inside the frame, facing backwards at an upward angle, connected directly to the front drive axil; the LP cylinders are standard double acting oscillating cylinders to eliminate the need for a second valve gear (pretty much like this:http://www.animatedengines.com/oscillatingsteam.html), thus saving space and complication. My plan is to have the steam superheated before it's used in the HP cylinders, and then afterwards resuperheated to (hopefully and possibly) reduce the required size of the LP cylinders. The part about the system I'm not sure about is the quartering of the main rods. My current plans have the outside main rods quartered at 180 degrees of each other, the inside rods quartered at 180 degrees, and the inside rods quartered at 90 degrees counterclockwise of the outside rods. In other words, if you look at the locomotive on the right side and the outside main rod is at the bottom most position, the inside main rod is at the right most position. So here's my question, will that quartering setup work (at all?), or should I change the quartering? I'm thinking if it needs to be changed, it would be changed to outside rods at 90 degrees counterclockwise, inside rods at 90 degrees counterclockwise, and inside rods at 180 degrees of ouside rods. I know that you guys aren't experts at this kind of thing, but surely someone whould have some sort of idea (!). (Hope I've explained it well enough!)
 
Phil

I think reality would get in the way in several areas.

! Sealing the valving faces of the oscillating cylinders would be a problem, even if it could be achieved while new, as it wears the steam would leak. It works on a model because the pressure is low and models aren't expected to run for thousands of hours. The weight of the cylinders would be a problem, and in addition there would be no way to control the timing and duration of the steam admission which would lead to an overall loss of efficiency.

2 I don't think that re-heating the exhaust steam from the high pressure cylinder would gain anything, any increase in pressure there would create a back pressure at the exhaust of the high pressure cylinder which would then reduce the effort it can exert.

To be honest, if this would work then I would expect it to have been tried and used.

Peter
 
! Sealing the valving faces of the oscillating cylinders would be a problem, even if it could be achieved while new, as it wears the steam would leak. It works on a model because the pressure is low and models aren't expected to run for thousands of hours. The weight of the cylinders would be a problem, and in addition there would be no way to control the timing and duration of the steam admission which would lead to an overall loss of efficiency.

I hadn't thought about that (or knew). But I'm not sure if I want to use a second of valve gear, though. Seems like too much of a complication to me. Hmmm... Going to have to rethink.

2 I don't think that re-heating the exhaust steam from the high pressure cylinder would gain anything, any increase in pressure there would create a back pressure at the exhaust of the high pressure cylinder which would then reduce the effort it can exert.

Chapelon successfully used resuperheating on his de Glehn rebuilds to reduce temperature variation and it did improve performance, so it would seem that there would be an advantage in using resuperheating (which is one reason I included it in the design). In fact, L.D. Porta used it on his locomotive, "Argentina", which is considered a succes. But I dodn't know if it affected cylinder size at all, though. So I might have have to reconsider resuperheating.
 
Hi,

It seems there are a number misconceptions about compound locomotives around. If high pressure steam expands, it cools which may cause condensation which increases steam consumption and in the process cools the cylinders too. In the next stroke part of the steam is needed to reheat the cylinders, which increases steam consumption again. The compound engine attempts to minimize this by expanding steam in two stages through two different (usually pairs of) cylinders, which operate at different pressure and temperature levels. This way steam consumption may be reduced by 10 to 15 %. The price for this a heavy and complicated steam engine. The beneficial effects of compounding may be eaten up by increased mechanical friction within the more complicated engine, as well as friction between steam flowing through the two sets of valves and connecting pipes. Chapelon's successes with reconstructing older French compound locomotives were mainly due to his increasing diameters of steam ducts, and thus improving steam flow.
The design of compound locomotives varied considerably. With the exception of Anatole Mallet's articulated locomotives, they had rigid frames. And with the exception of Francis Webb's compounds, high- and low pressure cylinders were invariably mechanically linked. This could be either by having all cylinders working on one axle. During the 1890s two cylinder compounds with three coupled axles were quite popular as goods engines. Four cylinder express engines could have all cylinders act on one axle. They could be either single expansion or compound engines. Many famous German Pacific compound express locomotives like the Baden class IVf or the Bavarian class S3/6 were built that way. The disadvantage was that there was considerable strain on the bearings of the single driven axle. Usually the high pressure cylinders were between the frames and the low pressure cylinders at the outside.
A more advantageous design was to have the two sets of cylinders work on different axles, which (with the notable exception of Webb's componds) were mechanically connected by connecting rods. De Glehn's compounds, which became particular popular in France were fairly unique because they had the low pressure cylinders between the frames. The reason for this was, that his compound express locomotives were derived from English style two cylinder single expansion engines, which had inside cylinders. The power of these locomotives could not longer increased by increasing cylinder diameters because of the constricted space. So he added a pair of outside cylinders, which functioned as high pressure cylinders, retaining the large diameter inside cylinders as low pressure cylinders.
Newer designs like the Baden class IV h locomotive, the best and swan song of the German Pacific compound express locomotives had two driven axles as well, but like the other German compounds the high pressure cylinders between the frames and the low pressure cylinders outside.

Quite a different approach to cope with the problem a adiabatic cooling of expanding steam was superheating. Here the steam temperature was raised to upt to 400 decrees Celsius in the superheater. At this temperature range cooling would not cause any condensation. It used heat energy still contained in the combustion fumes, which would otherwise escape through the smoke stack. The superheater also had no moving parts and required thus only little maintenance. Its disadvantage was, that it increased the boiler weight and needed heat resistant cylinder oil for lubricating the cylinders. Once the latter problem had been overcome, even better savings of steam could be attained with single expansion engines.
Of course superheating could be combined with compounding, but as both methods attempted the solve the same problem, the results were marginal, since superheating improved steam consumption of compound locomotives by a few percent only. It did, however add the disadvantages, particularly cost and weight of a compound engine with increased cost and weight of a boiler fitted with a superheater.
A much more efficient way to optimize steam locomotives was to dispense with the complicated compound engine altogether, the saved weight not only compensated the weight of the superheater, but also allowed to fit a larger boiler to the locomotive, which would produce more steam, thus allowing for a more powerful locomotive.
To my knowledge André Chapelon did investigate the design of very large six cylinder locomotive, with intermediate superheating. Since France, however, decided after the War to abandon steam traction alltogether in favour of 25 kV 50 cycle AC electric traction, these projects came to naught.

Cheers,

Konni
 
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So basiclly I need to rethink my theoretical compounding system? (That may have not been your point or what you where getting at, but that's kinda what I got out of it. Apologies if I'm assuming too much.)
 
Quite frankly, I cannot see a reason for having a 4 cylinder compound engine with a narrow gauge loco. You might want to have a closer look at the historical development of compound locos.
Cheers,

Konni
 
I see. I mainly developed the idea to hopefully save on fuel costs, but from what you've said it wouldn't really pay off. I guess I'll have to do more research.
 
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