Some questions about TransDEM

I think most of us were as well rather perplexed at first.

I'm really at a loss why you get an error using USGS 2005 unless of course the DEM doesn't have any track on it or falls outside the continental United States. That file pretty much covers border to border and coast-to-coast.

I've used the Tiger data from the same source you are getting from for individual counties if I know the county name etc. and have never had that error pop up that I can think of anyway.

I remember using Hog years ago and if I recall it "seemed" rather difficult at the time. I got rather frustrated right off the bat with TransDem because running Windows 7 64-bit the first version I got after purchase (which was a couple of updates ago) would throw a Windows error trying to open more than one raster map. That was extremely frustrating lucky I had a laptop that I could put XP on and it worked just fine and Roland quickly updated and solved the issue.

But I'll outline the steps I go through just to be boring and maybe you might see something...

1. I go to the seamless server and select the area I want, I download it after changing the default to geotiff.

2. I unzip the file or files into their own directories, I open TransDem and open each Geotiff and then save it as a dem repeating for how ever many files I have.

3. I then open the dem, and then add each additional dem and till I get everything in there and then save it back as a merged dem.

4. Then I open the route and select the USGS 2005 and it puts the blue polygon line down.

5. I then go back to open route, simple route editor new route, and then go back into it a third time and select polygon.

6. Then I trace over the USGS route as close as I can using the zoom were needed.

7. Then select route, close all routes and I'm left with the route I just created which is simplistic enough to pull raster maps or map tiles along the route.

8. Then I select raster map web mapping services and get a 24K set of rasters along the route.

9. Then I close all raster maps and do the same thing using the map tile servers, saving each different set in their own directory.

I pretty much learned this from trial and error and for what it's worth I've not found too many that I've not been able to get to work. Occasionally I'll grab too big an area and due to the 4 GB limitation can't merge all the dems into one big file. But I think I picked up some of it from the documentation and the rest from Gisa's videos.

I think once you find a process that works well for you, and get over the initial frustration and learning curve, you'll be like I am and can't fathom ever creating a route without it. When I think back to some of the early stuff that I pulled, makes me cringe. I was almost to the breaking point trying to get something on the texture to be readable when it donned on me to use wire frame mode, talk about feeling stupid :hehe:
 
In step 4. If I stopped there and imported to Trainz, would the blue polygon line show up in surveyor?

Yes if you had the the following checked on the export dialog box...

td10.jpg



You can set the line width but I usually leave it as shown...
 
and import them respectively into each using the dialog box.

Web mapping service is right on the front at top right

Tile server you click settings them import...
 
Good morning, the time difference has cut in here.

Let me thank mrscsi first for all the insight provided last night.


Before coming back to vector data let me get back to the basics again.

My recommendation to leave TIGER aside for a moment is important to find access to TransDEM. You will need a fresh, unbiased mind to understand the approach TransDEM takes. TransDEM is not simply an improved and automated 1:1 copy of the MicroDEM/HOG procedure. While the overall goal is very much the same, the steps and the data used to get there are slightly different.

For this reason I urgently ask new users and particularly those with previous MicroDEM/HOG experience to carefully read and actually play the tutorials.

First of all, the "Muengsten" tutorial (Page 41 in the TransDEM Trainz manual). It shows the types of geo data in TransDEM and notably the usage of raster maps. This will be unfamiliar to the MicroDEM/HOG/TIGER user but plays a very important role in TransDEM. At the end of this tutorial the user will see the result and its visual appearance in the Trainz route. It will definitely look different to TIGER lines.

Then, after the new user has seen how the geo data and particularly the raster data appears in Trainz, the next steps would be learning how to acquire such raster data. And that's where I recommend the Map Tile tutorial (p 130, TransDEM main manual) and the WMS tutorial (p. 113, same manual).

I am sorry to sound repetitive here, but I cannot emphasize it often enough how important these simple tutorials are to understand the way TransDEM works. And playing these tutorials will also provide answers to one or two items in the FAQ list.



To the role of vector data in TransDEM: It serves two purposes: One is that of a filter in processing geo data. The other is the ability of converting vectors to Trainz splines objects. For the latter you will need high precision vectors but not for the former. High precision means large scale. Scale applies to vector maps just as it applies to raster maps but it is less obvious. The USGS National Atlas is "low" scale. TIGER is just "medium" scale. That's the reason why you do not find many references to TIGER in combination with TransDEM. If I remember correctly TIGER is only 1:160,000 while we usually work with 1:24,000 for a US route in TransDEM.

The following screenshot shows a short section from a famous piece of US railroad history. 1:24k raster map, on top of a 1 arc sec NED DEM. It also shows a vector line, railroads in National Atlas, the link mrscsi kindly provided. You can see what I mean by low scale.



TIGER is only slightly better. This posting is a few years old but shows the usage of TIGER data in TransDEM: http://forums.auran.com/trainz/showpost.php?p=245423. I have not tested it since, as I do not recommend TIGER due to its rather low accuracy.
 
Last edited:
Let me thank mrscsi first for all the insight provided last night.

Let me clarify, it was really the blind leading the blind:cool:

What I found weird was that he got the same error when using USGS 2005, which led me to believe that there may be something more wrong than I'm capable of helping with.

That file has put a route on every DEM I have downloaded and created that falls within the continental United States that actually has rail that is.

And as I explained to him I use it as a starting point or guide to lay my own more simple route to use getting Raster maps and map tiles. Once I get the Google maps down I'll go back over it zoomed in and lay a very highly detailed and accurate route and save that. I normally lay the track in surveyor and may graduate one day to letting TransDem lay my track:)
 
I just tried to walk through the WMS tutorial on p. 113 with mixed results. I was able to get the WMS client configured correctly for the US but I wasn't able to achieve the same results as the tutorial.

I'm still confused with the overall concepts of TransDEM. If I understood these better I think I could make some progress. Here's a few questions:
  • Why do we need WMS and Map Tiles? Is it just personal preference? Do I need to use both on all my routes I create for Trainz?
  • What is the purpose of polylines? Do these lines show up in the Trainz surveyor map or are the used by TransDEM to identify the track and where to generate maps?
  • Are we using the maps to lay the track in surveyor? There are no lines like the MicroDEM/HOG process. Correct?
  • Why do we need to download vector data if we have to manually trace the path of track for TransDEM?
 
Last edited:
I just tried to walk through the WMS tutorial on p. 113 with mixed results. I was able to get the WMS client configured correctly for the US but I wasn't able to achieve the same results as the tutorial.

I'm still confused with the overall concepts of TransDEM. If I understood these better I think I could make some progress. Here's a few questions:
  • Why do we need WMS and Map Tiles? Is it just personal preference? Do I need to use both on all my routes I create for Trainz?
  • What is the purpose of polylines? Do these lines show up in the Trainz surveyor map or are the used by TransDEM to identify the track and where to generate maps?
  • Are we using the maps to lay the track in surveyor? There are no lines like the MicroDEM/HOG process. Correct?
  • Why do we need to download vector data if we have to manually trace the path of track for TransDEM?

Ok I'll try to answer...

WMS and Map tiles, they are very high detail images that are placed slightly underground that when viewed in surveyor in wireframe mode gives you a high detail webmap or ortho photo vs just ground texture that is not as highly detailed.

They are not "needed" in the route and you actually delete them after you are done building. They are just an aid that hog doesn't offer.

"polylines?" Yes they can show up and yes they can even lay water, roads, track or any other kind of spline right into the map. I am still discovering what they can do and I am sure when I find out everything they can do Roland will have added more functionality to them :hehe:

"Are we using the maps to lay the track in surveyor?" Again you can, what I mean by that is if you put a high detailed raster map on the dem and IN TRANSDEM lay polylines very accurately along the route on that map transdem can and will lay that track for you. you can even choose what track and can add any kuid you want. I have yet to find any vector data down-loadable that I want to use to have transdem lay track. Some have very sharp bends and can cause weird looking track. I can see that using polylines to lay accurate track is possible and I've done it, I haven't mastered junctions yet but laying track where all I have to do is make the connections and smooth track is something I do regularly.

"Why do we need to download vector data if we have to manually trace the path of track for TransDEM?" Downloaded vector data is usually "too complex" to use to download wms or map tiles "along that route" which means it may have too many little spurs or other data which make following it automatically difficult.

I trace over and make a "simpler" version just for the propose of using it to get wms and map tiles.

Hope these answers help. These videos helped me more than anything else http://forum.transdem.de/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=10&sid=88342212a27c7f1d324c563021dd2c7c
 
Last edited:
So the polylines are there just to tell TransDEM how much map to use in Trainz surveyor...

What if I was basing my new project on a route that has been abandoned for 35 years. I doubt there is vector data available for it. How would I tell TransDEM what maps to pull or use?
 
So the polylines are there just to tell TransDEM how much map to use in Trainz surveyor...

What if I was basing my new project on a route that has been abandoned for 35 years. I doubt there is vector data available for it. How would I tell TransDEM what maps to pull or use?

There are all kinds of archival data available you might get lucky.

What I do alot is open the dem, then just put a polyline across it and pull a line of raster maps, then lower it and repeat until I have a complete raster map mosaic and most rasters (at least here in arizona) show abandoned track. So I could conceivably make the Douglas to Yuma run featured in the movie(s) 3:10 to Yuma...

The rasters all show the abandoned grades and water towers...

"how much map to use" I am just not sure I understand. You can create "maps" (what I call the finished product imported into trainz) without using any polylines.

Here is a raster showing old abandoned track
oldtrack.png
 
Last edited:
Maybe I still don't really understand what a polyline is.

I thought I have to somehow generate a line (polyline) in TrandDEM on my DEM map. It could be manually or from a vector data file. This is the only way to tell to tell TransDEM what raster maps to use.

I think I'm asking how is it possible to use Google maps (these are rasters right) images on my new map in Trainz like you did above if there is no vector data available for my old abandoned route?
 
Last edited:
Maybe I still don't really understand what a polyline is.

I thought I have to somehow generate a line (polyline) in TrandDEM on my DEM map. It could be manually or from a vector data file. This is the only way to tell to tell TransDEM what raster maps to use.

I think I'm asking how is it possible to use Google maps (these are rasters right) images on my new map in Trainz like you did above if there is no vector data available for my old abandoned route?

All you have to do is use the simple route editor and you can place polylines anywhere on the dem you want.

The wms and map tile server will follow any polyline if it is simple.

Downloading vector data is cool but as i said earlier I use downloaded data as a guide at first to let me know where to make my simple lines. If I dont have a download source and I want rasters for the entire dem just placing a horizontal polyline across and getting line after line of rasters being careful to overlap correctly gives me a raster map where I can then find the abandoned routes and draw my own vector data...
 
I think I'm asking how is it possible to use Google maps (these are rasters right) images on my new map in Trainz like you did above if there is no vector data available for my old abandoned route?

I consider google maps and google photos to be map tiles, the wms maps which look more like a surveyors map or city planning map is what I call Raster maps.

Under wms I select USA MS Research Maps/USGS Raster Graphics (topo maps) with the following settings... (map size and scale)

raster.jpg


With those settings you get great resolution if you use it as the main texture for the map. In other words while it isnt as clear as a maptile when used as the texture it is somewhat readable in surveyor...

Which is why I use maptiles exported as utm tiles just under the surface they give 100 times greater resolution in wireframe mode so I can lay track/roads place buildings and even shrubbery with much greater detail using utm tiles...

That said when I am done building the route I delete the utms from cmp and then go back into the route in surveyor and under the menu select delete missing assets and resave the route and they are gone...
 
Last edited:
Thanks mrscsi. That makes perfect sense. But lets say I don't want to create raster maps for the entire DEM.

I've created a DEM for my project the Frisco High Line. The DEM runs from Clinton, Mo south a little past Boliver, Mo. I've had the DEM merged in TransDEM for over a week. That was fairly easy for me but it's the next part I'm stumped on.

Reading the manual and following all of the tutorials I would think creating raster maps would be the next logical step but again this is abandoned track and I'm not sure how easy it will be to find vector data.

Ideally I would like to import a "combined" google maps image into my surveyor map. I could then lay the track in surveyor along the abandoned line image.

This is a large DEM map as it is now. If I were to draw horizontal poylines I'm afraid TransDEM might meltdown. There is a good portion of this DEM that could be trimmed away at the appropriate step but I'm not sure when that would be.

What should my next step be to get this into Trainz surveyor?
 
After reading you last post maybe raster maps over google map tiles is the better choice. Isn't it just a personal preference thing?
 
Back
Top